Years ago the SCCA had Solo 1, a one-car-on-track / run-against-the-clock event on regular road courses like Roebling or CMP. Does this still exist? Trying to justify keeping my Swift DB-1 FF.
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Years ago the SCCA had Solo 1, a one-car-on-track / run-against-the-clock event on regular road courses like Roebling or CMP. Does this still exist? Trying to justify keeping my Swift DB-1 FF.
No, solo 1 is now time trials program or hillclimb program. Time trials is only allows fendered cars, hillclimb allows all types. Penna. Hillclimb Association has two events at Summit Point, next weekend and Labor Day weekend.
Rich
I disagree with that ... from the Time Trials section of the SCCA website..Quote:
Originally Posted by pahillclimber
SCCA TIME TRIALS VEHICLE ELIGIBILITY SCCA Time Trials are open to most four-wheeled vehicles that pass the safety inspection. Different regions, tracks and events may have different rules, so entrants should check with the organizers, rules or supplementary regulations of the event you plan on attending.
1. SCCA Time Trials Events are open to any vehicle that:
1. Meet all of the Safety Level 1 Standards, and when necessary, the SCCA rules required for special construction (GT, Sports Racers, Formula Cars, Specials etc).
2. Has at least four (4) wheels, grouped in equal sets of half of the wheels on the vehicle per side.
3. Is properly muffled.
4. Does not have a high center of gravity. Potentially unstable vehicles with a high center of gravity–determined by whether or not they are wider than they are tall–are excluded from SCCA Time Trials. Width is the average track width of the vehicle, and height is measured from the ground to the highest point. Extra caution should be exercised with non-traditional vehicles (e.g., trucks using racing slicks or tires with less than 200 tread wear rating.)
5. Is a vintage or alternate-series racing car that meets safety specifications for their sanctioning body.
6. Cars need not be licensed or licensable for road use, so long as they otherwise comply with these rules.
As far as I can tell.... open wheel cars are STILL part of the Time Trials process... However, it is NO LONG one car at a time. There are Time Trials SESSIONS now.. all cars in a group go out at the same time and get TIMED. It's still 'fastest laptime'.. and 'position' is no matter. It's up to the driver to position him/herself appropriately during the sessions to get the BEST LAP TIME POSSIBLE.
There ARE however, events that do NOT allow open wheel.. but it's not because SCCA says no.. it's up to the region putting on the event.
At least.. that is what I THINK I KNOW about it :D
Anyone with more experienced knowledge can correct me.
Steve, FV80
Steve. I like your response better, but I suspect Rich's will have enough truth in it to mess with my plans. I had gotten the impression that Time Attack didn't cater to open wheeled cars. It really doesn't matter since it's still multiple cars on track. If I do that, I can just run track test-days. It seems that would at least keep me with cars similar to my own.
BTW: the hillclimbs aren't going to work. I'm in central Florida. [But I did climb mount Dora!].
Jim
CFR does have Track Sprints. Think of a flat hill climb. Single lap, standing start. There was one scheduled this Saturday afternoon at The FIRM in Keystone Heights, but was canceled today do to the weather forecast (lightning). We will be running the SOLO event, see the email below.
CFR has 3 road race weekends this year at Daytona. We have autocrosses on the kart track in the eastern part of the infield. One 3 cone slalom and an offset gate or two for the entire course. We run clockwise one day, counterclockwise the next day.
I run a Lola T342 in BM. Daytona video below.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/13GE...ew?usp=sharing
Hope to see you at an event.
Dave
Due to the high likelihood of damp conditions and lightning on Saturday we're going to cancel the TrackSprint portion of the event. The TrackSprint makes the event run to the very end of the day without any cushion for a lightning delay and it doesn't seem particularly prudent to run a high speed track event in the wet. If you are registered for both the TrackSprint and autocross and you don't do anything, your autocross registration will remain. If you no longer want to participate you can cancel your registration from your Motorsport Reg Dashboard. If you're only registered for the TrackSprint but want to now run the autocross please send me an email and I'll update your registration. If you're on the wait list we're increasing the autocross cap slightly to get everyone in so look for a confirmation email in the next day or two.Thank you for your flexibility and understanding as we do our best to host safe well run events.
