A few newbie questions about F500 to F600 conversions

Just to introduce myself. My name is Marty and I recently have been reading up on the F500/F600 cars. I come from road racing 125 and 250cc GP motorcycles so these cars seem to be that perfect fit I have been looking for in a formula style car/kart. I recently had a daughter and even though I will always keep a road race bike, my heart isn’t in it to compete like I used to.

Currently I am selling off one of my RS125s and a TZ250 so when they are gone and paid for I will be in the market for a car. I love my 2 strokes, don’t get me wrong, but I think it would be a blast to have a 600 motor and gears to shift. I figured I would run the 2 stroke motor to get through this year and get the car converted over the winter and drive it more next year.

I have found a lot of good info on this site as well as the 2 others but still have a few newbie questions.

What are some good chassis for the conversion? Do early 2000s Red Devils convert well?

I saw a thread saying the Mavericks convert well, do any usually come up for sale in the $5000ish range?

Are there any others I should be checking out? Invaders, KBS, etc.

What companies are still making crash replacement parts? I wouldn’t want to get into something that I couldn’t find body or mechanical parts for. I love to tinker with mechanical bits but I don’t have the artistic ability to fabricate very well. Will that be a problem or are most things off the shelf replacements with the F500/600s?

What safety items do I need to look for in a car? Ie crush boxes, roll cage diameter, belt age, etc?

Do most people buy sight unseen and have the cars shipped? I know there are a lot of factors but what is a ball park estimate of what shipping a car or chassis be?

Who are the most experienced fabricators doing the F600 conversions? I have been checking out a lot of threads about Jay Novak’s builds and they look super clean. Any other builders that may be closer to Colorado?

I live in Denver, is there anyone up here that you guys could recommend I talk to about F500/600 cars or any of the small displacement formula cars?

Thanks for any feedback

Marty

Front Range Motorsports travels to the East at least 7 times a summer. If you find a car in the East, you might strike a deal with J.D. McDermitt to haul it back to the Mile High City. Just a thought.

Marty, see my comments within your quote in bolded red. Lots of great questions and I will do my best to answer them.

Good luck, you will love the F600 package if you can do it... Jay Novak

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Originally Posted by marty77

What are some good chassis for the conversion? Do early 2000s Red Devils convert well? Red Devils can be converted to direct drive. We have not done one but there are several guys out there doing them now. I think it is important to be able to do direct drive as this dramatically increases reliability while reducing costs.

I saw a thread saying the Mavericks convert well, do any usually come up for sale in the $5000ish range? I doubt that you can find a Maverick for that price.

Are there any others I should be checking out? Invaders, KBS, etc. KBS and Invaders can be converted and they are very decent cars. The downside is that you cannot do direct drive just not enough room. Lots of cars out there in your price range. I would estimate another $700 for the extra drive parts, maybe more. We do have a kit for these chassis. NovaKars can also be converted if you can find one for sale.

What companies are still making crash replacement parts? I wouldn’t want to get into something that I couldn’t find body or mechanical parts for. I love to tinker with mechanical bits but I don’t have the artistic ability to fabricate very well. Will that be a problem or are most things off the shelf replacements with the F500/600s? Spares are no problem.

What safety items do I need to look for in a car? Ie crush boxes, roll cage diameter, belt age, etc? If the car has been sitting for a few years you will need belts, crush box, possibly a fire system. Make sure you fully understand what will be needed. Make sure the fuel cell does not leak. DO NOT BUY AN OLDER CAR WITH 1 1/4" diameter roll bars. Just too much $$$ to make it worth while.

Do most people buy sight unseen and have the cars shipped? I know there are a lot of factors but what is a ball park estimate of what shipping a car or chassis be? Do not buy sight unseen. At the least have someone else who is familiar with F500 check it out for you. Shipping is not too bad as there are guys and companies that do this all the time.

Who are the most experienced fabricators doing the F600 conversions? I have been checking out a lot of threads about Jay Novak’s builds and they look super clean. Any other builders that may be closer to Colorado? I do not know of anyone out your way doing conversions. The only other guys doing conversions are Clint and his Dad Dan McMahon and they do a very nice job and they have done a lot of KBS/Invader conversions.

I live in Denver, is there anyone up here that you guys could recommend I talk to about F500/600 cars or any of the small displacement formula cars?

Thanks for any feedback

Marty

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Originally Posted by Purple Frog

Front Range Motorsports travels to the East at least 7 times a summer. If you find a car in the East, you might strike a deal with J.D. McDermitt to haul it back to the Mile High City. Just a thought.

