FV tire discussion

The Hoosier tire contract is up at the end of 2025. However SCCA usually signs the contract the year prior to make sure everything is in place.

There has been a lot of talk of the FV community not being particularly happy with the current FV tire. Now is our time to talk about it before we get locked into another 3 years.

The way I see it we have the following options

1. Stick with the current spec slick

2. Go back to the old slick that has more grip and seemed to have the same longevity as the spec tire.

3. Ask for a more durable slick

4. Allow the Yokohamas to be scored and run with the slicks (would allow cross over from CCS and NEFV). They'd be a bit slower but for example like this year you could run on Yokohamas in the 3 events just to qualify and buy a set of slicks for the runoffs.

5. Ask Hoosier for a radial that is equal to the Yokohama. (The NEFV Hoosier tire seems to not be checking all the boxes.)

6. Switch to the Yokohama nationally as its a proven tire.

We've got other things we're working on to get cars on track but we need to have this discussion now before the contract is signed.

I personally would be good with option 4 as it gives people options and avoids the slick vs radial debate.

This discussion is for national FV racing and not in an effort to change those that are already on radials. They're happy with what they have, let's talk about what we want going forward

Would like to hear some other opinions.

-Brian

I am also in favor of option 4. It simply allows the CCS/DZC tire as an alternate .. to allow it to qualify for the Runoffs (if anyone cares to), but still ALLOWS the FV numbers to be RECOGNIZED in SCCA and the "national" or "Majors" numbers will be appropriately COUNTED.

We all want to have NUMBERS and the difference between the Yokos and Hoosiers is getting so close it's hardly worth noting.. but the Yokos are WAY WAY cheaper.. as long as the RIMS are also allowed to accommodate then. It really isn't logical to NOT ALLOW a *SLOWER* tire to be run in the same (CLASS/)group as the faster slick. The speeds are WAY more compatible for the group than the other classes (F6/FF) which are ~20 seconds A LAP faster than Vees at most tracks.
Steve, FV80

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B Farnham

The Hoosier tire contract is up at the end of 2025. However SCCA usually signs the contract the year prior to make sure everything is in place.

There has been a lot of talk of the FV community not being particularly happy with the current FV tire. Now is our time to talk about it before we get locked into another 3 years.

The way I see it we have the following options

1. Stick with the current spec slick

2. Go back to the old slick that has more grip and seemed to have the same longevity as the spec tire.

3. Ask for a more durable slick

4. Allow the Yokohamas to be scored and run with the slicks (would allow cross over from CCS and NEFV). They'd be a bit slower but for example like this year you could run on Yokohamas in the 3 events just to qualify and buy a set of slicks for the runoffs.

5. Ask Hoosier for a radial that is equal to the Yokohama. (The NEFV Hoosier tire seems to not be checking all the boxes.)

6. Switch to the Yokohama nationally as its a proven tire.

We've got other things we're working on to get cars on track but we need to have this discussion now before the contract is signed.

I personally would be good with option 4 as it gives people options and avoids the slick vs radial debate.

This discussion is for national FV racing and not in an effort to change those that are already on radials. They're happy with what they have, let's talk about what we want going forward

Would like to hear some other opinions.

-Brian

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Why not a combo of 2 and 4? I’d love to have the old compound back since the current compound doesn’t last any longer. Unless that would create too wide of a discrepancy between slicks and radials. We don’t have anyone radials out west so I don’t know.

I don’t think I am saying anything out of school, as I have stated these opinions before, even on ApexSpeed:

My comments

1. Stick with the current spec slick
2. Go back to the old slick that has more grip and seemed to have the same longevity as the spec tire.
3. Ask for a more durable slick

I don’t know why people think that the current tire does not last longer than the last 55 compound. I used to only get 7 or heat cycles max on a 55, and that is with a lot of tire flipping. (National guys would only use them for 3 or 4) , I now get about 12 on the spec tire before I “feel” a drop off.
However, I tend to take it easy on the first run, try never to use new tires in a race, and because of the way we run races in NE, we rarely have a race over 20 minutes. I have not flipped a tire since going to the spec tire - maybe I am not maximizing its potential? I do rotate side to side depending on the track. It might be that the length and number of Major races in a typical weekend and the need to get every tenth means that the tires are abused more than at Regionals.
A question - are you losing the fronts or the rears first?

Now here is something interesting. Many of us in the NE have been running rears all around. It actually goes back to the consummate cheapskate, Gene Grimes back in the 90’s. If you are going to consider a radial, which is used that way, why not consider running 4 rears? Let's suppose Hoosier sells 700 tires a year for Majors. Would it make sense to sell 700 of one size rather than 350 and 350? Plus this lets you rotate tires to even tire wear. My son set the fastest lap at this year's Lime Rock Regional, and Nick Galuardi has been winning races for years here with that formula.

