Formula Atlantic Registry

All Formula Atlantic Owners,

I am interested in putting together a mailing list of owners that includes all relatively recent FA Cars. Specifically, Swift 8, 14, 16, Ralt RT41, and Star Mazda cars.
We have been working diligently to "resuscitate" these incredible cars and get them all back on track.
Of particular interest is the development of Race Heads and Blocks for the 1600 Toyota TRD and the 2300 Mazda Cosworth motors, since they are the correct motors and specifically designed for the Swift and Ralt cars. Thankfully, the Star Mazda motors are more durable, but still interested in further development.
There are more than 100 Swift 14's and Swift 16's around and yet very few are active. Furthermore, they are still among the most sophisticated and competitive cars, especially when compared to newer models.
Building better dedicated motors will improve durability and no longer require OEM rebuilds . This will also eliminate unproven, costly and ineffective modifications which have only served to confuse and further fragment the marketplace.
There is a cost effective and timely solution that can only be accomplished if we work together.
Thanks for reading this and I hope you can see the benefit in making this happen in time for 2019 season.

Bob Corliss
Swift 14a, Chassis 21
Car #17:checkered:

Hi Bob,

Bill Gillespie
Swift 016 chassis 40

I’m in,
Bill

Ralt RT 41 #1026
count me in
Dee
penske ralt rt 5 # 287

Thanks for the quick reply...let's keep the momentum going!

This is a great call to action that this FA needs and deserves. I am not a current owner but have had the privilege of running an RT 41 years ago. I saw my first FB car at Lime Rock in 1976 and have been hooked ever since. This is among the finest open wheel class that has ever run in North America. In the heyday of the Players Series, the HFC series and later under CART the series rivaled F2 and F3.
I recently attended the Historic Weekend at Road America and loved seeing once again the Marches, Ralts, Lolas, Chevrons and even a Brabham BT 40 that I knew from the late 1970s and early 1980s. As was pointed out there are probably over 100 Atlantics that could run but they need a place to run. Chassis variety is at the foundation of technical interest and keeping true enthusiast interested. Two or three years ago the "Pro Series" had 15+ cars at Watkins Glen and now 5 chassis are showing up at a weekend. What has happened and what can be done to change the current situation? I applaud the efforts to start the conversation.

Three guys ? Come on , boys......this is a chance ...

SCCA Formula Atlantic homologated Dallara F301 USF3 (VW Bertil engine)

2000 Swift 008 Chassis #55

Swift 016 Chassis # 38 Owned and raced by Chris Emanuel

Maybe this is already being addressed in the background, but seems likely that the owners of Swifts that have sat inactive for years may not visit Apexspeed much, or at all. Ideas on how to spread the word outside apex?

Would track day organizations and member clubs share their mailing lists?
Are their social media methods that can 'force' messages via keywords to owners?

PFM 04-53 currently up for sale here on Apex. Not actively raced.

This may be off topic, but would a Honda power plant like Brian Novak's be a economical option?

Please forgive me if this is an unwanted tangent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RussMcB

This may be off topic, but would a Honda power plant like Brian Novak's be a economical option?

Please forgive me if this is an unwanted tangent.

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Hey Russ,
Jay Novak is a member here, and could best speak to your question.....It would be a good alternative if Honda has not lost interest...imho
Regards,
Bill

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lotus7

Maybe this is already being addressed in the background, but seems likely that the owners of Swifts that have sat inactive for years may not visit Apexspeed much, or at all. Ideas on how to spread the word outside apex?

Would track day organizations and member clubs share their mailing lists?
Are their social media methods that can 'force' messages via keywords to owners?

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Good thought Ian. To that point I met a "new" FA Swift 16 owner at the track this week and he was not aware of Apexspeed. He is now and is supportive of this effort. He has raced for many years and in his words, once he drove the FA he was" finished driving anything else". a sentiment that should ring true to all that have had the opportunity.
To your point, some of the respondents know where there are FA interested parties and your encouragement to reach out to them is very helpful.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RussMcB

This may be off topic, but would a Honda power plant like Brian Novak's be a economical option?

Please forgive me if this is an unwanted tangent.