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Thanks! If I find a car that way I will get in touch with them for sure. They are not too far from where I live

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Originally Posted by Jnovak

Marty, see my comments within your quote in bolded red. Lots of great questions and I will do my best to answer them.

Good luck, you will love the F600 package if you can do it... Jay Novak

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Jay, Thanks for the responses and the advise on direct drive! Odds are I will only have this car for some local racing and track day fun and if I have one of the only ones here I would hate to be chasing reliability issues on my own.

Are all of the conversions about the same price? (we can discuss in PM or on the phone if that is more appropriate)

What parts would I need to send you for the conversion (bare chassis or car minus motor) and what all is included in the conversion? Is it turn key if I send you a motor and wiring harness? Do they all come paddle shift or do they come stick shift?

Sounds like a Novakar or Red Devil may be the ticket then. The Red Devils seem to come up on the forum often. I will definitely check out the Novakars if I can find one.

Thanks for the McMahon referral, sound like they are in the south so MI may be my closest bet :D

Is there a prefered motor if I am going for reliability and riding for fun? I have read some threads about issues with dry sumps, is the wet sump a more reliable set up?

I should also add that this car is my way of getting my wife into racing. The bikes were not quite her idea of fun. Are these cars going to beat her to death or are there some options out there for foam seats?

BTW how large are these cars with and without body work? I have a car hauler and a toy hauler that will fit bikes well. I would prefer the toy hauler but I am guessing I would need to pull body work to get it to fit, if it does at all. Are a set of pit wheels the preferred way to load cars this low to the ground? Or should I use ramps or hoists?

I am sure I will have a ton more questions but that is all I can think of now :D Still trying to learn enough to know what I don't know

Just keep reading all the threads here as you learn. Former MC riders make up a large portion of our membership - they get their adrenalin rush but in a roll cage car.
For your children, SCCA's Solo program has junior kart classes to get them started in a very safe environment. IF you can get your F600 running you will build your own F600 community as these cars are very exciting and affordable. Your part of the country has historically only seen one or two F500's. Search around to see if there are any SCCA racers nearby with their own race shop that does fabrication/set-up and track support. This is probably your best approach.

HTH,
Jim
Been messing with these cars since 1982

Another contact would be C.J. McAbee at McAbee Motorsports. Don't have his address or phone number but below is his Facebook page. Ted

https://www.facebook.com/McAbeeMotorsports

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Originally Posted by tedsimmons2

Another contact would be C.J. McAbee at McAbee Motorsports. Don't have his address or phone number but below is his Facebook page. Ted

https://www.facebook.com/McAbeeMotorsports

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Thanks! I will check them out. I spoke to the Front Range Motorsports guys and it sounds like they could get me started on set up but they do larger cars

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Originally Posted by marty77

Thanks! I will check them out.

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CJ lives in Topeka, Kansas.

CJ is also doing a Red Devil conversion right now and he might be able to work with you.

Thanks guys! I just sent him an email

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Originally Posted by marty77

Thanks guys! I just sent him an email

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Hi there, I converted a red devil and it took me one day only. It was really easy if you know fab. The main things were to cut frame and make elbows to fit gsxr motor. And also to get rid of belt drive and install chain drive, which was really easy to do. Do not forget to create a node back to frame next to sproket so rear axle does not bend. Also the pan needs to be modified but it is easy to do. Make sure you make a good rear firewall with good anti heat barrier, motor is close to driver so it could get hot. Good luck. Exhaust was done using oreilley parts in a few minutes. The only problem is that suspension is made of pucks and they can melt if too close to heat, simply add anti barrier to them and you are good to go. Make sure you also change oil radiator and put a bigger one or you will kill your motor.

Wow, a 1 day 600 conversion, you must be pretty handy with a welder. Did you make this a direct drive car without a jackshaft? Are you currently racing the car?

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Originally Posted by TDI PILOT

Wow, a 1 day 600 conversion, you must be pretty handy with a welder. Did you make this a direct drive car without a jackshaft? Are you currently racing the car?

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It was easy, it took my buddy and I 3 hours to cut it and rework it with elbow welded. The welding was easy and took just like one hour. For now it is a direct chain drive like in 125 shifter karts. It has two rods to counter the force so axle does not bend. Right now I am not racing it, but will soon. I am stuck on the fuel cell bladder. My bladder is done and I need a new one, but my size is very diff then any other I have seen and I can not find anything unless I spend 1500 for a custom one. I have the cash but I refuse to pay that much for just a bladder. My size is 25long x 9width x 11high. Beside that I just need to finalize the new battery tray and slim down harness and securize it. The rest is all done. Oh yeah I also have to put a new bigger oil cooler to not blow main Bering. That will take me a day to do. I did not even need to modify pan. I also installed a pingel electronic shifter and changed brake pads to A grade. Got new tires and also designed a new firewall with lots of anti heat because headers are close to back. I did the new exhaust using simple exhaust tube from a car store. That is preaty much all, I just need a fuel cell bladder and I will be ready to race it in no time.