4. Allow the Yokohamas to be scored and run with the slicks (would allow cross over from CCS and NEFV). They'd be a bit slower but for example like this year you could run on Yokohamas in the 3 events just to qualify and buy a set of slicks for the runoffs.

Having been around FV for a long time, I have seen the radial go from 13” to 14” to 15” and many different tire manufacturers and models. We might be in a golden era right now, but what if Yokohama decides to make changes to their tires - are we back in the same place? And without a national contract, what would Hoosier do? Would we be right back to a tire war? Will Yokohama step up and support FV on some level on a National basis?

If you are not going to be competitive in Majors and you are just trying to keep numbers up, then older slicks would probably be a better solution. I used to get takeoffs from Roger and many others used to run on “free” tires” Does this happen much anymore? Really takes the tire cost out of the equation.

5. Ask Hoosier for a radial that is equal to the Yokohama. (The NEFV Hoosier tire seems to not be checking all the boxes.)

I was not around for the test at Palmer and have only seen the tires once. From what I understand these are not a final product, but just a “proof of concept”. As I have stated before, if Hoosier (Continental) can not make a tire that is as good as or better than the Yokohama (or some other benefit in cost or performance) then they are wasting their time. I feel we have not seen the final product. With the technology showing on their TrackAttack Pro tires, I hope this is more than wishful thinking.

6. Switch to the Yokohama nationally as it's a proven tire.

See my comments under number 4 and 5.

Are we to the point where there is a break between Majors and Regional racing not just in tires, but in engines, shocks, trannys, data acquisition, etc. While they are essentially the same car, has the gap between them grown so much as to consider some restrictions on regionals within the same envelope? Or is it a car run at Majors that needs to be brought back a bit, which would be the case with going to a radial. Are the Majors drivers okay with that? Going a little slower for all the cars in the class to run at lower cost?

ChrisZ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B Farnham

There has been a lot of talk of the FV community not being particularly happy with the current FV tire. Now is our time to talk about it before we get locked into another 3 years.

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Where is the science regarding the current Hoosier SFV tire. This tire was carefully developed before it was introduced and compared favorably to the old FV tire at the time. Talk from the FV community just does not cut it. Spec Miata is very happy with this same compound relative to grip and wear.

Allowing the radials is fine, but I do not think it is going to accomplish what you want for a numbers increase. Most the radials competitors are regional level and are not going to spring for the Runoffs.

Brian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FVRacer21

I don’t know why people think that the current tire does not last longer than the last 55 compound.

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I can't help but feel a recent National Champion & consistent Runoffs front-runner may know how long they last when being run hard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FVRacer21

Many of us in the NE have been running rears all around. It actually goes back to the consummate cheapskate, Gene Grimes back in the 90’s. If you are going to consider a radial, which is used that way, why not consider running 4 rears?

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That is not a terrible idea, and is something that should be considered even if "nothing changes" for FV slicks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FVRacer21

but what if Yokohama decides to make changes to their tires.

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I have explained this a couple times, but the Yokohama tire is used in a multitude of other series. They have many requirements that limit what Yokohama can/will do. If they change, they lose those series.
That is part of why using an "outside" tire is a good idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FVRacer21

Or is it a car run at Majors that needs to be brought back a bit, which would be the case with going to a radial. Are the Majors drivers okay with that?

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That is going to be an issue... the top "have" guys are not going to want to give up their advantage to the "have nots". Same issue when a Spec Manifold is suggested.
On this note, while I understand their position... but this is FV. Everyone should be on a more level playing field. This is critical to keeping FV alive & well into the future. And I say that as someone who has a well prepped & expensive car.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Matt Clark

I can't help but feel a recent National Champion & consistent Runoffs front-runner may know how long they last when being run hard.

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A) At best this is one data point. We have no idea what he requires of his car to run at the front.

As a group we have no idea what makes a good FV tire. Asking Hoosier to solve a problem that is not clearly defined is only going to make things more expensive.

B) What is the point of a Hoosier non-DOT radial. How could it possibly have equal grip, be cheaper and last longer than the SFV tire?