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Russ, great question and one that many have or are considering. After spending time with Swift Engineering I can tell you that the 1.6 liter TRD motor for the RT41, Swift 8 & 14, is specific to those chassis designs. The motor has a low center of gravity and is a stress member. Any change requires change to the chassis and body, and to date has not been successful and very expensive to boot. The same holds true for the 2.3 liter Cosworth for the Swift 16. Both of those motors are obsolete as far as the OEM is concerned, hence the opportunity.
The solution lies in making those motors better and more durable, which can and will be done, and at a lower cost. The more people committed to this will result in a long term solution, a class that is manageable, and at a cost that is well within the scope of reasonable, considering we are talking about race cars.

PS I have some experience with the Honda motor, but would prefer not to comment. Honda is an excellent company, just not the solution for this effort.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Williams

Swift 016 Chassis # 38 Owned and raced by Chris Emanuel

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Thanks for responding Mike. Give my best to Chris and hope to see him in Sonoma. Remind him that we would love to see him run with us next year. Same goes for everyone else....hard to beat 180 minutes of excellent track time on some of the best tracks in the country.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dee

Ralt RT 41 #1026
count me in
Dee
penske ralt rt 5 # 287

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Thanks Dee!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joules5

2000 Swift 008 Chassis #55

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Thanks for responding....hope to meet in Sonoma later this year!:checkered:

I'm an FF guy.. driven FC a bunch of years and every once in a while think about an FA.. it's always the engine build cost and frequency of rebuilds that keeps guys like me out. You get that figured out I believe you can likely see more join the ranks

Good luck on this. I'm interested to see where this goes

It has been about a week now and in addition to the response we all see on the forum I have received many more responses in the private mode. Thanks to all of you who have responded, I would ask you to encourage anyone you know to do the same. We currently have accounted for more than 25 cars, and more are coming daily. This weekend I was at Road Atlanta and not only met another "new" FA owner, I also was approached by someone that offered assistance to help move things along.
Remember the goal.....to get all owners of FA spec cars on one list so that we can at least attempt to influence the future of this series.Thanks in advance and let's keep the momentum going .

Bob Corllss
Swift 14a Chassis 21
#17

Although my Swift 016, chassis #20, car #75, is for sale, I agree with "finished driving anything else". I am going back to competition aerobatics.

Larry Howard
Swift 016, AC-01
PFM, 04-513

I would be glad to help any way I can...

Just wanted to post a quick update. The initial response to my original post was strong, but now things have slowed down a bit. For my part I have spoken to a few other FA owners and although they did not see the post on Apex Speed, they did indicate they would be supportive and were happy to provide their car specifics and contact details. Car count is up but there are many more FA cars out there.
AS A REMINDER THE OBJECTIVE IS TO CREATE A DRIVER DATABASE INCLUDING RT40, RT41, SWIFT O8, 014, 016, AND PRO MAZDA CARS.
Hope all of you and your friends have either been racing, or at least getting ready to go racing. The Runoffs is coming soon, and sadly only 6 FA cars have registered.....we will be adding 2 more shortly and hope that many more find their way to Sonoma. It is a fun track, the weather will be excellent and the area is worth the trip. Please encourage as many as you can to attend.
Finally, those that rely on the Toyota, 4AGE motor (both Ralts and Swift 08 and 14), much progress is being made on development of a NEW HEAD, and it will basically solve the current problem, COST EFFECTIVELY. Will advise once all details are completed. Thanks and hope to catch up at the Runoffs.

I was told this weekend that part of the reason for shortage of Atlantic’s
running is that the rear Tires from Hoosier do not work
well on anything but Swift 016 due to being a bigger size.

The comment was that the rear tires actually bind the car up.
Is that the opinion of Ralt and Swift 08/014 owners?
Is there other tire options of the correct size?