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Originally Posted by TDI PILOT

Wow, a 1 day 600 conversion, you must be pretty handy with a welder. Did you make this a direct drive car without a jackshaft? Are you currently racing the car?

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This is just the first step with this mod and will under GO two other mod steps. The next step is to cut the rear end and make a full rear independent suspension with rear diff. I teach in a state polytechnic college and one of my buddy is in charge of the sae competition and gave me the blue print to modify it like that. It will make car way more competitive with a longer wheel base (class max possible instead of the 73 that it is right now) and better suspension (though pucks are real fast) Then the last mod will be to make front aero and rear aero that are dynamic controlled by arduino. But I will do these mods this summer when I have time. But first I want to see how motor and car react to the mod.

That sounds fun. But if you are planning to race with SCCA, you really need to read the rule book. A lot of what you're doing isn't legal in F500. However, If you just want to build a really cool, go-fast car to play with, you're on the right track!

Please post some pictures of your build. I'm interested to see what you did with the rear axle.

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Originally Posted by GBugg

That sounds fun. But if you are planning to race with SCCA, you really need to read the rule book. A lot of what you're doing isn't legal in F500. However, If you just want to build a really cool, go-fast car to play with, you're on the right track!

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Hi there, yes I read book and will read it again. The dynamic aero is not legal in scca for sure and will be done only if I have time to play for the track. I am not even sure I will have time to race it scca, the corp I will be racing it in Arizona let me use it. They don't really care they race for fun and not legit like scca, it is more like a group of friend at the track day than legit scca. It is mainly a toy to play with while I am finishing my main car for racing a 914 Porsche with a 350 sbc all aluminum block. I just got tired of 125 shifter karts and wanted a small formula so my bottom and back don't hurt on Monday morning. Lol. My formula is the smallest red devil around only 73 inch so it would be competitive in scca anyway. I am just doing it for fun. My problem right now is the bladder, I can not find one of the proper size.

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Originally Posted by TDI PILOT

Please post some pictures of your build. I'm interested to see what you did with the rear axle.

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Ok I will as soon as I figure out how to post pictures on this forum, lol. Right now it is just a direct chain drive on pucks, should be real fast and should require some major feathering when getting out of turns. I have heard from people that drive pucks that it is real fast. I was thinking of putting special puck type of shocks instead of just pucks. But right now I am chasing a bladder that I can not find. I need a bladder 25x7x10 which seems impossible to,find unless I order it custom.

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Originally Posted by Cruzebabuze

Hi there, I converted a red devil and it took me one day only. It was really easy ... <snip>

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When I read this my first thought was, this must be one of those internet Russian trolls we've been reading about in the news lately. :-)

My motorcycle conversion project has taken me two years (working at a more leisurely pace... :-)

Mine isn't an F500/F600, but similar enough. Some of the things I've spent more than a day on:
- Engine mounts
- Wiring/harness, dash
- Chain drive diff mounting, chain adjustability, chain guard
- Shift, clutch & throttle linkage
- Fuel and cooling systems
- Bodywork and suspension changes and a new exhaust system

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Originally Posted by RussMcB

When I read this my first thought was, this must be one of those internet Russian trolls we've been reading about in the news lately. :-)

My motorcycle conversion project has taken me two years (working at a more leisurely pace... :-)

Mine isn't an F500/F600, but similar enough. Some of the things I've spent more than a day on:
- Engine mounts
- Wiring/harness, dash
- Chain drive diff mounting, chain adjustability, chain guard
- Shift, clutch & throttle linkage
- Fuel and cooling systems
- Bodywork and suspension changes and a new exhaust system

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russ, i think he meant that he put the engine in the engine bay. No way was the car drivable in one day.

I've done two conversions on Red Devils and they are the same as a KBS/Invader, can't do direct drive. Engine bay is just too short.
Reason for this is that these cars are laydown cars.
I also used the Yamaha R6 engine and the countershaft sprocket is to high up in the transmission and makes for a bad angle for the chain to the axel.
Not saying that that a jackshaft is a bad thing, I didn't see a noticeable difference on the dyno.
Also the Yamaha has proven to be pretty reliable after three races this past summer.

Thanks

Rick