Only 5 CF/ FF at Summit point?

Were there really only 5 CF and FF cars at Summit this weekend? That's awfully close to a solo event.

Ok, time to call these folks out. I'm sure they're good drivers and nice people, but what gives? You'd think they'd want to race with more cars and better competition next month, unless, of course, they're too scared of 'vintage' drivers and are just hiding in the Miata Car Club of America.:beer:

Also, the treaded tires remain competitive with SCCA lap times for multiple weekends. What do you have to lose by trying a vintage race like the Jefferson 500? Maybe you enjoy "wings and things"

Please understand this is all said in fun. :beer:

Cheers,
Scott

Hi Scott, I was up there talking to Clay about fixing my motor. There were at least another 6 CF/FF drivers in the paddock without their cars. Summit Point weather is usually not that nice in early April so some cars were not ready or other plans had been made for that weekend. Hopefully we will all get our acts together and make it on track at the same time! Vintage is intriguing but until I can get this Crossle reliable I don't need to also undertake the transition to different tires. Hopefully one day I will be able to race with vintage as well as SCCA.
Mark

Mark, I know you've been through the wringer with your car. Most have been, or will be there. I usually don't count coulda's, but let's ASS-U-ME all 6 unloaded from the trailer, would 11 be an above, below, or average sized field?

We had 30+ at VIR the week before with Saturday being a washout.

My main question is why not vintage? Is SCCA really working that well for CF cars?

I'd like to purchase that Kool-Aid

but wanted to throw out a comment; as I cannot resist!

It is not about desiring competition, but rather 'the change' from a known to unknown (ie... Slick to Tread).

I do not say this to poke, but rather as an observation over the past 10+ years. As a founder of VRG, and the key proponent of allowing CF to run with HF (treaded tires only), before anyone else did it has been nothing but an uphill battle to get folks to change. Once they do, I have yet to see anyone leave as we (all the vintage groups in US) are what the regional SCCA was in the prime years of FF.

This is not your typical vintage group, Royale Formula Ford Challenge Series is a 'Formula Ford' drivers group. We have some of the fastest guys on the east coast. Come on out and see why?

Having sold a FF to an SCCA racer I can give a little insight into the resistance. Basically he felt a "real" race car ran on slicks. Treaded tires, as found in vintage for our Fords and most of the Prod cars is looked down on. While this i nonsensical it is a bias (pun intended) that will need to be changed by inviting them to watch or participate. I am bringing a person to Summit who raced a Lola 202 when it was new. I suspect he is going to be amazed.

Robby

Are other classes of vintage cars required to use a different type of tire than the one they raced on in period?

Maybe this is a bit of a thread hijack but I’ve got lots of laps in current FF’s, Club Fords, and Vintage Fords. I’d rather run on treaded bias plys than the SCCA spec Hoosier radials anyday. The treads last forever, are dead consistent, the cars are lively to drive and (unlike the radials), they still feel like FF’s, just with a lower threshold.

Ymmv

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Originally Posted by Mark Walthew

Are other classes of vintage cars required to use a different type of tire than the one they raced on in period?

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Vintage cars run on period correct tires. Even Prod Classes did not have slicks in the 60's and 70's. Most cars are built to 1972 SCCA Rules, so yes they run on treaded tires. You can run on slick but you go up with the more current cars and are outclassed and out HP'd.

FYI British FF have run with treaded tires as per the original rules. We went with slicks sometime, and correct me if I am wrong, in the mid 80's.

US FF began running slicks in the early '70's.

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Originally Posted by BorkRacing

Vintage cars run on period correct tires. Even Prod Classes did not have slicks in the 60's and 70's. Most cars are built to 1972 SCCA Rules, so yes they run on treaded tires. You can run on slick but you go up with the more current cars and are outclassed and out HP'd.

FYI British FF have run with treaded tires as per the original rules. We went with slicks sometime, and correct me if I am wrong, in the mid 80's.

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1973 FV was on slicks, my first year. I'm sure FF was. IIRC, by 71 they were on slicks.

Treaded tires are fun to drive on. Plenty of traction but when they let go they do gently and just go into a nice slide. I find once the slicks let go you better be right on the ball to catch it. The other good thing is if it looks like it might rain, who cares.

It took untill 1994 for the rest of the Formula Ford world to race on slicks. Coincidentally that also started the decline of FF in the UK too, along with the introduction of the Zetec motor. FF1600 is still very healthy and has only ever run on treaded tires. Avon ACB10 or the 9 which is the Dunlop vintage style tire.