Bob you mentioned a new head. Could you
give us more information ?

regards,

Michial

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob Corliss

All Formula Atlantic Owners,

I am interested in putting together a mailing list of owners that includes all relatively recent FA Cars. Specifically, Swift 8, 14, 16, Ralt RT41, and Star Mazda cars.
We have been working diligently to "resuscitate" these incredible cars and get them all back on track.
Of particular interest is the development of Race Heads and Blocks for the 1600 Toyota TRD and the 2300 Mazda Cosworth motors, since they are the correct motors and specifically designed for the Swift and Ralt cars. Thankfully, the Star Mazda motors are more durable, but still interested in further development.
There are more than 100 Swift 14's and Swift 16's around and yet very few are active. Furthermore, they are still among the most sophisticated and competitive cars, especially when compared to newer models.
Building better dedicated motors will improve durability and no longer require OEM rebuilds . This will also eliminate unproven, costly and ineffective modifications which have only served to confuse and further fragment the marketplace.
There is a cost effective and timely solution that can only be accomplished if we work together.
Thanks for reading this and I hope you can see the benefit in making this happen in time for 2019 season.

Bob Corliss
Swift 14a, Chassis 21
Car #17:checkered:

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Should have included DB4's ....I'm just saying

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sports Car International

I was told this weekend that part of the reason for shortage of Atlantic’s
running is that the rear Tires from Hoosier do not work
well on anything but Swift 016 due to being a bigger size.

The comment was that the rear tires actually bind the car up.
Is that the opinion of Ralt and Swift 08/014 owners?
Is there other tire options of the correct size?

Bob you mentioned a new head. Could you
give us more information ?

regards,

Michial

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Michial,

I do not have any complaints about the Hoosier Tire for my Swift 14. However, I will say that I have only driven the car on Hoosiers as that is the series tire. To give you a sense of comparison with the Swift 16, my perspective is that it was never intended for the 14 and the 16 to be equal......different cars with different priorities. I have competed against more 16's than 14's and have been pleased with results.......faster in some areas and slower in others. I could add a lot more color but suffice it to say that both are superlative cars and very compatible on track and that my lap times for the two cars are close.

Re the new head and block development program: the Toyota 1600 is the last of the analog motors. Plan is to digitize and cast new heads, with some improvements for materials, cooling, etc. The objective is for the motor to be more durable and for the cost to be less.

Thanks for your interest and I hope we have a chance to meet/

Bob

We run Avons on our RT 41 , They last longer and allow the rear to release just enough so the rear does not bind
Dee

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bill gillespie

Hey Russ,
Jay Novak is a member here, and could best speak to your question.....It would be a good alternative if Honda has not lost interest...imho
Regards,
Bill

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honda is not actively continuing the development of the engines.

That said the do have tons of engines and parts available. If your interested just contact me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DB4 Tim

Should have included DB4's ....I'm just saying

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I did some research and found out that indeed the Swift DB4, although originally a Ford motor, easily converted to Toyota 1.6 liter. Can you give me some idea how many DB4's were produced? Also, anything you can do to direct their attention and possible interest in this project would be helpful. Thanks.

Bob

Peter, not sure why I did not reply earlier but now is as good as anytime. The "current" FA cars are the Swift 14 and Swift 16. Occasionally, a Pro Formula Mazda will be in the same class as that is how the SCCA groups are structured. The first objective is to fix the durability problem of the Swift 14 motor, the Toyota 4AGE, 1.6 liters. The heads are basically shot, have been repaired too many times and the result is running out of motor in less than 400 miles. Admittedly, we are running at or about 10800RPM, so they are highly stressed. In terms of not having anyplace to run, I would suggest you look at Formula Race Promotions, specifically the Atlantic Championship Series. This is a 7 weekend series that runs on some of the best tracks in the country, and includes 180 minutes of track time! It is the best series available currently and there is a group of regulars. Sadly, numbers have dropped primarily due to the issues we are now trying to solve. I believe that once we get this first objective accomplished, there will be a large number of cars that will now have a clear, cost effective and reliable solution. As a result we should see participation increase. Specific cars that will be early beneficiaries included, the Swift DB4, Swift 08, Swift 14, and the Ralt RT40/41. Estimates for total number of cars exceeds 150......certainly a large enough market to accomplish some economies of scale if we can get the drivers/buyers organized and aligned . Hope this gives you more insight and encourages you to get involved. Thanks again......Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Ruggiero

