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What's everyone's take on paddle shifters next year in FE2? I know Gabe wants them and plans to place the verbal order with Scott at Gingerman this weekend. Any other takers? What about the Pros/Cons of having a mixed field?
Personally, I think the paddle shifters were needed to keep FE2 relevant to modern race cars and can help attract drivers to the class.
Double edged sword.
The more complexity the car has the more points of failure. The other side of more complexity is it takes more cash and then there are more places to spend more cash to make the car better.
I don't think that adding wiz bang electronics is going to increase formula car interest, I wish there was a easy way to increase interest. Was pointing out to my intern the equipment I wore when I played goal tender, he has been a goalie for years and he said he wouldn't play in the equipment I did in the 70's.
A few years back was prepping a F1000 car with paddle shifters, spent a bunch of time in shop to tune and make system work well. We took it to a dyno to test systems, it would not shift when it was on the dyno. Turns out it was a magnetic brake type and the magnetic field screwed with system so it would not work.
I am a technology guy been playing with wires and the stuff that flows through them, but it scares many people when wires are involved. So it increases a little interest but will chase more away.
My two cents... I think it's unnecessary and also unlikely to attract substantial new blood. Notably absent from the announcement was any discussion of cost, but don't be surprised if it's over $10,000... especially with the markup at both SCCA-E and the CSRs. So now we're talking about $60k cars (assuming average used car is $50k). And compared to F4 or USF2000... the exposure is basically none, if you're trying to get your kid to the next level. Also notably absent, as is typical, is discussion with the actual owners of these cars about what WE want, what WE would like to see in the class, etc. I know SCCA-E meets with the CSRs, but I don't think those half dozen people represent the whole class. The blipper might be nice... I'm getting better at downshifts but do still muck it up occasionally. Again, for a few hundred dollars to have perfect shifts, sure. For a few thousand... not so much.
I am not an FE competitor but was around when the shifter toothpaste got out of the FB tube.
In my opinion, paddles would be a very bad idea. All the same arguments are being made to justify it as they were in FB; it's a one time cost, it will "save engines/transmissions", we need them to attract the kids.
1. Yes, it is a one time cost. A large one. Any time you make anything more expensive you are shrinking your customer base. You can only hope the added expense will bring more people in who want and can afford it than you will drive out who cannot afford it. This did not help FB, and from my time on the FSRAC it appeared to me to have hurt FB.
2. It didn't really save anything. If you can't shift a racecar properly, paddles are not going to make it much better.
3. You're fooling yourself if you think kids will come to SCCA because you have paddles. Not gonna happen. You may get one or two, but they are not going to come club racing. Road to Indy is where they go for the most part and trying to change the cars to attract them will come at the cost of participants who traditionally make up the bulk of the class - older privateer recreational drivers.
The added complexity is also something that the average racer won't want to mess with. Think of a normal race weekend, and driver. One person and maybe a crew helper. Adding the complexity of a shift system won't reduce their workload and make their weekend more burdensome. When the shifters work, they are great. When they don't you want to tear your hair out. If something isn't right now you have to get out a computer and mess with things. How do you test what you changed to see if you fixed it? During your race?
Again just an outsider's opinion here, but this is a solution searching for a problem. Adding cost and complexity will be detrimental to the class. I considered looking at FE last year and found out a top car will be $60+. That's a nawh from me dog. Add $10k on top of that for a shift system that replaces a perfectly suitable bump stick and that becomes an even larger nawh.
The class just got done with a very expensive conversion, give peoples' bank account a break.
I’m brand new to the class. Just bought my FE and am in the process of converting it to FE2 spec with the new engine and transmission. I knew about the possibility of a paddle shift option prior to buying my car, and if it were say a 2K option I MIGHT consider it. Let’s face it. Paddles are cool and modern. They allow the driver to keep their hands on the wheel 100% of the time. But given the amount of money I’ve already spent on the car, engine, transmission, data system, various updates, etc. there’s absolutely no way I’ll be spending another ten grand on the system. It’s a non-starter for me at that price.
