Make majors a 3 day event - not 4

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11.21.15, 10:24 PM
JerryH

Make majors a 3 day event - not 4

Majors were, for the most part, 4 day events this year (including the test day).

People with real jobs find it difficult to take that much time off work every race weekend. IF they do go, often they are forced to show up on Friday and have no chance to practice before qualifying. Some are not going to as many Majors as they otherwise would.....or in some cases none at all.

Make them 3 day events (including the test day) and participation will increase. I see no reason why we can't do that.

Even with all the classes we have, we should still be able to do this:
Practice Friday...... one qualify and one race Saturday....one race Sunday.

Some of the North conference majors did it this year (Michigan for one)....and it went very well.

Jerry Hodges
11.23.15, 7:44 PM
JohnPaul

Jerry, they are 3 day events.....99% of the time the test day is run by the track. What are you going to do? Tell them to stop? Plus I've never heard anyone say they didn't want to come because of the "test day" making things unfair. The fastest guys I know can show up ten minutes before the race and win. The test helps the guys that don't know the track learn or need to set the car up have a better chance at being competitive.....
11.23.15, 8:14 PM
JerryH

test day

JP

I am suggesting making Friday the track test day....for a TOTAL OF 3 DAYS INCLUDING THE TEST DAY. That was common practice at National races for many years.

This is one complaint about the Majors program I heard frequently. Judging from the "likes" on the original post, many people agree.

Practice on Friday (instead of Thursday). Qual and race on Saturday. Qual and Race on Sunday. Or skip the sun qual and everyone gets to go head home a bit earlier Sunday.

Currently, if you can't be there Thursday, you get very little (or no) track time before qualifying....and many can not make Thursdays at every Majors they would like to attend.

Jerry
11.23.15, 11:18 PM
SStadel

Nationals were also singles back then not doubles. You're comparing apples to oranges. What you're talking about (2 races) would take 6 days over two weekends. Which would you rather have.
11.23.15, 11:57 PM
andyllc

Here we go again....but...
I think SCCA should just change the schedule to be Qual, Race, Race, Race. I can handle the 4 day (including test day) event for three races. Easier to justify the cost, more fun, more races. We are racers, not qualifiers, not practicers, but racers. Let's race.

If not and it stays at 2 races then I agree. Make it one day shorter, even if that means the Sunday race isn't quite as long as it currently is.
11.24.15, 3:23 PM
JohnPaul

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryH

JP

I am suggesting making Friday the track test day....for a TOTAL OF 3 DAYS INCLUDING THE TEST DAY. That was common practice at National races for many years.

This is one complaint about the Majors program I heard frequently. Judging from the "likes" on the original post, many people agree.

Practice on Friday (instead of Thursday). Qual and race on Saturday. Qual and Race on Sunday. Or skip the sun qual and everyone gets to go head home a bit earlier Sunday.

Currently, if you can't be there Thursday, you get very little (or no) track time before qualifying....and many can not make Thursdays at every Majors they would like to attend.

Jerry

Again.....SCCA can't and won't stop the track from having a Thurs open practice. Again...... the schedule is a 3 days and you get to BOTH test and qualify. Then you get a 2nd qualifier on Saturday and race. Now.... let's think about what happens when you don't get a 2nd qualifier.... you basically get screwed by the numbskull that black flags the session on the first lap or when something stupid happens to the car and you miss the session. Anyone that races knows this happens just about every weekend. Now.... if substituting Saturday qualifier for a 3rd race, that sounds great
11.24.15, 4:16 PM
cory mcleod

Quote:

Originally Posted by SStadel

Nationals were also singles back then not doubles. You're comparing apples to oranges. What you're talking about (2 races) would take 6 days over two weekends. Which would you rather have.

"Back then" in the MiDiv, we ran Regional/National weekends, with qualifying and races for each group on Sat and Sun, so it can definitely be done. One problem would be the number of run groups, which would probably be limited to 5-6, which would cause people like me to complain about unsafe run groups.

I would also be one of the people complaining about limited track time if a 2-day schedule resulted in only 3 sessions for the weekend, UNLESS the entry fee was also significantly reduced. That would allow more people to pay for the Friday practice day, which would make the 2-dayers and 3-dayers happy. So, how much will the entry fee be reduced if Majors go to 2 days?