This is a great call to action that this FA needs and deserves. I am not a current owner but have had the privilege of running an RT 41 years ago. I saw my first FB car at Lime Rock in 1976 and have been hooked ever since. This is among the finest open wheel class that has ever run in North America. In the heyday of the Players Series, the HFC series and later under CART the series rivaled F2 and F3.
I recently attended the Historic Weekend at Road America and loved seeing once again the Marches, Ralts, Lolas, Chevrons and even a Brabham BT 40 that I knew from the late 1970s and early 1980s. As was pointed out there are probably over 100 Atlantics that could run but they need a place to run. Chassis variety is at the foundation of technical interest and keeping true enthusiast interested. Two or three years ago the "Pro Series" had 15+ cars at Watkins Glen and now 5 chassis are showing up at a weekend. What has happened and what can be done to change the current situation? I applaud the efforts to start the conversation.

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I will be monitoring this conversation closely for progress. My 4AGE head required welding this past rebuild, then I lost the motor with a rod through the block with less than 150 miles on it, making for an expensive single outing. I had to reach deep within to convince myself it is worth persevering with the Swift despite the high maintenance cost. I'm happy to hear someone has taken up the challenge of reproducing parts to reduce overall cost.

Hi Bob,

I found this information regarding the total production of all Swift Atlantics on ConceptCarz.com:

Since 1998, Swift Engineering has been the sole chassis supplier to the Atlantic Series. Swift's involvement in Atlantic started in 1986 wîth the introduction of the Swift DB-4 which dominated the Series for five years. When the Series adopted a 'one design chassis' format in 1998, Swift was chosen to provide the chassis.

The first Swift Atlantic chassis designed specifically for the one design format was christened the Swift 008.a. Since 1998, over fifty 008.a chassis have been sold by Swift and raced by the competitors. This chassis has proven to be extremely reliable and, at the same time, cost effective to race in a professional series.

For 2002, Swift developed the next Atlantic chassis, the Swift 014.a, which was a faster and more agile evolution of the Swift 008.a. This chassis was also in competition for four consecutive years. Since the start of the 2006 Champ Car Atlantic season, teams have competed wîth a new Formula Atlantic car, the Swift 016.a.

The breakdown of the total number of Atlantic cars manufactured by Swift, up to the time of delivery of the first batch of forty 016.a cars, is as follows: DB-4: 88 cars, 008.a: 53 cars, 014.a: 41 cars, 016.a: 45 cars. A total of 227 cars.

Best,

Glenn

Bob,
Thanks for your reply to my note.
I am familiar with the current series and attended this past weekend's event at NJMP.
Sadly the field consisted of four cars and to your earlier point about the 014/Toyota all ran Mazda engines.
I appreciate your explanation about the issues with the Toyota powered cars but what about all the 016s that are out there?
Is a there an issue with the Mazda motor a well? The FRP is a good series, as I mentioned the Glen event of two years ago with strong field at a great venue, but I worry about the effects of small fields and even ultimately weather the SCCA will continue to support FA on the club level.
Right now if I am not abe to participate on the track please let me know how can support this valiant effort.
Peter

Glenn,

Incredibly helpful.....nothing makes the point better than real numbers!! This makes the opportunity that much better. The bigger the buy in the bigger the savings. Once the head and block are solved, we have focus on other improvements to make even more performance as wanted. This is really good news and illustrates how important it is that we all work together to maximize the opportunity!

Bob

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gbilawsky

Hi Bob,

I found this information regarding the total production of all Swift Atlantics on ConceptCarz.com:

Since 1998, Swift Engineering has been the sole chassis supplier to the Atlantic Series. Swift's involvement in Atlantic started in 1986 wîth the introduction of the Swift DB-4 which dominated the Series for five years. When the Series adopted a 'one design chassis' format in 1998, Swift was chosen to provide the chassis.

The first Swift Atlantic chassis designed specifically for the one design format was christened the Swift 008.a. Since 1998, over fifty 008.a chassis have been sold by Swift and raced by the competitors. This chassis has proven to be extremely reliable and, at the same time, cost effective to race in a professional series.

