Remove body side panels

I recently got a 97 Van Diemen. The more I dig into the car the more I see wrong, or incomplete. At this point I think the whole car needs going over. My question is - should I take off the side panels to make access easier? The suspension hasn't been set up yet so no worries there. If I should, how do I remove the shocks. They were recently rebuild and someone just stuck them in there with undersized bolts. Because the bolts are smaller, I can tell that with the car in the air the shocks are under tension rather than compression. It looks like I can just put a little upward pressure on the tire with a jack and that will probably remove any lateral pressure on the mounting bolts for the shocks. Is this a valid approach or am I completely wrong. If I need to do it with a spring compressor, can anyone recommend one. I've had trouble with standard size spring compressors on smaller struts. Thanks.

That works. Basically, whenever you find a major issue on a purchased car that shouldn't have been there, it's time to take it apart.

Usually there are droop limiters in the shocks so once you are up there is no tension on the shock.

You'll want to take the fuel cell a out and test it, and I suggest you take whatever time is necessary to re-engineer things for easy access. My cell container has the rivets replaced with nutserts and screws in such a way you can actually get to them, and if I had to do it again I'd re-layout the sheetmetal to make it even easier.

Some people even cut those body side panels so they can be removed without taking the suspension off.

Other things to pay close attention to: Wiring, throttle cable, oil tank and gearbox seals, fuel pickup, etc.

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Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner

That works. Basically, whenever you find a major issue on a purchased car that shouldn't have been there, it's time to take it apart.

Usually there are droop limiters in the shocks so once you are up there is no tension on the shock.

You'll want to take the fuel cell a out and test it, and I suggest you take whatever time is necessary to re-engineer things for easy access. My cell container has the rivets replaced with nutserts and screws in such a way you can actually get to them, and if I had to do it again I'd re-layout the sheetmetal to make it even easier.

Some people even cut those body side panels so they can be removed without taking the suspension off.

Other things to pay close attention to: Wiring, throttle cable, oil tank and gearbox seals, fuel pickup, etc.

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Thanks, I figured that was the way to go but these cars are new to me and glad to have someone who knows more than me verify the approach. There is a shop near me that has a lot of experience with these cars, I am going to take it there but figure I'll get as much of the grunt work done as I can first. Plus, I'll only learn more about the car by taking it apart.

I like the nutserts idea!

I was looking at the body panels the other day and trying to figure out what would be needed to make them removable w/o taking the suspension apart. If anyone has done this and can provide any pointers (or pics), that would be great.

My rule of thumb any time I bought a car used (virtually always) is tear it down completely.

1) you find all the bad things in it and there are always some.
2) you get to know the car, the components, the bolts, etc. and you find out what tools you need that you don't have.

To remove the side panels on a 97 first remove the side pod upper, then remove the bolts that are at the rear of the control arms, pull them out of their mounting points and remove the push rod. Unbolt the push rod from the shock side first, then the upright side and pull it out. And for reassembly it's easier to put it on the upright side first then bolt it to the shock so you aren't fighting the shock to get it lined up on the upright side.

There's some bolts at the front and then along the bottom of the panel to remove, and one at the top by the mirror and one at the top by the roll bar, then you can pull the panel off. You might want to take the side pod lower's off to make things easier.

As you said, if you put some upwards force on the wheel to remove the tension from the shock bolts, you can remove them really easily and pull the shock out.

Find a good prep shop near you, or someone with a lot of experience on semi-modern Formula cars. Ask them to share their knowledge and prep the car with you assisting them. There are too many ways to make expensive, illegal, and/or dangerous mistakes with these cars. I have done this with a lot of people over the years.

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Originally Posted by mwalsh

I recently got a 97 Van Diemen. The more I dig into the car the more I see wrong, or incomplete. At this point I think the whole car needs going over. My question is - should I take off the side panels to make access easier? The suspension hasn't been set up yet so no worries there. If I should, how do I remove the shocks. They were recently rebuild and someone just stuck them in there with undersized bolts. Because the bolts are smaller, I can tell that with the car in the air the shocks are under tension rather than compression. It looks like I can just put a little upward pressure on the tire with a jack and that will probably remove any lateral pressure on the mounting bolts for the shocks. Is this a valid approach or am I completely wrong. If I need to do it with a spring compressor, can anyone recommend one. I've had trouble with standard size spring compressors on smaller struts. Thanks.

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Be careful removing the shocks - they limit the suspension droop, and once you remove them they may let the suspension droop to the point that the only thing keeping it from drooping further is the rotational travel limits on rodends. Putting rodends in bending is a bad idea and can cause cracks to start at the base of the thread grooves leading to their failure.

I would recommend stripping the car down to its bare frame.

Bag and tag all the parts!!!

once you have the car down to its bare frame, replace and repair individual components as you work through the car.

It can be a bit daunting if you're new to these cars, but it's really not that big a deal.
Like others have stated, find a good local prep shop to help you on some of the more obscure technical bits (oil sump refresh, fuel bladder inspection, etc)
And enjoy the mechanical experience! I find working on these cars is almost as much fun as driving them

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Originally Posted by chrisw52

I would recommend stripping the car down to its bare frame.

Bag and tag all the parts!!!

once you have the car down to its bare frame, replace and repair individual components as you work through the car.