Steve,Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
I asked Heyward Wagner about running a formula car at a time trial event and was told to buy a Miata, open wheel cars have no place in time trials program.
The theory was competitors were supposed to filter in from the Track Night in America program and since tt events ran open sessions, open wheel cars would need a separate session taking valuable track time from everyone.
Now, PHA runs events at Summit(Jefferson and Shenandoah) either like a flat hillclimb or a couple of cars at a time spread out. Only downside at $300+ for 10 minutes of track time is it worth it for a weekend. I think a hillclimb is going for $200 to $250 for a weekend with 6 to 8 minutes of track time. It has gotten to the point I have given up on the SCCA and would rather run karts, for $50, I get the same amount of track time, if I do well take some money home, sleep in own bed, and race every weekend from Easter to Thanksgiving.
Rich
Funny how things come back around. Out of college, we ran Malibu Gran Prix go-carts for a buck fifty a lap. Then I started autocrossing and found a one-off Formula Ford to run. Turns out it had a small clutch and road racing gears and I didn't know how to change either, so I went to Solo 1. Then I realized I was paying like I was racing and getting very little track time, so I went racing.
Now I can't race but have a Formula Ford with a small clutch and road racing gears. I can change the gears, but the clutch change requires a new flywheel and a work-space I no longer have, so Solo 1 looks more reasonable. However, costs, 1 lap at a time and standing starts makes carts look appealing, and while it's not a buck fifty anymore, it's cheap compared to clutch, flywheel, gears, tires and a trailer. We ran at Andretti last week and there is an outdoor track not far away, so I have come full circle it seems.
Thanks for all the input. Not sure what I'll do at this point.
BTW: Thanks for the video.
Jim,
Yes.. I think there is a story somewhere about life going full circle ...
I think you are on the 'right track'.. which is, whichever suits your needs/desires at any given moment :D:D
Enjoy it ... whichever it is...
Steve
I too inquired about open wheel cars in time trials and was told open wheel cars "have plenty of other places to run". They did however state is a regional time trail had enough vehicles for a session, they MAY be allowed to compete.
Solo 1 was a great time to learn a track and make sure car was ready to race before ruining everyone's practice on Saturday morning. 8 to 9 tenths
Don't quote me but I think the National TT program has no place for formula cars, but regional events can have them (and I expect most would gladly accept them).
The events I've seen them at were Divisional races that were SHARED with a TT. The TT sessions were used by many Divisional drivers to get extra track time, so there were enough open wheel cars to justify the session time. Seen it at both Road Atlanta and Barber, though not recently.Quote:
Originally Posted by RussMcB
Steve
Since 2013, the SEDIV Double SARRC at Barber has been combined with a TT. The TT has 3 groups - TTA - Open Passing for Tin Tops; TTB - open Passing for Wings N Things; TTC - restricted passing for Tin Tops. Car classes recognized are all of the National and SEDIV Regional GCR and the TTN National and suggested Regional classes. Over 50% of the TT entries are Road Racers looking for the extra Practice time. The TT sessions are run before Race Qual and after Race Qual to facilitate their effectiveness as practice time.
Prior to the new TTN system, SEDIV had an outstanding SOLO 1/TT Championship Program starting back in the 80's. Usually 1/3 of our TT entrants had Formula cars. In his rush to implement TTN, Heyward deliberately killed the SEDIV TT Program as no longer necessary to meet his overall design. He and I had many discussions/arguments about inclusion of the Formula cars in TTN. SEDIV is now trying to re-establish its SEDIV TT Program.
In 2024, Barber will still be held as a Double SARRC and also part of the SEDIV TT Championship Series.
That's how I started... back in 1975(?) - Has a great program in CalClub with SCCSCC.Quote:
Originally Posted by marshall9
I have heard the same. With non-SCCA clubs there are also a lot of insurance related restrictions. Insurance companies seem to hate open wheel race cars for some reason :thumbsdown:Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig71188
It looks like the June race at AMP is going to have a similar format at the Barber SARRC / TT event.
Yeah there was no reason for SCCA National to throw the baby out with the bath water the way they did.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farrout48
Still waiting for the AMP TT Supps but it appears that there will not be a TT group for the Formula cars. That is probably not a big issue as most, if not all, of the former SEDIV TT guys with Formula cars have either gone on to SARRC, retired or sold their cars.Quote:
Originally Posted by douglap1
I wish them well, Had not raced at AMP since we did an old TT there years ago. Running the DSR AMAC was a blast.