My gut tells me that going from the bump stick to a paddle system won’t result in quicker lap times. If I’m wrong and there’s a noticeable advantage to running it (mid-corner seamless shifts as an example), then that’s potentially a big problem. The entire reason I’m getting back into racing in FE2 is because of the spec nature of the class. I completely understand the need for incremental upgrades to keep a class relevant, and a few hundred bucks on new spring rates is one thing. But this is on another level completely. At ten grand we’re talking about the cost of the transmission itself all over again. As a previous poster stated, FE competitors just went through a $20K+ drivetrain upgrade. The wallets need a rest at this point. It’s time to race the cars without worrying that you might not have the latest and greatest performance upgrades.
If you allow competitors who can afford it to add something to the car that helps their performance over those who cannot afford it, then in my humble opinion you’ve just ruined the class. Let’s hope that’s not the case in this instance.
My 2 cents-
Eric
I have 3 customers that want the paddle shift as soon as it becomes available. They each have different but valid reasons to want the system. Personally, I don't think it will be an advantage for someone who doesn't have a physical limiting factor to executing proper shifts. We do not really shift gears enough to warrant the rare times when stick shifting is impossible and only paddles would work. I will not be adding paddles to my car and don't see it as a disadvantage. Paddles do have a cool factor to them, much like the Formula Car steering wheel display from Aim.
After finding out what the cost will be, I'm re-considering getting it and so is my driver. I spoke with Enterprises at the Runoffs about it. It sounded to me like maybe a dozen to 15 owners have shown interest. Two different types are being tested: pneumatic and hydraulic.
I don't recall the pneumatic brand, but it seems some folks in other series/classes love it and some hate it.
The hydraulic unit is SADEV. There has been a lot of delays getting the unit delivered out of France. I understand the unit is about the size of a toaster and weighs less than a gallon of gas (but it is additional weight to consider). It will probably mount on driver's right aside the fuel cell. The SADEV unit is likely big bucks, just like the transaxle was.
It certainly didn't sound like it'd be available until second half of 2022; that's my take, nothing directly said about it. I could be wrong.
After speaking with some of the runoffs drivers about it, a couple were flat out against and couple didn't care either way.
IMO, cost will be a big factor. The ROI may not be there with the SADEV unit: time saved on track vs. $$ spent.
Dean, just curious what numbers you heard for the pneumatic system vs. the SADEV hydraulic? And did you hear any numbers for just the auto-blip piece? That might actually be worth it to help with wear and tear on the engine and transmission if it doesn’t cost a fortune.
Eric
No numbers other than a very loose budgetary one for the SADEV. Sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by eboucher
I think it needs said before folks go on saying that Enterprises is all about making a big score on this option. I gathered while talking to them at the Runoffs that it's actually car owners asking for this, not Enterprises looking to make a score.
After talking with them, I really believe Enterprises wants to provide a reliable unit to owners that want one.
I strongly disagree with this statement. One there is no direct performance advantage with how you display your data, paddles there is a good chance of a performance gain. It becomes one more thing to play with or fail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Wills
I just see this as one more barrier to getting growth in formula cars. The more technology you introduce the more you will scare away. It is an other item to up the racing budget.
Personally I am for the auto blip and paddle shift. The last 2 cars I raced had both and this feel like a good step backwards. The blip downshift is flat barbaric. I will gladly absorb the cost to bring the car closer to the modern era. Just my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi_guy
As an original FE owner that can't really afford to go FE2 at once let alone in pieces I am not thrilled about this news. I haven't even experienced a no-lift shift yet. Let's let the spec on the spec class settle for a little bit and let some people catch up technologically. It's supposed to be you winning not the equipment.
I spoke with an FE2 CSR at the runoffs, and he told me they weren't sure if they were going to be able to keep the cost of a new turnkey FE2 w/paddles under $100k. :confused:
Someone thinks paddles will bring in new blood....?
I'd really like to meet this affluent new blood, I could use the income :-)
I'm all for the paddles. I absolutely love the idea. But with a $10k price tag........that makes it much less intriguing.
A brand new turnkey FE2 with paddle shifters will NOT be close to 100K.
I really do think this is a valid point. Take this with a grain of salt guys given the context, but on a base setup in the USF2000 car in iRacing at Sonoma (Cup/club layout), I’m consistently two to three tenths faster per lap with the paddles and auto-blip than with the bump stick and no auto-blip (I can run either with my setup). Looking at the segment times the gains seem to be coming mainly from mid corner to corner exit. I think this is because it’s easier to take a slightly faster corner entry in a gear higher and then adjusting your power band mid-corner for the perfect exit by finger-flicking a nice, smooth downshift, and then upshifting while still tracking out to corner exit. It seems to really come into play in medium speed, decently high G corners where taking a hand off the wheel to grab a downshift just isn’t that feasible. At the very least between one-handing it and not getting the perfect manual blip it can severely upset the car. Not the case with the paddles and auto-blipper. They just make it pretty much effortless to consistently keep the engine in the perfect part of the power curve 100% of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi_guy
Again, it’s only a sim in a USF2000 car vs. the real thing in our cars but I do think there’s genuine cause for concern that those who can afford the high price tag will see some significant performance gains with the paddles and auto-blip over those who can’t. Not exactly what I had in mind joining a “spec” class. :(
Having said all of that, I’m not privy to what the plans are to introduce the technology. If they intend on adding two or three tenths worth of additional weight to any paddle shift equipped car to keep them roughly equivalent to non-equipped cars then I guess that would be an acceptable compromise. Just not sure getting into the whole BOP thing is the best thing for a spec class.
Barbaric uh? I’d hate to hear what you think about an FV, an FF, an FC, or any number of other classes still running H-pattern boxes. ;) I guess I have to disagree with your statement to the extent that a spec class like FE2 isn’t necessarily about having the latest and greatest technology. It’s about having an affordable (all things being relative) class with identical cars where driving skill counts more than how much money you can throw at technology to make the car faster. I’m in full agreement with you that paddles and blippers are very cool tech, but you can get that in any number of other classes if that’s what you’re really looking for. Offering an optional, and quite expensive component that some can afford and some cannot that potentially results in a performance advantage completely defeats the purpose of a spec class.Quote:
Originally Posted by campbell53
If I wanted to run ancient tech I'd be in SVRA. I view FE2 to be a semi modern car. And it should keep up with the times unless you're ok with it becoming the next FM. Which it will do if things don't change occasionally.Quote:
Originally Posted by eboucher
No dog in this fight as I do not own an FE2. However I am intrigued and considering the purchase of an FE2. If you all want to throw money at the car why dont you consider spending the money on something useful like a diffuser? This would be a real performance improvement. I own a USF2000 MZR car with the sequential box. I would say there is a slight performance advantage in a sequential shifter over a conventional H pattern shifter. It is very rare that I ever miss a gear. Literally 3 times in close to 20 races, most were early on. Is there a performance advantage between the sequential ‘bump stick’ and paddle shifters? Hard to imagine there would be any difference. Maybe some would feel more comfortable keeping both hands on the wheel? Just think about all the distractions you DONT have in a race car that tie up your hands in a road car, ie. cell phone, drink holder, ciggys, music controls, talking to wife, turn signals, honking horn at pretty girls when wife is not in the car, etc. BTW would it not be fun to have a horn on a race car?! How much do they weigh? We mostly handle those distractions ok so why do we need paddle shifters? Only reason I can think of is they are cool and attract the gamers. Someone mentioned that you need wizzy bits to be relevant and compared a potential future to FM. More accurate would be to look at what happened to F1000.Quote:
Originally Posted by NoLimits
Things ARE changing. The class has had 20k+ worth of changes over the last three years. In amateur racing there should be a balance of tech vs. spend. FE competitors have had enough spend lately. As I stated, there are several other classes you can run with paddles if you want to spend money on the latest and greatest. And as you correctly state, FE2 is a “semi-modern” car, which by that very definition means that it doesn’t need to have all of the absolute latest technology to be relevant. I certainly don’t see a hand operated sequential gearbox as “ancient tech” but I guess that’s where our opinions differ. To each his own.Quote:
Originally Posted by campbell53
If you don't want to run ancient tech why are you running anything that needs any kind of shifter? EV's don't need them.Quote:
Originally Posted by campbell53
As someone who has no interest in FE but has prepped and driven a wide variety of car types and chassis I'll say the following:
A lot of the "for" arguments are a bit ludicrous.
I know for a fact that "the kids" don't really care what kind of shifter the car has. The main concerns for young formula car drivers are budget, how competitive the series is, and how much seat time they get. The big issues for young people coming from carting to open-wheel racing are the vast difference in weight, how the cars lay power down, and the fact it's got an actual suspension and/or downforce. Shifting is the one thing they tend to get down pretty easily.