Most cars produced were designed around the treaded tires. There are plenty in the paddocks that could help get a Crossle up to speed quickly with the treads. :thumbsup:

With a month to go there are 48 FF entries for the Jefferson 500 at Summit. Those are golden age of FF numbers. Kudos to the RFFCS BOD and VRG for bringing back a competitive and fun venue for our cars!

I was one of the guys at the track without my car. The weather is typically not great for MARRS 1. At this point I really only have interest in running RCFFS events with friends. Our group lets you run Honda or a Ford and the tires are open. Its nice to see CF cars and modern cars running in the series together. Once I had some seat time with the SCCA radial I am fine with it. I have decided that there is no perfect tire everyone wants something different. For example I have no desire to run on anything but a true racing slick. I was looking at buying a Crossle CF before. If I could only run treaded tires or anything other than a slick I would not be interested in running the car. Do I like the feel of my old R35's YES!!! Does the new radial do its job yes. This is just my opinion on how I feel. Not a jab at anyone or another tire debate.

The car count at MARRS1 was not all that high in any of the classes, 6 CF was actually rather good. I really don't want to hear the cry of big SM numbers from the SP rats who never leave SP for any other racetrack. The we only run at SP contingent is so strong that WDCR added an all SP series. The tracks paddock access rules send me to other tracks to race my SRF and P2 cars.

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Originally Posted by scott fairchild

Were there really only 5 CF and FF cars at Summit this weekend? That's awfully close to a solo event.

Ok, time to call these folks out. I'm sure they're good drivers and nice people, but what gives? You'd think they'd want to race with more cars and better competition next month, unless, of course, they're too scared of 'vintage' drivers and are just hiding in the Miata Car Club of America.:beer:

Also, the treaded tires remain competitive with SCCA lap times for multiple weekends. What do you have to lose by trying a vintage race like the Jefferson 500? Maybe you enjoy "wings and things"

Please understand this is all said in fun. :beer:

Cheers,
Scott

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I'm part of the DC region and pretty much after I joined FF, it seemed as if a big fallout happened with the entire open wheel groups, and everyone left. No FV's anymore, there's 1 Pinto based FC that runs with them, but other than that, WDCR doesn't have too much support from the Open wheel side of things. Right Coast FF Series is where everyone is!

Spec Car Club of America?:ha:

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Originally Posted by scott fairchild

Spec Car Club of America?:ha:

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Probably at this point! haha

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Originally Posted by teamwisconsin

Maybe this is a bit of a thread hijack but I’ve got lots of laps in current FF’s, Club Fords, and Vintage Fords. I’d rather run on treaded bias plys than the SCCA spec Hoosier radials anyday. The treads last forever, are dead consistent, the cars are lively to drive and (unlike the radials), they still feel like FF’s, just with a lower threshold.

Ymmv

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There's something about a 101mph entry speed to T1 at Road Atlanta that I just like so much though :beer::beer:

I never drove a CF or FF on treaded tires until last year. I like it. Yes, the corner speeds are not nearly as high but we're all on the same tire and they last a season with no discernible drop off. Another benefit seems to be that these tires breathe new life into the older chassis'. Makes the competition more fun up and down the field. I do miss driving in the rain with a proper rain spec tire, but that's a small loss - and I don't have to panic getting ready for whatever is the weather.

And the fields! I'm one of those geezers who remembers Nationals in the '70s drawing 35 to 50 cars all the time. We're doing it again and none of the drivers are out there on Daddy's money trying to prove they're the next Mario Andretti. The stories I could tell.

JG

While there is a slightly slower corner speed on treads, I'd doubt most will notice that 1mph difference. The front non-pro SCCA drivers aren't exactly putting up lap times that are much different than the front vintage drivers on treads. Maybe that's the tire, or maybe it's a result of the competition in vintage. There are easily 10 to 12 driver/ car combos that could win the Jefferson.

Anyone remember the last time that could be said at a Spectator Car Club of America race? I was probably still in diapers.

It'd be a shame if someone in a pre-'72 treaded car went into the 1:19s next month...

I also hear many promote SCCA's impound policy as a good thing, making sure people don't cheat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't someone else have to run against someone for there to be a protest filed?