Oh man, because I was the person with "Time Trials Program Manager" in my title and was chair of the Time Trials Board when all of this went down, let me clear up some things because I think there are some misunderstandings and emotions involved. (Including mine at times).
History:
- Solo 1 was a program introduced in the late 1960s and was part of "Solo Events" which included Solo 2 (Autocross) until the early 2000s. As described, that Solo 1 format was single-car (or three car pods) on track at a time and it included both on-track events and HillClimb.
- In roughly 2005, the "1" and "2" nomenclature was removed from "Solo Events" leaving Autocross as just "Solo" and the program formerly known as "Solo 1" was put under the purview of Road Racing, renamed Time Trials, and split into two types: Club Trials and Track Trials. The program kept the Licenses, but divided tracks into categories that were either appropriate for licensed drivers and vehicles with enhanced safety only (Track Trials) or novice drivers with street car safety like autocross (Club Trials). Groups no longer had to be one car at a time.
- Of the participating regions, adoption was mixed. For the most part, the SEDIV kept the traditional Solo 1 style/rules (especially the divisional series) NEDIV, SWDIV and MIDIV had some events for a group of cars on track. Other than HillClimb, I don't believe any other Division had space for wings and things outside of the SEDIV.
- In 2017, the SCCA had 450ish Track-based "Time Trials" entries and about 800 HillClimb entries nationwide. (I'm working from memory, but can look back at notes if needed.)
- Of those entries: there were less than 40 unique drivers were running formula cars/specials nationwide. I think around a half-dozen of those drivers were entries in the track-based Time Trials events, the vast majority (somewhere around 30 people) were running in the Pennsylvania HillClimb Association events.
In 2018:
- With the success of Track Night in America, an experimental event called Targa, and the adoption of track use of cars with street safety in the US, we looked around at other more successful Time Trials programs (NASA, GridLife) and decided to revamp the SCCA time-based competition on track.
- We "re-imagined" SCCA Time Trials - building a format, licensing and set of National Classes that better fit a much larger market than we had in order to provide SCCA members (and potential members) better opportunities for participation with the SCCA.
- As part of that, we included a Time Trials Nationals event, and a series of regional events that would become the Time Trials National Tour.
- Because of the very small number of participating wings and things, (appropriate) reluctance to run them on track with full-weight sedans, and the number of entries needed to make an event financially viable - we did not include classes for wings and things in the SCCA National Classes.
- As a personal note here - this meant that the Program Manager (me) made the decision that I wouldn't be able to run my own car (Swift DB-3/Honda) in the program I was managing. It was not an easy decision, but it was one of necessity for the health of the program and events. Running Formula car groups of less than half a dozen cars would have caused the events to lose money, and turned away a couple dozen potential participants per event in production-based cars.
- While that did mean that wings-and-things would not have a place at National events, we did create classes for wings-and-things for Regions to use, and a few regions have opened up registration for those cars at their events, or attempted to provide for a formula car/sports racer group.
- In 2018 we had around 1,500 Time Trials entries nationwide. By 2020 that number had grown to more than 3,000. The reformatting of the Time Trials program and the tough decisions we made have been successful in creating events and opportunities for Regions and drivers that were not getting those opportunities before.
Currently:
- The Time Trials program offers two formats:
Time Attack: a group/multiple cars run on track at a time with passing as either point-by or open depending on the experience level of the drivers.
Track Sprint: Single car runs on a portion of a track. Think of it like a HillClimb, but on a racetrack. At the National Office, we are very clear that any region running a "stand alone" TrackSprint events should be allowing and encouraging wings-and-things.
- Nationwide, there are now more than 16,000 Track Day and Time Trials entries in the SCCA. That's about 2 thousand more entries than Road Racing.
Clarifications and Details
- Quotes like, "open wheel cars have no place in time trials program" and, "have plenty of other places to run"
While there were some specific instances of less than ideal word choice, usually when answering rapid-fire questions during online promotional events like GRM live or Town Hall settings - those statements were not the official positions or desired wording of the Time Trials board when it came to responding to requests for wings-and-things inclusion.
When we were adjusting the current national rules, we received probably 10-12 letters and another dozen social media discussions (of hundreds) asking why we were not including wings and things. This was our vetted and repeated response:
As stated in the last sentence, the TTB was at the time open to re-evaluating the inclusion of wings and things. I cannot speak for them now because I'm no longer in that role, but I am in a role which helps regions put together multiple programs to increase their entries and event strength, and there is still no no evidence that there are enough drivers of formula cars/wings and things who are interested in Time Trials to be economically feasible for events to consistently include them.Quote:
Please remember, this rule set is for Time Trials Nationals only. Regions are encouraged to run the classes they see fit.
It was not without a great deal of thought and discussion that this rule set was released without a place for Formula cars and Sports Racers. When it comes down to a finite amount of track time available, and the overwhelming market direction of production-based cars in the Time Trial format, it was decided not to include them as part of National Classing and groups. We are still open to feedback on this issue, but the response thus far has not provided enough data to change the direction.
- We didn't create space for any of the specific SCCA Racing classes. Anything with R-compound (<200 treadwear) or slicks goes right into the "Unlimited" Categories. This means that a B-Spec car is in the same class with a GT Lite car, and both would get to go up against big-winged Miata time attack cars on slicks. An American Sedan or T3 car would get to go up against a Porsche GTLM or Trans Am car. We were deliberate in the program building that the bulk of the classes would be for the cars we see being driven on tracks: which means daily drivers and street-driven production cars. All SCCA wheel-to-wheel production-based racing classes went right into Unlimited unless they changed tires and fit the other category rules.
If wings and things were more compatible to run with sedans, we would have opened up the Unlimited classes, the realities of combining those types on a large scale meant the lower-subscribed wings and things were on the losing end of the decision.
- Most regions who have offered open wheel groups have had very few potential entries - I believe 3-4 cars at most - which is not enough to sustain their events and the groups had to be canceled for low entries.
- The one region that makes it work (Double SAARC event at Barber) that TT session sort of doubles as both a test day for road racers and a Time Trial (notice it's open passing, no point-bys are used.) This is awesome, I'm really glad it works, it hasn't proven to be of interest or fit with time-availability across the country. Those are region decisions.
Let's Talk Economics
- At a small event at a small track it's very easy for it to cost $1,250/hour once you break it down. At a premium track (think Hoosier Super Tour), it can be climb to an effective rate of more than $4,000/hour for a weekend rental (and much higher for at least a couple tracks). If you're going to provide 2 hours of track time to a group, that would mean you have to bring in between $2,500-$8,000 in entries to justify a break-even run group.
- For many Time Trials events, they are now run as a single group during a Road Racing weekend. They tend to get 15-20 entries. To open another group it means both combining more road racing groups and then hoping you get enough entries to pay for the track time created by that vacancy. Both ends of that spectrum (group combination and time-trials interested wings-and-things) are a tough risk for Regions to take.
Bottom Line:
In our continued look into it, Formula Cars and Sports Racers do not demonstrate enough demand for Time Trials track time for event organizers to create a supply.
I wish this were different, I really do. My first event in a car on a track was in my 1983 Van Diemen at a "Solo 1" event in 1997. It was a great way for me to get some seat time before headed to driver's school. I used one as my first test in a Formula Continental a few years later. I know that it would be valuable to others whether they were on their way to road racing, from road racing, or just considered TT their motorsports "forever home."
But - as we said many times when we were building the "new" Time Trials and got letters about how Spec Miatas were not competitive, or how we didn't have a good class for a 1983 Porsche 930; the response and approach was, "we're not building this for everyone, we're building it for the most amount of people" and that, unfortunately, often means events end up not including formula cars and sports racers in favor of more opportunity for a vastly larger and more economically feasible market.
When the choice is, "include ____ type of car and risk the event going away or sustain the event by choosing a different market," the health of the event has to be considered first.
I wish we had the numbers to create the demand, I really do. It sucks to relive the decision-making process in the multi-day process of writing this in quiet work moments, and It sucks watching the category of personal choice/the car in my garage lose opportunities, but it was a necessary decision for the health of the program and the club.
Final Note:
If you guys really feel you can get 10-15 cars at an event - and I mean to really commit to entering, put the money up early and then show up so that the regions don't have event economic failure - let's start that discussion.
Regions have to have sustained events to keep having events. If that many cars are on the table (as they are with production-based groups) regions won't care what the specific cars are, just that there are cars. If those numbers are there, I will bend over backwards reach out to regions who are hosting standalone Time Trial events and help make it happen.
- Jon K
(Apologies for the post length, but I wanted to get it all out there for you guys to have a clear view of the history, current status and the challenges and decisions we faced.)
Jon,
That was a VERY INTERESTING message about what/how& why. Thanks for providing that info - it certainly helps us to better understand the WHY about everything and how hard SCCA members are WORKING to make everything happen from both ends of the SHOW spectrum.
Steve, FV80
PS.. a message from SCCA HQ about anything can NEVER be TOO LONG. The more we can understand, the better we fell about 'how things are' and WHY they are that way.
Jon,
Good to hear from you. I had no thought of triggering this discussion, but since it's happened, it is good that you were able to lay out the facts and the thought processes behind the decisions. Thanks for taking the time to produce that post. I am sure it wasn't the work of a moment. My own situation is thankfully unique, and nothing the club could or should make allowances for, but others will find the information you provided useful I'm sure. And thanks to everyone else who contributed to this thread too. As always, much appreciated.
Thank you for your appreciation - I'm always up for explaining a decision when it was though out, weighed, studied - even if it was ultimately painful. I just know that sometimes writing a novel on a message board without tone and expressions can create a "fill in the blank" assignment of emotion and hurt the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Davis
I also feel like sharing is important - making choices that strengthen the club might not serve every single member individually, I do believe that transparency to everyone is an important part of the club and that does serve everyone.
When I saw your post, my heart broke (again) for the decisions we had to make. I have always immensely enjoyed sharing paddocks and racetracks with you, and to see that those decisions were going to make it tougher for you to keep engaging the way you enjoy it the most (in the Swift) is not without profound dejection.Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftdrivr
Sometimes needing to make decisions that negatively affect my friends is the curse of working at the National office. (I am sure that BOD members and other folks in program boards and advisory committees experience the same from time to time.)
As you suspect, that post wasn't written in a day. I read your initial post and some of the reactions, and felt the wave of dejection and then anger at some of the misunderstandings. But - I have a couple of life rules: One of them is "don't grocery shop when you're hungry" and another is, "don't post on the internet when you're upset." So I waited a day and then started to write. Then I went and unplugged from work and watched Indy 500 qualifying all weekend. Then I read the post on Monday, and still waited a day before polishing, reading and re-reading before I hit submit.
I appreciate that you posted it - it's a great discussion not just for Time Trials, but for Formula Cars in general. (As we know, TT isn't the only place where Formula cars/Sports racer participation suffers.) I also appreciate all of the other comments, even if they can be personally upsetting. I recognize that the emotion comes from a place of care and love for these things that we all enjoy.
Being an active time trial driver and host I can confirm formula cars are not allowed under the national TT program. Regions are free to do as they wish. For insurance purposes the formula car would need to be a seperate run group and our region at present has about zero drivers interested in doing this. If we had a dozen or so it would make sense to add a run group for them.
Hill climbs do however allow formula cars and if you happen to find a region hosting a track sprint. that's sort of like solo 1 and would allow formula cars.
As someone with a F5 car I wish there were more places to play with it. I am on the cusp of moving from Autocross to track events and wanted a place to toe the waters at the track without having to deal with traffic.
I did enter the PHA event at Summit Point Jefferson a few weeks back and had a blast my first time doing more than autocross. They are a good group of people and very accommodating, there were also a good number of formula/sports racers there.
I would not that it was very publicly noted on their website and at the event itself that their track events are on the brink of not being viable anymore due to cost increases from the track.
The event 8/31-9/1 on Summit Point Shenandoah, well they were saying that there is a go/nogo date of early july to see if they have enough entries for it to not be cancelled.
If you are interested and have a car/equipment to pass tech, please sign up, I'd really like for it to keep going. As others have stated, it is a great way to get your feet wet before diving into drivers school and wheel to wheel.
https://www.motorsportreg.com/events...ountain-252026