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Jon owes me $10,000 for a deposit he took on a car never delivered. Kinda funny to read this rambling BS. Wish Jon was a good guy who knew how to write a check, but apparently he's spending my money on Jack Daniels at the bar he mentions.Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbaytos
I'd like to hear more about this one!
Been away from SCCA Club racing the last 18 years....looks like nothings changed with Baytos...reason why I stayed away from Van Diemen cars in the past.
Good luck getting your 10k back
GH
That should probably be it's own thread.
In April 2008 Jon Baytos cashed a check of mine for $10,000 as a deposit for an 'all new, turn key, Van Diemen FB race car from Primus Racing" that was ready to be delivered within 2-4 weeks 'just waiting for a sidepod from England'. He and my local guy Mark Abel had concocted some scheme where they claimed to have several of these cars ready for delivery for a total purchase price of $28,000. Baytos cashed the $10,000 deposit check and Abel cashed the $18,000 check for the balance claiming he was about to take delivery of the car for me. In July of 2008 after many missed deadlines, broken promises, and credibility-lacking excuses, boxes of parts which may or may not have contained what was needed to eventually someday build a race car showed up in NJ. Analogous to a contractor who takes $10K to build an addition on a house and 3 months later drops a load of 2x4's in your front yard, this was not acceptable. Abel and Baytos agreed my money should be refunded. After much drama, Abel eventually repaid the $18,000 he had defauded me out of, but 12 months later I am still owed $10,000 deposit refund from Baytos. Repeated documented promises that 'you will be repaid' have gone unfulfilled. Baytos even ended up flipping the boxes of parts to none other than SCCA enterprise for $40K but then went and spent the money, many months later sending me an email 'sorry Tom I screwed up I'll have to figure out another way to pay you' which has never happened. Repeated pleas to Jon Baytos, his brother Brad, Mark Abel, and Sandy Shamlian (who somehow got in the middle of this because he calls himself Jon's friend, had personally vouched for him to me, and has some sort of partnership with Baytos relating to the FB cars) have resulted in no action and no repayment, just a bunch of unfufilled promises. I've bent over backwards to offer every possible opportunity for the parties involved to make good, but to no avail.
Wow. Uncool.
Hey Tom, I feel your pain.Quote:
Originally Posted by stigwhiteCF24
I also got taken by the Baytos' /Primus/Group 4 ponzi scheme they were running on the Rf281 Van Diemen F1000's.
I put a deposit on what was supposed to be a complete new roller kit in Sept 2007 to be delivered within two weeks. I recieved the frame and a box of bits four months later at the end of January 2008. They needed payment in full at that time and Brad said I needed to "trust him" for the rest of the parts. Unfortunately I did and paid them in full. I received the bodywork three months later in April of 08 and the wings and a few more bits in June of 08. I still didn't have springs,shocks, numerous suspension components, drive flanges, proper half shafts, steering components, brake balance bar perts,and quite a few other assorted bits and pieces. After a year and more than a hundred calls and emails it was obvious that if i wanted to finish the car in my lifetime that I would have to get the remaining parts myself. I spent over $4000 additional to fabricate and/or acquire the remaining parts from Elan and Van Diemen to finish the car. In the last nine months Jon and Brad, in their best good-cop-bad-cop finger-pointing routines, have stated verbally and in writing that they wanted to "make it right" by offering me spares from the batch of leftover parts they had but the parts never seem to appear. The spares they were "offering" me were propbably among the batch of parts they may have sold to Enterprises and/or were planning to sell with the black 281 they were advertising a couple of months ago. I havn't heard from them in a couple months now. They don't return calls or emails.
I feel sorry for anyone who does businesss with them or their surrogates on the Firman cars.
Give me a call. It would be interesting to compare notes on this.
Thanks,
Tom
407 898-5550
You're not alone pal.
Tom, the only thing that hurts me worse than my own situation is knowing that others were taken too. And I see Mark Abel crashing the beer party at NJMP SCCA events working the crowd apparently looking for his next victim, just as I suppose the Baytos brothers/Primus Racing/Group 4 Racing are doing elsewhere. I'll call you to compare notes. But, at the end of the day, the fact that the racing community tolerates these bad actors and still spends money with them is beyond belief, in any other industry they'd be yesterday's news. After 20+ years as an SCCA National Driver and weekend warrior, I'm am going to be out of racing altogether thanks to Jon Baytos, Mark Abel, Brad Baytos at Primus since he seems to be involved too, and the whole situation including Sandy putting his word on the line as well. Yet no one, no one involved seems to know how to write a check and make it all right,nothing but excuses, empty promises, and in my case a racing career pretty much ended. And they pawned the worthless obsolete inventory parts off on SCCA Enterprises for a lot of money, which only hurts SCCA members even more. Whoever agreed to that at SCCA Enterprise should be held accountible for bad judgment, I only heard the first name of 'Eric' associated with that part of this debacle. Best, Tom
Gents-
It's not often I feel compelled to jump in on something like this but I feel it's needed. Back in July of 2007 I contacted a person that was listing Brand New RF281 Van Diemen's that were advertised as a FB at a very low price. At the time I did not know it was Baytos, but once I made contact with this person and then became aware it indeed was Baytos "I ran for the Hills". Baytos has a long reputation going back to the 80's for a less than stellar business dealing.
Do yourselves a favor and stay away from this guy....and if any of you are looking at purchasing an RFR F1000 do so with much caution. At all costs make sure that this dude is in no way connected with the dealings. I might add that this in no way is a slight at RFR, I in fact have met Mr Firman and feel he is a good guy to deal with.
Buyer beware.
Gary Hickman
FB #76
This is a pretty hot thread, but for what it's worth...
About a month ago I bought a new VD radiator from "Primus Racing, Miller Dr., St Pete Beach FL" and the invoice seems to be signed by "Brad B" and the radiator was perfect and the price was good.
I called and mildly complained that the bleeder was tapped for a straight thread and I prefer a pipe thread, and the man I spoke to overnighted me a part he thought would fit. It didn't, but i appreciated the effort.
He even offered to send me a pipe tap ($150.00 at McMaster) but I politely declined.
I've also personally had numerous favorable dealings with Brad at Primus. He always seems to be ready to help with a problem. I can't personally vouch for Jon as I've had no direct dealing with him.
Keith Roberts
Hi Gary, and All,
I don't know if there is any truth to these stories or not, but it has nothing to do with me or my involvement with RFR cars.
Nicholas and I deal straight with Ralph Firman and the factory. We are totally independent. We refuse to be involved in any way, shape, or form with middle men that might effect our ability to deal in a direct and forthright manner with customers. To that end we buy our engines from our own supplier, and the same goes with our dry sump and other components. When you buy a car from us you deal with us, and no one else.
I believe all the dealers deal directly with the factory and operate independently.
edited-----
I hope someday to be able to report back that the money owed to me has been repaid, and to be able to do so with positive comments about the integrity and trustworthiness of how this is handled from this point forward. I will be the first to recognize and acknowledge if the parties involved now act and make good, and I hope someday to be able to say that this was simply a problem that was handled poorly for 12 months but then was resolved quickly, effectively, and with priority. Until such a time, however, I'm out $10,000, and I'll leave it at that --- that would frost anyone's shorts and create negative feelings, I don't care who you are. I guess there's a kind of cold comfort in knowing that I'm not alone, and I appreciate the supportive comments I've received. I have nothing but respect and admiration for the good actors in the racing community who do so much for a sport we love and devote so much of our lives to. Tom
Same here. A while back, Brad sent me some parts and said to pay if they worked out, or send them back. I've had a few good transactions with Brad/Primus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Roberts
Brad Baytos has stated that he and Primus were not involved in the aforementioned deals with regard to the FB cars, and that he should not and does not want to be mentioned in discussions relating to the business dealings with his brother Jon. I will take his word on that and respect that request, and indicate that while the deal was represented to me as being from Primus, the two points of contact were Mark Abel and Jon Baytos, neither of whom are owners representing Brad or Primus.
and apologies to Brad for any confusion or lack of clarity.
So what is the story on this? I understood the parts from these FB cars were supposed to be common to the FE car as well. Did Baytos really rip off Enterprises for $40k?Quote:
Originally Posted by stigwhiteCF24
To be fair, I don't know. You're right that it could have crossover value with FE and my words were therefore too strong. I'm just sore that I got all the parts returned to Jon with the clear understanding that he would pay me my deposit back once he received the parts, and I find out later that the stuff was received and sold to Enterprises and 6 months later my $10K has not been repaid. I'll have to be careful not to allow the huge financial loss I have suffered to show through in editorial comments.
I wasn't doubting you, I was just curious as an SCCA member. I really hate that you have lost your money and I hope that publicly calling him out helps you recover something. I remember those cars being advertised and I am surprised it turned out like this.Quote:
Originally Posted by stigwhiteCF24
You can leave my name out of it and your assesment of the quality of my judgement is wrong. ALL of the parts I paid for bolt right on the FE car. The other bits (one tubs worth) are here and our parts Manager, Jerry, has them on a back burner list to see who may want them. We bought goods at a fair value and also prevented them from backdooring into our program...WIN WIN. It was a clean deal and the ending balance sheet is rock solid. Emotions and other issues being what they are...accusing me of bad judgement is something I do not take lightly. Please get your facts next time. Our deal with Jon went exactly as promised, nothing more and nothing less. I have said it before in the FE forum (and I do not venture outside of there often)...but I have literally thousands of references CHECK ONE NEXT TIME! You suggest I be held accountable...I AM...are you?Quote:
Originally Posted by stigwhiteCF24
Erik Skirmants
President and CEO
SCCA Enterprises Inc
What an ugly and unfortunate story. May I just add, however, that I have had long and very positive experience with Brad Baytos and Sandy Shamlian and I'd be sorry to see their reputations suffer for something they weren't part of.
it would seem that the general truth of the matter is that if you've dealt with jon you are likely to come up on the short end of the stick...as my avatar so blatantly points out. it is unfortunate that you invested so much without researching his reputation, because as you can see it's not the best. that being said, and knowing this, i still got involved with him and ultimately got what i deserved.
however, i have to say that all my dealings with brad and sandy have always been good and i find both to be more than fair, and men of their word. it's just unfortunate that their proximity to jon sometimes taints their image.
Worst thing I could have done was raise this issue. I'm out $10,000 for over a year now courtesy of Jon Baytos and Mark Abel. Seeing Jon's posts when I re-joined this forum to research issues related to FB engines and hardware literally knocked the stuffing out of me --- him rambling about spending money in bars on JD when I am owed so much. Yet, now I have to defend myself. Ironic. But I am a 100% honest and genuine person so I will do what's right.
Erik, your comments are fair and I am sorry. What you did not know was that on the backside of the legit deal you closed was a sordid history and broken commitments that cost me and others a lot of money, but you would probably have no way of knowing that so your comments to me are fair and you deserve my apology. To be fair to me, Jon did describe you repeatedly as his 'friend' and told me that you knew he needed to close the deal on the parts in order to pay back myself and one other guy he owed money to, which was the whole basis of me exerting my influence on Mark Abel to get the parts returned to Jon that ultimately were bought by Enterprises. I hope you can find it in your heart to understand where my misperception came from and forgive.
Sandy is a good guy, I know that and appreciate everything he has tried to do to get this resolved, and Brad reached out to me today to convince me of same, so I am grateful.
Yet somehow I'm the guy out $10,000 for a car never delivered on a deal that was completely misrepresented. Everyone's got what they want and yet I'm left holding the bag. I'm done, guys, you can get your backs up all you want on your own situations or offer after the fact 'I coulda told you so' comments, but the fact that I was taken advantage of in this fashion is something that taints the entire racing community which I was proud to be part of for over 20 years.
I'll sign off of apexspeed for good and anyone who wishes to reach me in a constructive helpful fashion may do so by emailing stigwhite at comcast net.
Thomas, I don't see anyone accusing you of anything or making you need to defend your position—on the contrary. It seems as though you have a lot of support and more than a few people who have experienced the same or similar dealings. I think the only people defensive in this issue are those who's names have been brought into the deal inaccurately or unfairly.
This is a good thing for you to have brought to light. Maybe many people know about the history, but from my perspective, very few have ever spoken about it. Bringing it to the open forum only helps everyone in the future.
I sincerely hope that something can be done to get your money returned to you promptly. It would sure be a waste to lose any member of this community over something like this. We need all the formula cars that we can get out there racing for bowling trophies.
And just remember, sunlight is the best disinfectant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith Roberts
I have spent thousands in my dealings with Brad, and I must report all have been quite pleasing. And on a couple of occasions, he has offered to overnight items to me at the track at his expense. I have no idea why this has been allowed to happen, and I am not owed an explanation, but Brad has played a prominent roll in getting my VD in the track several times.Quote:
Originally Posted by RussMcB
So here's the deal: you're at the correct venue to get it resolved. It would be my surmise 90% of all open wheel SCCA drivers, CEs, owners, merchants et al spend a portion of their day. If there were untruthful and less than honest intentions, I should think Primus may very well be isolated (and with their inventory.) My bet is you will receive what you agreed on or your money straight away.
But my cup is always half full. I'll pray the answer is reasonable, and that it is resolved to you satisfaction.
Iverson
Brad Baytos and Primus have been a sponsor of Formula Pro Racing for 2 years and have been very generous in their support. I have also bought thousands of dollars worth of parts , as many of other FPR members have done, without incident. Brad has always been helpful, fair and honest. His prices are the best and he regularly send things for free because we are good customers.
It seems while 2 people may be related they are not the same when it comes to business dealings and maintaining good reputations.
I must add my defense of Brad at Primus .
Just today he pulled his rig over on the hwy on his way to Road America and called me back so he could take my phone order for a tiny part I needed . He said he would have it made for me if it was not in stock and offered to ship next day free if I had to wait for it .
Many years of dealings with him have never disappointed me . He is a stand up guy . Good service and fair prices .
I feel the pain of the folks above with a bad experience with others but must believe that Brad is not the problem .
Good luck with healing those troubles mentioned above .
Dear Tom.
No lingering issues whatsoever with me, I would have before, and certainly now, be happy to shake your hand and buy you a beverage. To be honest I have chosen, right or wrong, to throw out stronger defenses when something is off or misquoted regarding Enterprises or myself. It seems that when you reply too kindly people can take that as there is some truth to whatever the issue may be or at least a grey area. When you are direct, professional, and hopefully fair as well, the readers of the post get a more correct perception. Your issue would naturally create the kind of empassioned plea and desire for resolution you are expressing. My sincere hope that we see you ON track at some future time.
I will briefly address the brothers Baytos as well. Brad has been covered by many and my / our dealings with him before and after he worked with Elan have been as good as others have commented. My personal (2, 1 was a new car purchase in 1994) and single Enterprises business dealing with Jon have gone perfectly as well. Just my true data point.
Best Regards,
Erik
In my 10+ years of racing Van Diemen's, Brad and Sandy have always been completely up front and some of, if not, the best in the business to work with. Their getting mixed into this conversation doesn't seem appropriate. I've been part of multiple purchases of cars and equiptment from Jon as well as being part of a racing series run by Jon and all of those experiences were all good as well. It sounds to me like Jon has some answering to do but, he's a big boy and can handle that himself. I just hate to see good guys dragged into this conversation who don't seem to belong there.
I weighed heavily on whether or not I should respond to this thread. I obviously don't know about the deals cited here. My personal experience with Jon Baytos is different. After winning the Pro FF Championship in Canada I was looking to move up the open wheel ladder. I looked at and tested a number of different series. At the time Jon was working to make the FF2000 series more cost effective by introducing the Zetec package (which did lower budgets for anyone in the series). I felt that from a competition and driver development standpoint, FF2000 was the way to go. Jon was impressed with what I accomplished in Canada and wanted me in his series. He was able to provide real sponsorship that saved considerable cash. I got to compete in the series for two years and am a much better driver for it today. People have written checks for me to drive their cars which is pretty special. I'm not sure I would have gotten to this level without Jon's support. I am certainly not done and continue to work hard to be a full time professional in the sports car ranks but I know Jon (and Brad) helped me get to where I am. Again I am only one voice and one experience, I wasn't involved with this particular issue that started this thread and I am not saying that Jon did or did not keep someone's money, but I am saying that there are two sides to everything that the Baytos brothers have not been all bad for the sport.
Sounds like Brad needs to give Jon a swift kick in the ass. Relatives in the same business with, apparently, very different business practices. Confusion and association can elevate ones' reputation while bringing down the others--neither one of them deservedly.
Just because they are related and in the same industry doesn't mean they have the same ethics (nature or nurture). I am certain there are three sides to every story. Personally, I don't care if company X did right for 100 people, if they screwed someone, I don't want to do business with them.