How much of a competitive advantage a paddle-shifter or sequential is varies highly with the platform & shifter system. If it's fully automated and the platform makes enough downforce then you can get some significant performance gains being able to shift mid-corner. On something like an FE or FC car, I doubt it makes too much difference, especially with the type of low to mid-range systems they can afford to put in the car. In somethng like an FF I'd say there's a slight disadvantage all other things being equal. In places like Turn 10 at Road Atlanta or the Hairpin at Sebring I can skip directly from 4th to 1st (delaying the downshift of course) and brake slightly deeper than the dude who has to pause to do two more downshifts.
The downsides to adding paddle-shifter systems to amateur level race cars are many.
First and foremost: cost. This stuff isn't cheap. To add a paddle shifter you need the compressor, an actuator, all the attendant plumbing, and you've got to add the wiring, switches, and integrate it with the ECU. For the cost to buy an entry-level paddle-shift system you can by a whole race car. This is why you rarely see more than 10 open-wheel cars in any single class but there's more Miatas than all of open wheel / sports racer groups combined.
Secondly: Technological complexity. You're adding a whole lot of extra stuff to the car, and from experience those paddle-shift systems can be finicky. The SADEV setup in FR / F4 frequently would "hang up" in reverse or neutral, needing a crew member rock the car or fiddle with the actuator to get the car rolling again. The gear position sensors can very easily be knocked out of whack. Did you just dip 2 wheels off? Too bad, the sensor just shifted and now you're stuck in whatever gear you were in at the time for the rest of the session. The cheaper systems are also vulnerable to water intrusion. I know of one driver dominating a rainy F4 weekend in part because his car was one of the few that the shifter system kept working in the spray. The "finicky" nature of the systems isn't much of a problem with pro series where everyone has the budget to bring crew with them. In amateur open wheel racing, where upwards of half the competitors are running "solo" these can be serious issues.
Thirdly: Sequential shifters breed full-course yellows. One of the things I like about an H-patter shifter is that if I spin out I can throw the car in neutral immediately. Even if I do stall it, I can bump the shifter to neutral instantly, get the car re-fired, and get out of everyone's way in 30 seconds or less. I have yet to see the sequential boxes equal that. You spin, you will ALWAYS stall the car. Some of the bike-engined cars will strip the starter if you go backwards without dumping the clutch pedal. A GT car I drove took over two minutes just to get the stupid thing into neutral (I finally bumped the thing forward with the starter in 1st gear, otherwise I'd still be in Turn 1 at Daytona). This is all kinds of NOT GOOD on club racing weekends with 5-8 run groups and limited tow vehicles. I rarely bother with test days on SCCA weekends any more because of all the black-flag-alls for stalled sequential shift cars.
All that being said, I don't think it's going to amount to any sort of real competitive advantage in FE2 (except for those people who can't learn how to co-ordinate their hands & feet). If they keep it optional, it's not going to blow costs out of whack and I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Sorry. Don't understand your post.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raceworks
I could live with that but I dislike the blip downshift. Like really dislike it. That shouldn't be much to fix tech wise. And regarding the recent upgrades it was necessary or the class would be dead. You'd be left with a track day car or sell it to someone doing an FE2 conversion. There's not many cars out there to convert for sale as I understand it.Quote:
Originally Posted by eboucher
As for FE2 paddling, I'm totally with Sam. If it doesn't shave the lap time at all, i wouldn't give it a second thought. The racers that want a high-tech car and to enjoy the trendy gimmicks that they see on TV on Sunday can knock themselves out. If it malfunctioned and cost me a good finish, I couldn't stop kicking myself. Others with different goals may feel differently.
Scca is ancient just look at the years of all cars in all classes. Scca does not have new cars every year.Quote:
Originally Posted by campbell53
I sort of don't want to open up this thread again, but given that I am about to take an expensive step towards FE2 I need to know.
What is going on with this paddle shifter discussion (FE3?) and how do I get involved in the future of this car's class?
Do you have the contact information for Nikki LaRue? She is an Operations Director at Enterprises. I would think she is a good person to contact and get some up to date information.
Also, are you familiar with the CSR in your region? These guys are roughly in your area https://competitiononeracing.com/ Have you been in contact with them?