Cory
11.24.15, 4:58 PM
Wren

We did the Kansas Major race this year that was a three day event. Friday test day, Saturday Q & R1, Sunday warm up and R2. It was horrible. That is no where near enough track time for the expense and effort. They are even shorter than the old double race weekends.

The weekends aren't going to get cheaper, these short majors are just going to give people even less value for their money.

After this, we completely changed our season plans to run only pro events since they didn't suck.

After multiple years, I am still unable to name a single good thing about the Majors program.
11.24.15, 6:47 PM
Steve Demeter

Double Regionals are run on two days all the time. Why do double majors need three. I agree a double Majors should also be able to run in two days. Actually there are fewer classes in Majors than regionals.

And the entry fees should go down due to decreased track rental costs.
11.24.15, 11:54 PM
Todd Butler

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Demeter

Double Regionals are run on two days all the time. Why do double majors need three. I agree a double Majors should also be able to run in two days. Actually there are fewer classes in Majors than regionals.

And the entry fees should go down due to decreased track rental costs.

Somebody's not paying attention. SCCA is not renting the track for the test day, it is the track's own test day or a 3rd party test day (eg Pro Drive in the PNW). Track rental for 2 days costs the same whether you get 1 session a day or 5 sessions a day. What really drives the entry cost is the number of entries needed to make the weekend pay for itself. A relatively "cheap" track like Portland costs around $15-16K/day to put on an event and just break even for that day. Other tracks like Laguna and Sonoma are north of $20K/day just for the track, not counting ambulance, feeding workers, tow trucks, communications for flag stations, etc.

It's important to note that SCCA regions don't just have to break even, they have to put a little money in the bank at each event as well to cover office overhead, capital equipment replacement, expenses for living thru the off season, etc.

Above basically applies for Regionals and Majors, it costs more or less the same to run the event. Really only the SCCA fees paid to Topeka vary between Majors and Regional events.

I don't t know what the answer is, it's a vicious cycle. Fewer drivers showing up and continually increasing track costs directly impacts the entry fees. Oregon region entry fees are at ~$400 now for a double regional with about 950-970 total entries for the year. Entry fees used to be in the $250 range and we had 1200+ entries years ago. So don't know what is cause and what is effect. In the same time, fees paid to rent the track, ambulance etc have all doubled as well increasing the number of cars needed to break even.

Bottom line, you want lower entry fees? Help get the entries up so Regions can charge less per entry.

Todd Butler
Area 13 Director (for 1 more month)
11.25.15, 3:27 PM
JerryH

double race weekends

Quote:

Originally Posted by SStadel

Nationals were also singles back then not doubles. You're comparing apples to oranges. What you're talking about (2 races) would take 6 days over two weekends. Which would you rather have.

Actually.....at least in the Midwest.....the races were usually regional/national weekends....with track test day Friday....and regional on sat and national on sunday. It always worked out well.

Jerry
11.25.15, 3:29 PM
SStadel

In the Midwest, yes. Not in CenDiv. Car counts were too high and Regionals and Nationals were on different weekends. Nationals were single race weekends.
11.25.15, 3:44 PM
JerryH

entry fees/number of days

More entries will definitely help entry fees.....but so will renting the track for 2 days instead of 3.....and that might bring in more entries....so the circle might be toward lower entry fees instead of higher.

When the scca weekend is 3 days.... plus the Thursday track test day.....SCCA IS RENTING THE TRACK FOR 3 DAYS....with official practice and qualifying on Friday.

Jerry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd Butler

Somebody's not paying attention. SCCA is not renting the track for the test day, it is the track's own test day or a 3rd party test day (eg Pro Drive in the PNW). Track rental for 2 days costs the same whether you get 1 session a day or 5 sessions a day. What really drives the entry cost is the number of entries needed to make the weekend pay for itself. A relatively "cheap" track like Portland costs around $15-16K/day to put on an event and just break even for that day. Other tracks like Laguna and Sonoma are north of $20K/day just for the track, not counting ambulance, feeding workers, tow trucks, communications for flag stations, etc.

It's important to note that SCCA regions don't just have to break even, they have to put a little money in the bank at each event as well to cover office overhead, capital equipment replacement, expenses for living thru the off season, etc.

Above basically applies for Regionals and Majors, it costs more or less the same to run the event. Really only the SCCA fees paid to Topeka vary between Majors and Regional events.

I don't t know what the answer is, it's a vicious cycle. Fewer drivers showing up and continually increasing track costs directly impacts the entry fees. Oregon region entry fees are at ~$400 now for a double regional with about 950-970 total entries for the year. Entry fees used to be in the $250 range and we had 1200+ entries years ago. So don't know what is cause and what is effect. In the same time, fees paid to rent the track, ambulance etc have all doubled as well increasing the number of cars needed to break even.

Bottom line, you want lower entry fees? Help get the entries up so Regions can charge less per entry.

Todd Butler
Area 13 Director (for 1 more month)
11.25.15, 3:48 PM
JerryH

number of entries

Quote:

Originally Posted by SStadel

In the Midwest, yes. Not in CenDiv. Car counts were too high and Regionals and Nationals were on different weekends. Nationals were single race weekends.

With the number of entries we are getting at Majors......less than most of the regional/nationals I used to run.......we could definitely do it in 2 days.

IF the entries get to point where it could not be done, then I could see adding a day.....but it's not there now.

Jerry
11.25.15, 6:29 PM
La Scuderia Raggi

SF Region

All 2016 regionals in San Francisco region are three day events with no test day.
Gee, I wonder why they have trouble bringing the younger folks with families and jobs into the fold.
11.25.15, 7:03 PM
Steve Demeter

Tod, I AM PAYING ATTENTION:

The MO Majors every year it has run has been a 3DAY event, Qualify Friday, Qualify Again Friday, Race Saturday, Qualify Saturday, Race Sunday.

I am coming up on 38 years of continuous racing in SCCA and do pay attention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Todd Butler

Somebody's not paying attention. SCCA is not renting the track for the test day, it is the track's own test day or a 3rd party test day (eg Pro Drive in the PNW). Track rental for 2 days costs the same whether you get 1 session a day or 5 sessions a day. What really drives the entry cost is the number of entries needed to make the weekend pay for itself. A relatively "cheap" track like Portland costs around $15-16K/day to put on an event and just break even for that day. Other tracks like Laguna and Sonoma are north of $20K/day just for the track, not counting ambulance, feeding workers, tow trucks, communications for flag stations, etc.

It's important to note that SCCA regions don't just have to break even, they have to put a little money in the bank at each event as well to cover office overhead, capital equipment replacement, expenses for living thru the off season, etc.

Above basically applies for Regionals and Majors, it costs more or less the same to run the event. Really only the SCCA fees paid to Topeka vary between Majors and Regional events.

I don't t know what the answer is, it's a vicious cycle. Fewer drivers showing up and continually increasing track costs directly impacts the entry fees. Oregon region entry fees are at ~$400 now for a double regional with about 950-970 total entries for the year. Entry fees used to be in the $250 range and we had 1200+ entries years ago. So don't know what is cause and what is effect. In the same time, fees paid to rent the track, ambulance etc have all doubled as well increasing the number of cars needed to break even.

Bottom line, you want lower entry fees? Help get the entries up so Regions can charge less per entry.

Todd Butler
Area 13 Director (for 1 more month)
11.25.15, 7:55 PM
JohnPaul

Quote:

Originally Posted by JerryH

With the number of entries we are getting at Majors......less than most of the regional/nationals I used to run.......we could definitely do it in 2 days.

IF the entries get to point where it could not be done, then I could see adding a day.....but it's not there now.

Jerry

You started the thread talking about changing from 4 days to 3 days and now you are down to 2 days?? Why don't we just do one 5 lap warm up and call it a day.... where is this thread going???
11.26.15, 4:04 PM
JerryH

3 days

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnPaul

You started the thread talking about changing from 4 days to 3 days and now you are down to 2 days?? Why don't we just do one 5 lap warm up and call it a day.... where is this thread going???

3 days total INCLUDING THE TRACK TEST DAY is what I was always talking about.

jerry