Ponzi schemes do right for many....
Robbing Peter to pay Paul. Paul's always happy, it's Peter that is getting screwed.
Thanks for the heads up.
Look guys, I appreciate and respect all the comments, the good and the bad. I am very, very sorry I started this thread and regret doing it. It pains me to see it play out in a public forum.
I AM owed $10,000 deposit refund on a car not delivered, the parties who owe (Jon Baytos and Mark Abel) agree that I am owed it, yet it is outstanding now for over a year in Mark's case and 6 months in Jon's. So many promises ('next week ...') have been broken, excuses provided, convulted explanations and stories offered, that I have little reason to believe I'll ever see the money.
Evidently Brad and Sandy have been trying to influence and get action behind the scenes to no avail, and I greatly appreciate their effort and hope someday to thank them personally.
The whole thing is a personally embarrassing and devastating situation for me, because it started with me --- as a person who gives everyone the benefit of the doubt, the benefit of my friendship, the benefit of my trust --- accepting the word of a 'friend' in Mark who stopped by my house one day Spring 2008 all excited about the aforementioned car that he could get for me from his 'friend' Jon in Florida. Whatever representations about who else was involved or companies behind it or anything said at that time in the context of making it all sound legit were probably as unreal as the deal itself turned out to be.
The point is that I wish I could delete the whole thread, started because it upset me to see Jon posting about rules and drinking JD at a local bar when I am sitting here cheated out of $10,000 with multiple promises to make good unfulfilled.
But ultimately it is a matter that is painful enough in private and almost unbearable in public, so hopefully someday I can report that the money has been repaid but until then I hope you all can just leave it alone --- I'm genuinely glad to hear folks are making money driving race cars thanks to Jon, congrat's, seriously, but please respect that my experience is quite the opposite at this moment --- and I really regret starting this here and then having to ride a wave of good and bad that has followed which ultimately doesn't get me any closer to being made whole.
Humbly, Tom
I AM owed $10,000 deposit refund on a car not delivered, the parties who owe (Jon Baytos and Mark Abel) agree that I am owed it, yet it is outstanding now for over a year in Mark's case and 6 months in Jon's. So many promises ('next week ...') have been broken, excuses provided, convulted explanations and stories offered, that I have little reason to believe I'll ever see the money.
Tom,
Stop being so "humble." According to what I have read here, it appears you have done all you can personally to resolve this peacefully. The ball is in your court. Public disclosure is one tool. There are others you may have to resort to. Assuming you have your documentation ducks in a row, look at your options and go get your money.
Tom;
I encourage you to seek an attorney immediately to go up their fannies with a microscope looking for every dime they have. Also, I believe there exists a dollar amount separating petty and felonious criminal charges. Theft by fraud for this amount of money is highly discouraged by the authorities.
Jon and Mark;
Temptation resisted is the true test of character. Quite candidly, your reputations are shot and it is my surmise it will be tough to recover, if at all possible. Now it's up to you two, but you might want to give this whole thing some thought, and do what is right.
I look foreword to visiting with you both off line: Rick.Iverson@aa.mnf.w-iraq.usmc.mil.
Iverson
Jon Baytos <jonbaytos@yahoo.com>
04/08/2009 12:47 PM
To
Thomas G Smith <ThomasSmith@rohmhaas.com>
cc
Subject
money
Tom,sorry to go missing but it seems that lifes little trauma's will not go away. The money is gone and I will not bother you with why but that is the fact.
However it will slow me in making you whole, it does not mean that I will not follow through.
It will take abot 6 weeks but my hope is to send 2,500 in 4 installments. At the moment it looks as though this can start in 2weeks. Sorry JB
Jon Baytos
727-289-7005 office
727-289-7271 fax
727-744-5255 mobile
727-368-4368 home
www.beyer-racing.com
www.capemotorsports.com
www.primusracingparts.com
At this point , if it were me , I would pursue LEGAL AND CRIMINAL charges against this guy!!
Primus has parts, lots of parts. You should try to barter for current suspension and body work. Then sell it on this forum. If you have a good deal on any of those parts...they will go quick and you will get your money back.
Ask for 2 sets of Zetec wheels...I will buy both from you right now for $2500!