It can be a bit daunting if you're new to these cars, but it's really not that big a deal.
Like others have stated, find a good local prep shop to help you on some of the more obscure technical bits (oil sump refresh, fuel bladder inspection, etc)
And enjoy the mechanical experience! I find working on these cars is almost as much fun as driving them

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Sounds like you've been exactly where I am. I was a bit disappointed at first as I found more and more issues, and it seemed overwhelming. But the more I get into it I'm starting to enjoy the process and find the engineering on these cars really interesting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chrisw52

I would recommend stripping the car down to its bare frame.

Bag and tag all the parts!!!

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And take pictures, lots of pictures!

And it doesn't hurt to get yourself (or make, or borrow) a trammel bar or something similar to make suspension measurements easy right of the bat and make measurements of everything. Not to say that they're right, but at least you can get back to where you started.

Sometimes these cars have a lot of spacers made of stacks of washers. Kinda important to document those as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mwalsh

Sounds like you've been exactly where I am. I was a bit disappointed at first as I found more and more issues, and it seemed overwhelming. But the more I get into it I'm starting to enjoy the process and find the engineering on these cars really interesting.

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I'm right there with you. My Anson came in pieces. I have had it to about 95% mocked up just to see what I have and what I need. Now I've disassembled it so I can properly clean, inspect, torque. etc. I've been pretty disappointed that several items are in need of help. Mostly the rear suspension. I have acquired or had made what I need and am beginning to move forward again. I too have found that I enjoy working on it and love showing people the technology and quality of how a formula car is constructed. What I thought would be a relatively easy and quick process is a now a year in the making. My current goal is October.

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Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner

And take pictures, lots of pictures!

...

Sometimes these cars have a lot of spacers made of stacks of washers. Kinda important to document those as well.

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And figure out why the washers are there. They were not designed to be ;)


There are other threads about rebuilding and different schools of thought.

Doing it all at once can be overwhelming. When I did my 94/95 I focused on the frame, suspension ad brakes.
Stripped it down, did some frame mods, power coated it, new floor, new wiring. Anything that was 'under' something else got resolved.
(Fuel cell was tested, felt lining replaced, rivets replaced, etc.)
I did not paint suspension or address bodywork at that time. I got back on track with plans to address those things later.
3 months.

Then everything after that became a weekend process.

I have a friend that spent 3 years rebuilding his car, fiddling with fitting bodywork. Never finished. Sold it before he ever got it on track.

Unless you are a shop, total teardown is a lot. You must break it up into smaller projects with the REQUIREMENT of getting back on track BEFORE you start the next stage.

Safety first of course.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rick Kirchner

And take pictures, lots of pictures!

And it doesn't hurt to get yourself (or make, or borrow) a trammel bar or something similar to make suspension measurements easy right of the bat and make measurements of everything. Not to say that they're right, but at least you can get back to where you started.

Sometimes these cars have a lot of spacers made of stacks of washers. Kinda important to document those as well.

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lol... yeah really important you do this before you take it all apart :beer:

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Originally Posted by BeerBudgetRacing

And figure out why the washers are there. They were not designed to be ;)


There are other threads about rebuilding and different schools of thought.

Doing it all at once can be overwhelming. When I did my 94/95 I focused on the frame, suspension ad brakes.
Stripped it down, did some frame mods, power coated it, new floor, new wiring. Anything that was 'under' something else got resolved.
(Fuel cell was tested, felt lining replaced, rivets replaced, etc.)
I did not paint suspension or address bodywork at that time. I got back on track with plans to address those things later.
3 months.

Then everything after that became a weekend process.

I have a friend that spent 3 years rebuilding his car, fiddling with fitting bodywork. Never finished. Sold it before he ever got it on track.

Unless you are a shop, total teardown is a lot. You must break it up into smaller projects with the REQUIREMENT of getting back on track BEFORE you start the next stage.

Safety first of course.

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I'm pretty much planning on taking your approach, and hoping not to become your friend. I want to focus on the important stuff that needs attention so I can get on the track, even if it's just a couple of track days if it's not SCCA legal yet. Then work on the other stuff later - electronics, eventually the body, etc.

The car seems to have good bones, and the engine, gearbox and shocks are fresh. The car was torn down and "rebuilt" 2 years ago, then sold to a guy who has a racing team. He was planning on adding another driver, but that never worked out so he sold it. It mostly looks like the car just wasn't finished when it was put back together. There are some electrical issues, fire bottle plumbing was never re-installed, oil & water sensors never wired - a bunch of little stuff like that. The biggest issue I've found so far is a leak at the front gearbox seal, but that doesn't seem to bad to replace.

I'm still hoping to get on the track this fall, but we'll see. It's all good, looking forward to learning everything I can about the car. And it just looks damn cool in the garage - puts a smile on my face every time I go out there.

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Originally Posted by mwalsh

I'm pretty much planning on taking your approach, and hoping not to become your friend. I want to focus on the important stuff that needs attention so I can get on the track, even if it's just a couple of track days if it's not SCCA legal yet. Then work on the other stuff later - electronics, eventually the body, etc.
.

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That is a good plan. Newbies that undertake frame-up rebuilds often end up selling the car in boxes many years later. Something I learned the hard way, was to disassemble the car while leaving "assemblies" together. Prioritize the assemblies and tackle based on prioritization. When the time comes that you have to throw the car back together, it makes the process much easier. If you run the car a few times, it helps with your prioritization process. Using your time most effectively is the key to success, whether in racing, business, or life.

A good tip for working on the VDs, is to take one side off so you can work inside the cockpit. Leave the other side and suspension all together. 90% of what you would want to do can be done with one side off. When all together, removing one shock to gain accessibility is often easier than working around it.