The liferafts are filling up quickly... :meatball:

I am sure the treaded tires are fine, I want to try them. From my viewpoint vintage racing always seemed to have rules making it very difficult for competitive SCCA cars to be run in Vintage. In the past cars had to be a certain age, had to have steel wheels, only original Ford parts in the motor, no canister shocks etc.

I found the tire rule to be quite hypocritical as all of the rules that kept SCCA cars out were meant to "retain originality" but the cars ran on tires they did not race on originally in the USA.

I realize that has all changed (except for Hondas) and you welcome SCCA cars with open arms now which is great. Best of luck and hopefully we will all have a great time racing wherever we choose to do so.

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Originally Posted by scott fairchild(

While there is a slightly slower corner speed on treads, I'd doubt most will notice that 15mph difference. The front non-pro SCCA drivers aren't exactly putting up lap times that are much different than the front vintage drivers on treads.

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I know this is all in good fun, but C'mon..... 1 mph difference?(Updated that). There's more guests to this forum than Members, so lets not get a new guy thinking he can reasonably take T1 at 100 with a treaded car ! We gotta keep them around man:ha: :beer::beer:

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Originally Posted by scott fairchild

It'd be a shame if someone in a pre-'72 treaded car went into the 1:19s next month...

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Honestly, the track should be lightyears faster. A CF the weekend threw down a 1:18.9 on like the first day! I don't know if he was even on new tires!
This year will be very fast, so yea, lets hope someone can throw around a treaded car into the 19's !!

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Originally Posted by scott fairchild

I also hear many promote SCCA's impound policy as a good thing, making sure people don't cheat. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't someone else have to run against someone for there to be a protest filed?

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You're right about the impound, and you're right about someone else having to be there, but again, the numbers at SCCA-WDCR aren't worth using as an input. Every open-wheel pretty much left the MARRS races. All FF basically run with the Right Coast FF now.

PS. I'm not against treaded. To me I'm sure it would be like smacking a bull and going for a ride :revs:

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Originally Posted by S. Frebert

Right Coast FF Series is where everyone is!

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Not wanting to slam the Right Coast FF Series, but your counts in general are not that much better ... are they? The Royale Formula Ford Challenge Series is seeing 25+ cars on a regular basis (40+ at premier events). All on the same tires, same engine (ie.. Spec) to equalize competition as it was originally meant to be. RCFFS is allowing all Formula F, any tire, any engine ... not sure that is what Formula Ford was all about.

Of course I am biased on this matter!

Based on the thread, can we ALL now agree that the primary reason for why we are not one family is TIRES? What a shame, as the Royale Formula Ford Challenge Series is all about the drivers and camaraderie. At least I think we have debunked one myth, hopefully forever ....

Vintage Racing is not Racing!

Sounds to me the folks attached to the RFFCS are the SCCA of the past, the rest are just catering to stubborn ideals. Sorry for the harsh words, but is that not the reality?

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Originally Posted by S. Frebert

You're right about the impound, and you're right about someone else having to be there, but All FF basically run with the Right Coast FF now.

PS. I'm not against treaded. To me I'm sure it would be like smacking a bull and going for a ride :revs:

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Really? All FFs?
In AZ, we average about 12, 15 weekends a year at about 10 tracks. Sometimes 20, sometimes 8 cars.
I would not consider us right Coast.
We run treads....just saying...:beer:

SCCA doesn't have road racing here anymore, only AutoX.

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Originally Posted by RoyaleRacingLLC

Based on the thread, can we ALL now agree that the primary reason for why we are not one family is TIRES? What a shame, as the Royale Formula Ford Challenge Series is all about the drivers and camaraderie.

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Doesn't your series prohibit Honda's?

I'd be happy to compare corner speeds and lap times.

When the F1600 series had its first race at VIR a few years ago, they shared the track with VDCA and the BMWCCA. There were a handful of us in 35+ year old (pre-DB1) cars, on treads, whose lap times would have qualified them in the middle of the field for the pro race (which had 30+) cars. So yeah, we just putt around:checkered:

[QUOTE=S. Frebert;559634]I know this is all in good fun, but C'mon..... 1 mph difference?(Updated that). There's more guests to this forum than Members, so lets not get a new guy thinking he can reasonably take T1 at 100 with a treaded car ! We gotta keep them around man:ha: :beer::beer:


If I'm closer to 15mph slower in the corners than a SCCA CF on slicks, I'll buy you a beer. If I'm closer to 1 mph slower, you buy the beer.
Deal?