I would not worry too much about paddle shifting for the FE. It is not going to be a mandatory upgrade like the engine/GB update. Personally, I doubt that I will be installing one on my car because there will be no performance improvement for me. We shift 32 times at COTA and there is not one shift that would improve my lap time with ECU assisted paddle shifting. No lift upshifting and and almost seamless downshifts do not give away any advantage to paddles. On the other hand, some folks have a physical need for paddles and will benefit from their use. Also as a CSR, I have potential car sells to people that are waiting for paddles in their formula car. Young people will not consider a formula car that does not have paddles as anything other than vintage. In some ways the paddle shifters make the FE relevant in today's market but you don't need them.
As far as getting involved in the future of the class then there is communication with your CSR and/or contact with the SCCA CRB committee.
For sure. Nikki and I have been in contact regarding the SADEV. I talk with Alliance and Comprent for parts orders and see Alliance at the track a lot. It doesn't seem like these guys are the ones making those decisions; or at least the final call go/no go for generational changes. Perhaps the last one was more a reaction than planned and no one made that call, but I'd like be part of the discussion when it is a choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by CGOffroad
For full disclosure, each decision made for this class is a total consensus vote during our monthly meetings amongst the CSRs. Staying in contact with your CSR and voicing any concerns or ideas for the direction of the class has value.Quote:
Originally Posted by toolo4sno
This is the information I was looking for. Ok, I will keep chirping to Al and Kevin. This must have been the voting I was hearing about; I was under the impression it was done by FE car owners. I must have misunderstood.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Wills
How many FE CSRs are there?
I would wager that to get paddle shifters would require the new ECU that comes with the MZR that brings the car to FE2. Maybe a CSR can clarify. You can stay with the 2.3 with the SADEV, but you'd still be in the regional FE class. Also, to get the no-lift shift, you may also need the new ECU and motor. Darryl, can you clarify?
They're all listed here:Quote:
Originally Posted by toolo4sno
Customer Service Representatives – SCCA Enterprises (scca-e.com)
Since you're in the Great Lakes division, your primary rep is Alliance (Suren). You're also moderately close to Elite Autosport; they bought Grau's dealership.
I only worry because my timing traditionally sucks and this would be par for the course. By the time I got my original FE car turnkey and "spec" everyone was Gen 2. I just got rid of my American Racing wets. Yes those tires. I seem to be perpetually catching up with the development of the car and paying more for it due to lacking economics of scale. I hope your comments on paddle shifters being non-mandatory are correct. I have never raced someone in my class and project it wouldn't be until decades end if those were mandatory.Quote:
Originally Posted by Darryl Wills
Your young people comment made me throw up in my mouth just a wee bit. Is it that bad, an FE is vintage tech. now?
Speaking technically, couldn't the paddle shifter ECU be programmed to execute a shift no faster than an above average stick shift?
From what Mike and Nikki are telling me; I can install the SADEV "dumb" and will have to lift for upshifts (as I do now) and rev match for downshifts (as I do now). There will be no communications connection between the box and engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by CheckeredFlag
Once I put any one of these items on: 2.0L MZR, SADEV 6 speed or Silver suspension coils; I become an FE2 and can go to Majors and Runoffs. Lacking the 2.0L engine will be most detrimental and unfortunately will be my case for a while. I will have 2 of 3 parts for full FE2.
I had to go look at the GCR about this because I know guys that previously ran the 2.3 and SADEV that were classified FE. GCR 9.1.1.I.1.A states, "FE’s with the Mazda 2.0L MZR engine will be classed as “FE2” and will use the class designation FE2." It says nothing about the SADEV. In fact, the GCR seems to note that the 2.0 and the Elite transaxle would be an FE2.Quote:
Originally Posted by toolo4sno
Also of note, GCR 9.1.1.I.2.A states that, "FE cars may enter as FE2.", so there's nothing precluding you from Majors events other than the performance difference in the motor.
Again, a good CSR should be able to clarify what I'm interpreting here.
Yep..Probably could thank sim racing for the mindset.Quote:
Originally Posted by toolo4sno
My CSRs gave me fuzzy answers when I asked if I could break an FE track record with a SADEV gearbox. I will keep my silver coils in the box if I can. I actually have to be fast first, but that's a different problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by CheckeredFlag
Last race I shredded several cogs, maybe some bearings and definitely some dog rings of my Elite 5 speed. I feel there is too much to repair to justify the costs. A replacement Elite even at discounted used rates doesn't make sense when a generational upgrade part is sitting out there and only getting more expensive the longer I wait. I say that, but if I don't have cash come April next year; I may regret this.