Brian

I doubt that Hoosier (Continental Tire) will spend any research on making a comparable tire to the Yokohama. They may use an existing mold if one exists and an off the shelf compound. As mentioned earlier about FV drivers buying 700 tires it's not even a drop in the bucket to Continenetal. If you take 700 tires at roughly $250 each it comes out to roughly $175,000, but to put perspective on it it equals .00000357% of Continental's $49,000,000,000 gross. Yokohama is producing the tire for the masses and it sells well and Driverz, CCA and some in the Northeast just happen to use it. I'd say the stability is with Yokohama...Just my 2 cents

Quote:

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Originally Posted by grapefarmeral

I doubt that Hoosier (Continental Tire) will spend any research on making a comparable tire to the Yokohama. They may use an existing mold if one exists and an off the shelf compound. As mentioned earlier about FV drivers buying 700 tires it's not even a drop in the bucket to Continenetal. If you take 700 tires at roughly $250 each it comes out to roughly $175,000, but to put perspective on it it equals .00000357% of Continental's $49,000,000,000 gross. Yokohama is producing the tire for the masses and it sells well and Driverz, CCA and some in the Northeast just happen to use it. I'd say the stability is with Yokohama...Just my 2 cents

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They basically have, with their Track Attack tire. That is their answer to the Yokohama (and others), but they just do not have it in a 195 or 185 size yet. Whether they actually want to make the correct sizes for us or not it another issue, but they literally are going after the Yokohama market.

"Most the radials competitors are regional level and are not going to spring for the Runoffs."

Perhaps not, but if the FV radial tire numbers are included in the official car participation count It helps keep the class strong.

I see no downside to allowing the DOT radials on the wheels used by Driverz Cup and Challenge Cup.

I ran ONLY the Challenge Cup tire this year, in the 195/50R15 size, Yokohama A052. I ran them on Cip1.com wheels, 5.5" x 15" and 4" backspacing. They are a powdercoat chrome finish aluminum wheel resembling the 10 slot VW wide 5s. They weigh 13 pounds each, a half-pound more than the 12.5 pound minimum wheel weight. They were $99 each with free shipping last winter.

EDIT: Right now the silver version is $120.99. Also, Mobelwagen makes a similar wheel, and they are $125 at the moment. Pay attention to wheel hardware: the Cip1 wheels use 60 degree taper and the Mobelwagen use ball-seat(like OE VW). They will need LONGER lug bolts or studs and nuts as the aluminum wheels have a much thicker flange than steel.

So far, I have 35 heat cycles this year. I plan to get at least another 35 out of them and run the entire next season of Challenge Cup plus some NER SCCA events and maybe a DriverZ Cup date. They cost $745 for a set of 4. $375 a season is pretty cheap for a race tire.

There is NO possible way you could get the same combination of performance, durability, and cost savings with slicks. Period.

Yokohama isn't going to change their tire construction. It is a 200TW radial made specifically to be legal for AutoX events. I believe it is one of the only ones available in the size we use. Many more are available in 205/50R15, but I think we all agree they are too wide.

I am not opposed to slicks or letting guys run whichever tire they choose. I agree with option 4, BUT with the caveat that the CCS/Yoko and the Hoosier slicks/rains are the only tire choices.

I wrote a letter to the CRB in reference to the tire discussion we're having. If you support it please write to the crb at https://crbscca.com/ in reference to letter 37632. If enough people write in we will see a response, we saw that with Andrew Abbotts letter.

"The FV Hoosier spec tire contract is up at the end of 2025 and as a class we were looking for some changes before any contract is signed for 2026 and beyond.

The spec tire was brought in around 8 years ago and promised to increase longevity at the expense of some performance. As a class the majority have felt that we haven't gained much in terms of longevity but it has cost us performance. We essentially had a spec tire in place for years before that when Goodyear pulled out around 15-20 years ago. With that we don't really feel that the spec tire contract has benefitted the class much. The FVS tires themselves cost more than other classes with much larger tires (FE2 tires are cheaper than FV tires to buy, that doesn't add up when participation is similar.)

For years the Canadian FV's have run Radial tires to save money on costs. Around 10 years ago regional groups in the US have also adapted a radial tire. They did this to save on costs and make FV racing more economical. FV as a whole is an entry level class and has always been the most cost effective in the open wheel ranks. The tire that these series have implemented is the Yokohama Advan A052. They last 1-2 seasons and double as a rain tire. This tire has been recently brought into the NEFV group and has had a positive impact on the number of race weekends some of the competitors are able to run. On slicks they were running around 2 weekends per year and on radial tires that has almost doubled. Its been debated as far as how many heat cycles the current slick can last but its safe to say its in the neighborhood of 6-14 head cycles, compare that to the radial tires that are probably getting 40-50 heat cycles.