Unless of course, you're wrong...:ha:

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Originally Posted by RoyaleRacingLLC

Not wanting to slam the Right Coast FF Series, but your counts in general are not that much better ... are they? The Royale Formula Ford Challenge Series is seeing 25+ cars on a regular basis (40+ at premier events). All on the same tires, same engine (ie.. Spec) to equalize competition as it was originally meant to be. RCFFS is allowing all Formula F, any tire, any engine ... not sure that is what Formula Ford was all about.

Of course I am biased on this matter!

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Originally Posted by RoyaleRacingLLC

Based on the thread, can we ALL now agree that the primary reason for why we are not one family is TIRES? What a shame, as the Royale Formula Ford Challenge Series is all about the drivers and camaraderie. At least I think we have debunked one myth, hopefully forever ....

Vintage Racing is not Racing!

Sounds to me the folks attached to the RFFCS are the SCCA of the past, the rest are just catering to stubborn ideals. Sorry for the harsh words, but is that not the reality?

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I'm still debating on truly responding to everything you say because you, and others in this thread almost irrefutably have ulterior motives. None of these posts meant negatively, yet at any possible hint (mind you text is one of the worst forms of communication) you see, you immediately jump on the thread, then stoop low enough and say what you said. Forget the apology since you don't even mean it. You saw a chance to contort a conversation of "Just for fun" and you're trying to turn it into a hateful debate & argument.

Take a look at this:
2121 users online. 260 members and 1861 guests

I want you to stare at that. Now understand the importance. When you take "Just for fun" threads, and try to apply about as much negativity as one possibly could in a couple posts, what part of you realizes that there are THAT many guests.... and so few members....

If the light bulb hasn't come on yet, I'm saying, who would want to be a Member of this site, when a thread "For fun" can't even make it 3 days!!!! Please tell me you see that reality.

To end this, I ask you respond to me personally regarding what I've said, as this has now moved on to between you and I.

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Originally Posted by marshall9

Really? All FFs?
In AZ, we average about 12, 15 weekends a year at about 10 tracks. Sometimes 20, sometimes 8 cars.
I would not consider us right Coast.
We run treads....just saying...:beer:

SCCA doesn't have road racing here anymore, only AutoX.

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Marshall. You've been here a long time. So, I will make this crystal clear to you. Do not ever, take a quote from something I say, and modify it so it looks to provoke some type argument, or modify it at all.

Below is what I really said. All FF (Within the same quote, I'm referring to the WDCR Region!!!). There is no argument to be had, so stop trying to make one. There is no way to misinterpret what I said, with a thread that talks about the WDCR Region in the first place!!

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Originally Posted by S. Frebert

You're right about the impound, and you're right about someone else having to be there, but again, the numbers at SCCA-WDCR aren't worth using as an input. Every open-wheel pretty much left the MARRS races. All FF basically run with the Right Coast FF now.

PS. I'm not against treaded. To me I'm sure it would be like smacking a bull and going for a ride :revs:

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Originally Posted by scott fairchild

I'd be happy to compare corner speeds and lap times.

When the F1600 series had its first race at VIR a few years ago, they shared the track with VDCA and the BMWCCA. There were a handful of us in 35+ year old (pre-DB1) cars, on treads, whose lap times would have qualified them in the middle of the field for the pro race (which had 30+) cars. So yeah, we just putt around:checkered:

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Scott I'd reply to this, talk about some stories, Compare speeds and times ask some questions out of curiosity, I really really would love to, but damn, after all this, should I even bother? Woulda been nice, maybe to avoid all they political B.s. we'll P.M. sometime.

Because I can't avoid saying it............... I cannot wait to race at VIR!! haha

I would like to hear what you have to say...

No motives present, the RFFCS is a successful series for Formula Ford drivers. Our model speaks for itself, and our competitors prove time and time again, we have some of the highest levels of competition in the US, but especially on the East Coast. Would I like to see a true uniformity throughout regions, yes. It only makes us better.

See you at the races!

Two pages before it turned into yet another "us versus them" discussion.
Be proud boys, be proud!

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Originally Posted by stonebridge20

Two pages before it turned into yet another "us versus them" discussion.
Be proud boys, be proud!

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Sounds more like that is your twist than reality. A question was raised, reasoning was mentioned ... A proposed summation was offered. At the end of the day, why can't we join as one. Is it competition or the proposed tire that separate us from uniting. Lots of folks makes claims .... What is the answer? SCCA has abandoned open wheel, fact. In order to keep this alive we need to stick together. What make that happen?