For 2002, Swift developed the next Atlantic chassis, the Swift 014.a, which was a faster and more agile evolution of the Swift 008.a. This chassis was also in competition for four consecutive years. Since the start of the 2006 Champ Car Atlantic season, teams have competed wîth a new Formula Atlantic car, the Swift 016.a.

The breakdown of the total number of Atlantic cars manufactured by Swift, up to the time of delivery of the first batch of forty 016.a cars, is as follows: DB-4: 88 cars, 008.a: 53 cars, 014.a: 41 cars, 016.a: 45 cars. A total of 227 cars.

Best,

Glenn

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Peter,
Thanks for attending and commenting. Yes the 14's in attendance are running the Mazda package, with not good results and very high cost. Again, they should be applauded for keeping the car alive but it is not a viable solution. The "reproduction" of the original 1.6 liter motor is the most viable and the most cost effective......the more agreement we have on this basic issue, the more cost effective it becomes.
Re the Swift 16, they run the Cosworth Mazda 2.3 liter is a problem that is evolving but not severe right now. The solution will be the same as the Swift 14, and we will get started on that next.
I am in contact with the SCCA and they are supportive of our efforts and will be supportive. You may not have noticed, but the FRP is sanctioned by USAC, basically following SCCA Rules.
The fact that you are active and supportive is very helpful. As I stated in the original post, the objective is a Formula Atlantic Registry that includes all cars and drivers. That will result in the drivers (the people paying the bills) getting the best value possible. Keep spreading the word and get ready to start racing!
Bob

PS you only need to look at the results to see how competitive the current 1.6 liter motor is . Hopefully, the same will hold true for Runoffs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Ruggiero

Bob,
Thanks for your reply to my note.
I am familiar with the current series and attended this past weekend's event at NJMP.
Sadly the field consisted of four cars and to your earlier point about the 014/Toyota all ran Mazda engines.
I appreciate your explanation about the issues with the Toyota powered cars but what about all the 016s that are out there?
Is a there an issue with the Mazda motor a well? The FRP is a good series, as I mentioned the Glen event of two years ago with strong field at a great venue, but I worry about the effects of small fields and even ultimately weather the SCCA will continue to support FA on the club level.
Right now if I am not abe to participate on the track please let me know how can support this valiant effort.
Peter

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Keep the faith!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Joules5

I will be monitoring this conversation closely for progress. My 4AGE head required welding this past rebuild, then I lost the motor with a rod through the block with less than 150 miles on it, making for an expensive single outing. I had to reach deep within to convince myself it is worth persevering with the Swift despite the high maintenance cost. I'm happy to hear someone has taken up the challenge of reproducing parts to reduce overall cost.

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UPDATE. A bit ironic that I had to withdraw from the Runoffs as the last gasp of a motor failed on the dyno. Cause is something all of us are familiar with......cylinder head malfunction!
So, with that said we are starting on the development of the new head and block program a bit earlier than expected. I am hopeful that we will have something to bring to the market by early 2019. The objective remains the same.....to aggregate all buyers on a Registry and standardize/improve the two parts that are no longer viable, notably, OEM blocks and heads for the 4AGE motor. Please continue to encourage others than can benefit from this development to get on this site AND more importantly to not go into the "development" with other expensive and unproven solutions.

Sorry to hear about your power plant, I am just waiting for the same thing to happen to my RT41, Keep us posted
hopefully new upgrades with bring the old group out again
Dee
RT 41
RT 5

Interested in what you find as a solution, it would be awesome to have a drop in option to replace the 4AGE like some series have with the Honda K series or similar.

Slightly off topic but the mention of some needing 10800rpm also has me interested as to why everyone has the need to pull so many RPM's. This in itself would go back to a time when they were developing the motors but my motor with the 10,000rpm limit has been prepared for a much lower power band, but at the same time my motor makes the same if not more power at 9200 on EFI than the carb'd cars seem to make up past 10,000rpm. The net result is my lower revving motor lasts a lot longer as it never goes much over 9300rpm

run my motor to 9100 rpm on the dyno it makes 248 hp according to Loyning it should last 20 hrs before o/h
Dee