As a class at the Majors level there isn't a universal push to go to a radial tire but what I'm proposing is to have the Yokohama tire be allowed to run at majors events and be added to the GCR as an acceptable tire. The tire itself is 1-2 seconds per lap slower at most tracks around the country and would not be an advantage. What its inclusion would do would to allow the 80-100 FVs that currently participate in the NEFV, Challenege cup and DriverZ cup to cross over to majors racing and not have to change a thing on their car. Right now if they want to run a majors event they have to buy a set of slicks and rain tires to come out and compete. This change would increase our numbers as a class by being more inclusive to those running in other series.

If Hoosier wouldn't find this acceptable then we would ask them to produce a comparable tire to the Yokohama that could be included in the GCR as an alternative to the slicks. That tire would need to have the following specs
195/50R15 (A 165 tire or smaller would be ideal to get closer to the slick width but at the very least a 195)
7/32 Starting tread depth
UTQG 200 A A

Hoosier has presented a tire in the NEFV but it does not meet the requirements needed by the class. The tires need to be the same width for fronts and rears for longevity, must be a 195 or smaller, have a tread pattern that can act as a rain tire and have a 200 wear rating. That tire currently being tested doesn't check those boxes.

For the good of the class we would like to allow options to our members and not be forced to run the slick tire. Hoosier has been a great supporter of the class and we would like to stick with them but if they're unable to produce a tire that meets our requirements then we would like the Yokohama to be allowed in as an acceptable tire.

Thank you,
Brian Farnham"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by B Farnham

I wrote a letter to the CRB in reference to the tire discussion we're having. If you support it please write to the crb at https://crbscca.com/ in reference to letter 37632. If enough people write in we will see a response, we saw that with Andrew Abbotts letter.

"The FV Hoosier spec tire contract is up at the end of 2025 and as a class we were looking for some changes before any contract is signed for 2026 and beyond.

The spec tire was brought in around 8 years ago and promised to increase longevity at the expense of some performance. As a class the majority have felt that we haven't gained much in terms of longevity but it has cost us performance. We essentially had a spec tire in place for years before that when Goodyear pulled out around 15-20 years ago. With that we don't really feel that the spec tire contract has benefitted the class much. The FVS tires themselves cost more than other classes with much larger tires (FE2 tires are cheaper than FV tires to buy, that doesn't add up when participation is similar.)

For years the Canadian FV's have run Radial tires to save money on costs. Around 10 years ago regional groups in the US have also adapted a radial tire. They did this to save on costs and make FV racing more economical. FV as a whole is an entry level class and has always been the most cost effective in the open wheel ranks. The tire that these series have implemented is the Yokohama Advan A052. They last 1-2 seasons and double as a rain tire. This tire has been recently brought into the NEFV group and has had a positive impact on the number of race weekends some of the competitors are able to run. On slicks they were running around 2 weekends per year and on radial tires that has almost doubled. Its been debated as far as how many heat cycles the current slick can last but its safe to say its in the neighborhood of 6-14 head cycles, compare that to the radial tires that are probably getting 40-50 heat cycles.

As a class at the Majors level there isn't a universal push to go to a radial tire but what I'm proposing is to have the Yokohama tire be allowed to run at majors events and be added to the GCR as an acceptable tire. The tire itself is 1-2 seconds per lap slower at most tracks around the country and would not be an advantage. What its inclusion would do would to allow the 80-100 FVs that currently participate in the NEFV, Challenege cup and DriverZ cup to cross over to majors racing and not have to change a thing on their car. Right now if they want to run a majors event they have to buy a set of slicks and rain tires to come out and compete. This change would increase our numbers as a class by being more inclusive to those running in other series.

If Hoosier wouldn't find this acceptable then we would ask them to produce a comparable tire to the Yokohama that could be included in the GCR as an alternative to the slicks. That tire would need to have the following specs
195/50R15 (A 165 tire or smaller would be ideal to get closer to the slick width but at the very least a 195)
7/32 Starting tread depth
UTQG 200 A A

Hoosier has presented a tire in the NEFV but it does not meet the requirements needed by the class. The tires need to be the same width for fronts and rears for longevity, must be a 195 or smaller, have a tread pattern that can act as a rain tire and have a 200 wear rating. That tire currently being tested doesn't check those boxes.

For the good of the class we would like to allow options to our members and not be forced to run the slick tire. Hoosier has been a great supporter of the class and we would like to stick with them but if they're unable to produce a tire that meets our requirements then we would like the Yokohama to be allowed in as an acceptable tire.

Thank you,
Brian Farnham"

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Well said, Brian.

1) It is only economical for Hoosier to provide the SFV tire if it is the only mandated exclusive class tire. So we stay with the slicks or go to radials.

Sounds like you should be asking a opinion poll of the class about what type of tire they want.

2) Can it be confirmed by the top series finisher that they raced the whole season on one set of tires?

Brian

For Brian Farnham: Great letter. Just to clarify, the Yokos will last far more than 40-50 heat cycles without losing time. I'll let you know my experience after another season and another 35 cycles. You'll need to ask some of the Cup guys that have run them 60 or more cycles. Because they have.

These tires are not necessarily slower by 1-2 seconds. The difference has been in the tenths of a second at the pointy end, depending on the track. Fastest lap of the 3rd race at Palmer was set by Gerard Owen Callaghan in the spring of 2024. It was 1:50.268 vs 1:50.966 by Chase Johnson on slicks.

For Brian Harding: Sam Ryan won a race(I don't know where and when) on 2 year old tires. I actually bought that old set and am using one of them as a spare. The three others are being used the same way by other guys.

These tires DO NOT behave like slicks/other tires, for example replacing them every year DOES NOT make you faster. Brand new ones are actually slower than a seasoned and rotated set.


https://www.yokohamatire.com/tires/a...IaAg12EALw_wcB

The max permissible load is 1169 pounds PER TIRE at 50 psi cold inflation. That is why they last so long, they are at 25% or so of the max design load. I think the heaviest guy out there is at 1140 pounds, most are right near the 1075 pound Cup Series weight minimum.

"1) It is only economical for Hoosier to provide the SFV tire if it is the only mandated exclusive class tire. So we stay with the slicks or go to radials."

I doubt this is the case Brian. Hoosier may sell just as many tires as they do now as long as both are allowed. They are already losing out sales to the radials. Slick sales *might* even increase as radial entries improve the position of the class and perhaps bring out new competitors that wish to compete at the top level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BLS

I doubt this is the case Brian.

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My thought is Hoosier will view the addition as a breach of to what it considers a Spec tire requirement.

This who idea is just an effort to increase Major event entrant numbers. While the logic of this change would seem helpful, it is likely that it will have no effect on Major event numbers. Nothing should be done to risk the availability of the FVS tire.

Change the class to Radials if they are such a great idea.

Tires are just a part of total racing expenses. I do not think it is the main driver of the Radial series success. There are other things coming into play. In the San Francisco Region we had a very good spec tire and a very good entrant level to start, but eventually the class died. Tire cost is not the controlling factor in a class success. There all a lot of other balls in the air.

Brian

Brian, can't say you are wrong and I have no clue what Hoosier will do in the future. Tires are a major expense, certainly not the only expense. The Challenge Cup and Driverz Cup are FV with nothing but a change in the tires and they are doing pretty well it seems. I can look at the entry's and see that some otherwise majors level racers are choosing to run these series in total are part, which indicates the radial is a very viable series tire. I hope to find out later this year :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

My thought is Hoosier will view the addition as a breach of to what it considers a Spec tire requirement.

Change the class to Radials if they are such a great idea.

Tires are just a part of total racing expenses. I do not think it is the main driver of the Radial series success. There are other things coming into play. In the San Francisco Region we had a very good spec tire and a very good entrant level to start, but eventually the class died. Tire cost is not the controlling factor in a class success. There all a lot of other balls in the air.

Brian

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Some of the comments here come off as trying to be subtle but clearly not succeeding.

Clearly, radial tires are an awesome idea, as evidenced by the UK, Canada, South Africa, Australia, etc. ad-infinitum all using them for YEARS.

Challenge Cup has been a series for over ten years now. Are they successful? Without a question!

Yes, tires are part of the expense of racing. The bigger question is do they have to be this much of the expense?

Yes, I am just a lowly regional racer who has been here 2 seasons(crazy I know to start at 58 years old!). With the radial tire, I am able to attend MORE weekends and have MORE fun without altering my budget.

Let's take the example of a typical New England guy who races 2-3 weekends a year, buying one set of slicks in the spring. Or maybe he wallows around in the back of the pack because his tires are 1-2 years old already.

He buys a set of radials and spends the one-time cost of rims and hardware(studs and nuts or longer bolts). After that first season, he's saving money every time he goes to the track. Slicks are $1100 to $1200 a set now, and not free like they are for some of the sponsored folks. I paid $745 for a set of radials that will last two seasons. All in mounted and balanced for rims, tires, and hardware was about $1350. After the first year, that is less than $375 a season for tires, folks. And that allows me to afford another 2 race weekends without breaking the bank. It's just simple math.

Going a bit further, you need less stuff at the track. No need for: trailer tires, rain tires, or multiple sets of slicks(practice and race) or even tire racks in the trailer. I go to the track with a set on the car and ONE spare tire. That's it. Your trackside workload is greatly reduced. You don't have to load and unload so much stuff each time you go. The net result is you have MORE FUN!

Why is that there are those that are hung up on lap times? The reality is zero change or not that much of a change to even think about. We successfully raced both tires TOGETHER all season in the Northeast. Slicks and radials were interspersed throughout the field(6 weekends).

The fast guys will always be fast, the midfield guys will remain there, and the backmarkers will too. It really doesn't matter which tire "we" are all on.

Humans as a whole are resistant to change. Part of that is the fear of the unknown to them.

To all who haven't tried the radials: try them FIRST, then form an opinion. But if you're repeating what others have said through "internet lore" you need to ask yourself why?

The fact that a 60-plus year old class is THRIVING in some regions is impressive. Let's keep it that way.

I sent a support letter with an estimated cost saving of $8000 to $10000 over 5 years. That is a lot of extra entry fees, or a reduced barrier to budget minded drivers. I also noted that this is the tire every other FV outside the USA is running, along with most FVs in the USA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BLS

The Challenge Cup and Driverz Cup are FV with nothing but a change in the tires and they are doing pretty well it seems.

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You have no science to prove that the radials are the only reason for the Radial series current success. The NE Region FV's are doing fine using the SFV tire. Why is that?

Again... if radials are considered the answer to all our class problems, then why not simply ask to have the radial be made the spec tire? This current mixed tire proposal is lame.

For those of you claiming spectacular radial tire cost savings, at least establish some baseline comparison standards. Say the average regional race who does no more the 3-4 events per season, is not competing for the win, and establish the actual 4 tire purchase cost difference. Using the actual facts is going to let a lot of air out of this radial tire ballon.

Brian

I know a number of you saw a post I did a number of years ago comparing slicks vs radials, this is for the new guys. At the time slicks were a bit less than $800/set and the radials were $300. I felt the only way to compare was number of sessions. With an equal number of sessions I used a ten year period because at the time someone made a comment that if you spread the cost of manifolds (another issue) over ten years it's not expensive. That period works well as the Challenge Cup has passed the ten year mark. Bottom line was the slicks were $30,000 and the radials $1500.. I thought my calculations were wrong so I did the math a few more times and the figures are correct. Personally I'd rather have the extra $28,500..sorry Hoosier.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

You have no science to prove that the radials are the only reason for the Radial series current success. The NE Region FV's are doing fine using the SFV tire. Why is that?

Again... if radials are considered the answer to all our class problems, then why not simply ask to have the radial be made the spec tire? This current mixed tire proposal is lame.

For those of you claiming spectacular radial tire cost savings, at least establish some baseline comparison standards. Say the average regional race who does no more the 3-4 events per season, is not competing for the win, and establish the actual 4 tire purchase cost difference. Using the actual facts is going to let a lot of air out of this radial tire ballon.

Brian

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The only hot air is coming from you, Brian.

I quoted real numbers from this season. Do you need receipts, or is my word enough here? Guys that know me don't doubt me.

Again, for the ones who couldn't unnerstan' it:

One time cost of 5 rims: $99 ea. from cip1.com $495.00
One time cost of 12mm screw-in studs 1.75" long and 60 degree taper lug nuts: $37.00
One used spare for $25.00

That's $557. Those costs could be higher if you choose different wheels or don't catch them on sale. One particular NE naysayer kept telling me the cost was $2000 all-in and that was that.

Tires: one set of 4 for $745, part of a group buy of 40-something tires the NE guys purchased.

All in: $1302.00

I didn't account for mounting and balancing as I have access to a tire machine. But you can add in whatever a current price is.

As an aside, only one wheel needed any weight, the other 4 balanced perfectly without any. Yes, dynamically/electronic machine used.

As I stated, I have put 35 heat cycles on mine at 8 weekends this past season. Can't wait for spring.

I'm putting another comment up because I don't want to edit the above post.

I'm all-in for $1302. Think about that. The cheapest rims today are $120.99 for a silver 3-fifty-6 5.5" x 15" from cip1.com or $165.00 from Mobelwagen for their 520S Interceptor.

Again, $1302.00. Not far off ONE set of FV slicks. But I get 2 years out of them, as this year I have ZERO tire expense.

And next year, in 2026, I'll buy a set of radials and run them for two seasons, splitting the cost 50% for the year.

I want any one of you to put 35 heat cycles on some slicks and then come race me. Come find me at the track, that's where I'll be.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

You have no science to prove that the radials are the only reason for the Radial series current success. The NE Region FV's are doing fine using the SFV tire. Why is that?

Again... if radials are considered the answer to all our class problems, then why not simply ask to have the radial be made the spec tire? This current mixed tire proposal is lame.

For those of you claiming spectacular radial tire cost savings, at least establish some baseline comparison standards. Say the average regional race who does no more the 3-4 events per season, is not competing for the win, and establish the actual 4 tire purchase cost difference. Using the actual facts is going to let a lot of air out of this radial tire ballon.

Brian

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"You have no science to prove that the slicks are the only reason for the slick series current success."
Works both ways. No one is trying to stop the use of the slicks for the national level SCCA racing. Most of us are just saying allow both slicks and radials. It's clear that a large number of people in the NE and SE where the vast majority of Vee's are racing prefer the cost of the radial tire. This part is very clear.

The baseline comparison has been made. Some people just don't like it. After the first season, with your "3-4 events" comparison request, the cost of tires in season 2 and 3 will be zero. 2 sets of slicks per year will be at least $4,000 for those two years.

Real Math beats pretend Science again.

More should use History to not flunk English over and over.


Next up for saving Vee… ban those stupid-expensive manifolds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BLS

"You have no science to prove that the slicks are the only reason for the slick series current success."
Works both ways.

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It is the contention of the Radial groups that radial tires are what made their series successful: Yes or No?

Agreed that radials are cheaper. What you cannot demonstrate is that they are the only reason for the Radial series success. You cannot guarantee is that they will increase FV participation.

Brian

ECONOMIC TRUTH 101:
Make ANYTHING cheaper, and more will buy or participate.

Even a Kindergartener selling lemonade knows this to be a no-brainer.

Using the 2024 Challenge Cup final point standings I estimate that out of 42 competitors that enter races during the season, 30 did 1-2 events.

So the radial tire cost savings did not seem to a great motivation for these 30.

Brian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

Using the 2024 Challenge Cup final point standings I estimate that out of 42 competitors that enter races during the season, 30 did 1-2 events.

So the radial tire cost savings did not seem to a great motivation for these 30.

Brian

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That is perhaps 30 - 60 more events than they would have otherwise done. Your estimate is just an unscientific use of one data point without the required further scouring of other series to determine participation..

Both Challenge Cup and Driverz Cup are growing participation. No one has stated the radial is the only reason. What has been stated is a simple fact, one you ignore as relevant, the only difference in a SCCA FV and Challenge Cup/DriverZ Cup cars are the wheel and tire. That's it.

Since I know you wish for the FV class to thrive and that you work diligently to make a better car, why don't you spell out why you are opposed to the use of the radial? So far all I see is the possibility that Hoosier will not like it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

Using the 2024 Challenge Cup final point standings I estimate that out of 42 competitors that enter races during the season, 30 did 1-2 events.

So the radial tire cost savings did not seem to a great motivation for these 30.

Brian

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Use me as an example if you'd like. I did 2 CC events. Watkins Glen and Summit Point, just getting my feet wet with the radial crowd. I live 60 miles north of NYC, so I am in a good geographic position to attend both NER and CC events.

This past year, I ran ALL SIX NER races, plus the two CC.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Hardingfv32

It is the contention of the Radial groups that radial tires are what made their series successful: Yes or No?

Agreed that radials are cheaper. What you cannot demonstrate is that they are the only reason for the Radial series success. You cannot guarantee is that they will increase FV participation.

Brian

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And you cannot guarantee that radials WON'T increase participation.

There is always more than one reason to any rational human decision.

How about: camaraderie, fair competition, and more track time ON TOP of less tire costs?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by E1pix

ECONOMIC TRUTH 101:
Make ANYTHING cheaper, and more will buy or participate.

Even a Kindergartener selling lemonade knows this to be a no-brainer.

---

LOL, while normally true, and I'm sure it is so with tires, my desire to educate overcomes me :)

There are case studies where certain products lose sales when prices are reduced and increase when prices are increased. Wine and liquor come to mind. Psychology plays a part in this...

Brian: "You cannot guarantee is that they will increase FV participation."

You are absolutely correct. My question for you is do you see any harm to the SCCA races by allowing FV competitors the choice of the current slick (or some revised Hoosier) or the Yoko radial tire? Is your only concern that Hoosier will leave the arena?

I'm not going to comment further as I don't find it useful. I'll just write my letter to the SCCA...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BLS

There are case studies where certain products lose sales when prices are reduced and increase when prices are increased. Wine and liquor come to mind. Psychology plays a part in this...

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Yes, SAP (Spoiled Americans Phenomenon).

Add lodging and vehicles to the list.

Aside, what that sector does has no bearing on rational intellect. ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by E1pix

Yes, SAP (Spoiled Americans Phenomenon).

Add lodging and vehicles to the list.

Aside, what that sector does has no bearing on rational intellect. ;)

---

It applies equally to non-Americans, perhaps more so from what I've seen in the EU :)

SHP, then. :ha:

I can only speak for myself and a few others in Driverz Cup but radials and the lower cost of tires were a big attraction, along with two other factors.

When I decided to get into club/regional FV I was originally thinking vintage for 2 reasons, 1) fewer tires (more expensive but last longer and don't need rains) and 2) the "no contact" rules. This was 2018 and Driverz Cup had just started the year before (I think) in the Southeast. Luckily someone, probably on the forum, suggested I go meet them before making a decision. I went to the Road Atlanta season finale, met Greg, Mitchell and a few others who were working to get the program running. That was all I needed to be convinced to go with DC and the radial tire approach. The third factor that made my decision was 3) single-class FV racing in Drivers Cup (and CCS).

I believe that the radials do attract new, lower budget folks to FV. Affordability attracting drivers compounds the benefits because bigger the class the easier it is to get or buy a single-class spot in a race weekend at a reasonable cost. And important to note that not everyone who starts out at DC/CCS remain at the regional level. We've had numerous DC drivers winning majors and participating at the runoffs. So there is a path for folks looking for affordable, single-class racing who ultimately add to overall runoffs participation.

Just sharing my experience.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rich_G_SC

I can only speak for myself and a few others in Driverz Cup but radials and the lower cost of tires were a big attraction, along with two other factors.

When I decided to get into club/regional FV I was originally thinking vintage for 2 reasons, 1) fewer tires (more expensive but last longer and don't need rains) and 2) the "no contact" rules. This was 2018 and Driverz Cup had just started the year before (I think) in the Southeast. Luckily someone, probably on the forum, suggested I go meet them before making a decision. I went to the Road Atlanta season finale, met Greg, Mitchell and a few others who were working to get the program running. That was all I needed to be convinced to go with DC and the radial tire approach. The third factor that made my decision was 3) single-class FV racing in Drivers Cup (and CCS).

I believe that the radials do attract new, lower budget folks to FV. Affordability attracting drivers compounds the benefits because bigger the class the easier it is to get or buy a single-class spot in a race weekend at a reasonable cost. And important to note that not everyone who starts out at DC/CCS remain at the regional level. We've had numerous DC drivers winning majors and participating at the runoffs. So there is a path for folks looking for affordable, single-class racing who ultimately add to overall runoffs participation.

Just sharing my experience.

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I would also add (in support of Rich's post) that the original goal of the NEFV group was SINGLE CLASS group/racing. CCS took that another step and made it 'more' affordable as well as SINGLE CLASS racing by adding in a spec street radial. The Radial tire savings AND the Single Class racing aspects are THE ITEMS that got this radial thing going and made it fully successful. Brian's questions of 'how do you KNOW the radials are what made it what it is .. successful.. Well.. we don't KNOW for sure which carried the most weight, but NO ONE can argue with the success of the whole program. For MY money, Single Class racing out weighs the radial cost savings, but the RISKS of racing in multi class groups (for me) vastly outweighs any other aspect. The risks of racing in groups with other race cars that are 30+ MPS faster on the straights is just more risk than I'm interested in taking. I would support the inclusion of FST as well as long as they are scored separately. but that's another discussion for another time.
Steve, FV80

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Steve Davis

I would also add (in support of Rich's post) that the original goal of the NEFV group was SINGLE CLASS group/racing. CCS took that another step and made it 'more' affordable as well as SINGLE CLASS racing by adding in a spec street radial. The Radial tire savings AND the Single Class racing aspects are THE ITEMS that got this radial thing going and made it fully successful. Brian's questions of 'how do you KNOW the radials are what made it what it is .. successful.. Well.. we don't KNOW for sure which carried the most weight, but NO ONE can argue with the success of the whole program. For MY money, Single Class racing out weighs the radial cost savings, but the RISKS of racing in multi class groups (for me) vastly outweighs any other aspect. The risks of racing in groups with other race cars that are 30+ MPS faster on the straights is just more risk than I'm interested in taking. I would support the inclusion of FST as well as long as they are scored separately. but that's another discussion for another time.
Steve, FV80

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Steve, that's not quite accurate, if you're speaking to the happenings of the past year. In the Northeast, all we(the radial group) requested was that the regional FVCC class be put back in the supps for all our regional races. The class was in existence, along with Formula First, but mysteriously disappeared. Formula First remained. Hmmmm?

Our intention was to save money and race WITH the other FV drivers in the same race group. That's it. Somehow, here we are.