So instead of being afraid, the question is raised. Tires or level of competition? Is there another reason? Speak up, let's air this out and do the needful. Don't turn your back, say what needs to be said or you are part of the problem, not the solution.

Bottom line, I love the cars, people and want my kids to follow. So why not ask?

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Originally Posted by RoyaleRacingLLC

Sounds more like that is your twist than reality. A question was raised, reasoning was mentioned ... A proposed summation was offered. At the end of the day, why can't we join as one. Is it competition or the proposed tire that separate us from uniting. Lots of folks makes claims .... What is the answer? SCCA has abandoned open wheel, fact. In order to keep this alive we need to stick together. What make that happen?

So instead of being afraid, the question is raised. Tires or level of competition? Is there another reason? Speak up, let's air this out and do the needful. Don't turn your back, say what needs to be said or you are part of the problem, not the solution.

Bottom line, I love the cars, people and want my kids to follow. So why not ask?

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To be short:


That's fine, just do it in another thread, realistically your own thread. So that way you can have a completely relevant, elaborate discussion about it. Instead of hijacking this one and forcing it in the first place.

Please do that so I can talk some racing with Scott and Bet him a beer on a couple things :ha:

:beer:

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Originally Posted by S. Frebert

To be short:


That's fine, just do it in another thread, realistically your own thread. So that way you can have a completely relevant, elaborate discussion about it. Instead of hijacking this one and forcing it in the first place.

Please do that so I can talk some racing with Scott and Bet him a beer on a couple things :ha:

:beer:

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Can't wait to see the results .... Good luck. Don't recall a hijack but I'll let you be, it's obvious what the answer is whether or not you want to admit it. I'll stick with success and competition, you got tires.

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Originally Posted by RoyaleRacingLLC

Not wanting to slam the Right Coast FF Series, but your counts in general are not that much better ... are they? The Royale Formula Ford Challenge Series is seeing 25+ cars on a regular basis (40+ at premier events). All on the same tires, same engine (ie.. Spec) to equalize competition as it was originally meant to be. RCFFS is allowing all Formula F, any tire, any engine ... not sure that is what Formula Ford was all about.

Of course I am biased on this matter!

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To ensure the misinformation and speculation of this post is addressed, here is the 2017 Right Coast Formula F Series Data:

NJMP: 18
Mid Ohio: 17
Pitt: 17
Summit Point: 18

Average: 17.5

There's a lot of noise here...Thanks for the post, Will.

Scott; you are correct that in the first FF race at VIR in 2011, your fast race lap the other weekend would have put you in the field. The FRP FF group has evolved a bit since then. Slowest qualifying lap from last year was a 2:04, and the lap record is a 1:56.4, set in 2014. Why don't you throw a set of slicks on and join us for a race or two?

RCFFS and FRP tend to work together and there is a flow of cars from one series to the other. Its a nice symbiosis.

Mr. RoyaleRacingLLC; You make a number of provocative statements. I invite you to attend one of our weekends (if you haven't already as I don't know who you are) and see what goes on. There is a difference between a Crossle 25 and a modern Mygale or Spectrum, Mr. Rand's notwithstanding (and he can wheel that car!).

Bob,
You are and have always been a fine ambassador of the sport.
Others would be advised to follow your lead.

Bob,

We've never met, but I've been a fan of your series for awhile. In 2014, which isn't the year I was referencing, 2 of us ran in the 2:05s at VIR on the treads, it required a draft the entire lap though. Fastest single car lap since is 2:06.9, so I know we've missed our window. ;) I appreciate the invite and intend on running with you this season or next.

The competition in your series is fierce as well, so I would be a field filler in a CF. I'm working on allocating funds so that I might rent a seat with a team for a few events. Not looking to win, but when in Rome...

Cheers,
Scott

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Originally Posted by scott fairchild

Bob,

I'm working on allocating funds so that I might rent a seat with a team for a few events. Not looking to win, but when in Rome...

Cheers,
Scott

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Woah! Not to hijack a post but, hey, this is a Bombshell! Scott Fairchild is going Pro!? How did this story get past Racer magazine? Scott, do you have a manager? Don't sign anything without having your personal attorney and manager negotiate the deal. My fees are very reasonable.

:checkered::beer: