Mojave Gold

1600 Uprated Pinto core engine for sale; $700 plus shipping from Ridgecrest, Ca. 93555. found this example of Mojave Gold before Xmas in a salvage yard I hadn't been in for several years. the transmission and bellhousing were left at the yard given the calling here at ApexSpeed. like everyone who has ever purchased an engine at a salvage yard, I was told it was running when it was pulled from the car........... will remove as much or as little as you want to minimize shipping.

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

SOLD !!

if ApexSpeed is too hard or California too far, check with any of your local Bobcat dealers or large Bobcat users (contractors). I've had success rescuing used 711M blocks that started life in industrial applications for their true calling in FF!

there is NOT a 711M block shortage as the complete fresh core above illustrates. good used engines/blocks are available here in the west and just like paint jobs at Earl Schrieb's they too no longer cost $29.95!!

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

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Originally Posted by Art Smith

there is NOT a 711M block shortage as the complete fresh core above illustrates. good used engines/blocks are available here in the west and just like paint jobs at Earl Schrieb's they too no longer cost $29.95!!

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i'm pretty sure shlogging through junkyards to find the occasional diamond in the rough that isn't full of rain water or cracked or been dropped from a hoist really counts as a solution to parts shortages.

FYI i recently bought a 4.6 ford for my old beater pickup from a junkyard. I ended up at 3 different yards before I found a engine that was remotely acceptable. I asked at all 3 if they had 2.0 pinto or 1.6 kents. All the yards pretty much said they havn't seen one since the maybe the 80s.

That being said, it's cool that you were able to find one that was in decent shape and will hopefully makes it's way to an FF.

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Originally Posted by HazelNut

i'm pretty sure shlogging through junkyards to find the occasional diamond in the rough that isn't full of rain water or cracked or been dropped from a hoist really counts as a solution to parts shortages.

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In about 30 weeks you won't have to shlog anymore. You will make a call to Ford motorsport and have them send you a shinny new fully machined, 50% stronger, beefed up center main/oil galley Kent block for a little more money than the " Mojave Gold" was listed for. Now If you think that's too pricey,....The brand new block will cost (I was told)roughly the same amount of money as one (1) set of R35's or 160's mounted and balanced! Did I mention that the block will also be American made.

Now any Mojave Gold you find out there, you can smoke it and relax a little!

[quote=stonebridge20;230437]

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In about 30 weeks you won't have to shlog anymore. You will make a call to Ford motorsport and have them send you a shinny new fully machined, 50% stronger, beefed up center main/oil galley Kent block for a little more money than the " Mojave Gold" was listed for. Now If you think that's too pricey,....The brand new block will cost (I was told)roughly the same amount of money as one (1) set of R35's or 160's mounted and balanced! Did I mention that the block will also be American made.

Now any Mojave Gold you find out there, you can smoke it and relax a little!

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cool! glad to hear ford is stepping up on this. However, why isn't anyone up in arms over it being 50% stronger? If it's really that much better won't it become the new "must have" and relegate all of the original blocks to obscurity? I'm not saying that it's not good that it's stronger I'm just surprised that nobody is ranting.

HazelNut-

what "parts shortage" are you referring to?? IF there is a real parts shortage (real buyers wanting to buy real parts), how is it I received not one reply at ApexSpeed in over a year for a complete core engine from the California desert which is far kinder to engines than the snow, ice, salt, rain, and humidity of the east coast and mid-west:

used core block and main caps
used core crank known to have a properly machined input shaft well
used set of core 2737E rods
used front and rear covers
used crank and cam sprockets
used cam thrust plate
used core cast iron head
used core rocker shaft assembly
used set of core push rods
used core intake manifold

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

ps: it's my opinion that block strength is NOT a performance enhancing characteristic for FF's since the existing Kent population has proven beyond any rational doubt that it's strong enough for full stressed applications. block strength is a service life characteristic for the industrial market.........................

Some people can't be satisfied. They complain if the block isn't strong enough, or if it's stronger. If you are building a new block, why not improve it. After 40 + years of usage weaknesses have been identified. New parts should be made better, if you can, like the forged pistons, the aluminium head, the cast steel crank, etc. The block is also used for many other higher hp uses.

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[quote=HazelNut;230446]

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Originally Posted by stonebridge20

cool! glad to hear ford is stepping up on this.

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As an FYI. Ford and Jay Ivey started this project well before Honda made anything public with their Fit proposal. The new Kent block is not just a response to the Honda proposal.

Thank you again Jay!

Mike,

I've heard enough political promises! When is Ford going to officially announce what you have stated? When can a racer pick up the phone and place the order? When will the new block be delivered? Do the casting molds even exist?

Art, just because you managed to find a block, don't expect us who have called yards, trudged through yards, placed ads on the net, etc., to believe that finding a block is a non-existent problem...it just ain't true!

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

I think some people are losing sight of the bigger issue here. Even IF there were no shortages of blocks and no shortages of other parts for the Kent and even IF Ford agrees to produce new blocks, we are still faced with the problem of the high costs associated with turning a 40 year old engine originally intended for 4,000 RPM and 60 hp, into a racing engine capable of turning 7,000 RPM and making 115 hp.

You can "dig up" all the new Kent blocks you want or you can manufacture as many new ones as you want, but it will STILL cost $10,000 to purchase a new engine from an engine builder. You want a National level engine with an aluminum head, add on another $3,000.

How do we know this is true and that new blocks wont solve anything? Just look at the costs of a "freshening" or a re-build of an existing engine. They are astronomical.

Sure, some people with talent like Art can build and re-build their own engines and it may not cost them $10,000 to do so, but most of us cant build our own engines and are dependent on having others do it for us.

A modern engine designed to produce the same power out of the box as the Kent eliminates the need for all of the tricks needed to make a Kent racing engine and would allow those who cant build their own to go to Honda (or Ford) and buy a crate engine that needs no massaging.

My 2 cents.

Tom

Ha. Good luck with that. As I posted in another thread, Ford Racing is notoriously slow in bringing new engine blocks to market, taking YEARS after the first announcement to actually have parts available for purchase in warehouses. I don't doubt there is a conceptual agreement to produce the Kent block, just don't get all excited about the idea that you will have one next year.

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Originally Posted by Tom Valet

Sure, some people with talent like Art can build and re-build their own engines and it may not cost them $10,000 to do so, but most of us cant build our own engines and are dependent on having others do it for us.

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Tom-

while I appreciate your kind words, Arnie and his staff at Loyning's Engine Service have built all my engines (1600 Uprated Kents and 2-liter Pinto). I'm a retired Systems Engineer by trade, not a National engine builder. that said, I will admit to supplying cores, any number of unusual parts, and enough requests for strange configurations and tolerances to turn an engine builder's hair white. it's my opinion there is no one better in the business at building 1600 Uprated Kents to make reliable usable power; the list of FF National Champions that won using Loyning engines is truly impressive!!

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but I agree with what Tom wrote - yes, there is an issue finding parts, but the REAL reason it's costing so much is that these engines weren't meant to do what we're doing to them.

It's the same in FV - a 40+ year old design, originally producing 40hp at 4500rpm..now closing in on 60hp at 6700rpm. It equals a short lifespan for both the Pinto and the VW engines.

Although my dad once told me "If you want to race cars, and you want to go fast, open your wallet... or be really talented."

Unless this junkyard supply -- or new stuff from Ford -- creates a situation where engine builders are willing to supply freshly built engines (no exchange) producing Fit-like power for $3,750 then it's not changing anything.

Even at that number, the Kent would cost three times as much per hour to run. But it would be a step in the right direction.

Steve

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Originally Posted by SteveLevin

Unless this junkyard supply -- or new stuff from Ford -- creates a situation where engine builders are willing to supply freshly built engines (no exchange) producing Fit-like power for $3,750 then it's not changing anything.

Steve

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Steve, Is $3,750 a quoted price on a new Fit engine from an engine builder or is it a quoted price on a rebuild for a Fit engine?

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Originally Posted by Art Smith

Tom-

while I appreciate your kind words, Arnie and his staff at Loyning's Engine Service have built all my engines (1600 Uprated Kents and 2-liter Pinto). I'm a retired Systems Engineer by trade, not a National engine builder. that said, I will admit to supplying cores, any number of unusual parts, and enough requests for strange configurations and tolerances to turn an engine builder's hair white. it's my opinion there is no one better in the business at building 1600 Uprated Kents to make reliable usable power; the list of FF National Champions that won using Loyning engines is truly impressive!!

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

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Absolutely.

Steve, how do you know how much per hour it's going to cost to run a FIT engine? It is also an engine that was never designed to be a race engine and see the sustained high revs and missed shifts that entails.

Would someone tell me if the Fit engine is chain or belt drive for the overhead cams. What is the end result, if for some reason the drive system fails; do the valves hit the pistons. How long will the engine perform before valve float needs to be addressed? I know the best way to treat the Kent engine, I just do not have a clue about the Fit, plus who do you trust to give real experience information?

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Originally Posted by Clyde

Would someone tell me if the Fit engine is chain or belt drive for the overhead cams. What is the end result, if for some reason the drive system fails; do the valves hit the pistons. How long will the engine perform before valve float needs to be addressed? I know the best way to treat the Kent engine, I just do not have a clue about the Fit, plus who do you trust to give real experience information?

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After quite a long list of questions posed to HPD engineers over the past few weeks, they have said it is a chain over belt driven engine specifically for the maintenance reduction and it is not an interference engine.

The real reason, as far as I'm concerned, that a national level kent engine costs the proverbial $10K has nothing to do with ripping 115 hp and 6800 rpm from it, it's the blueprinting and hand massaging of every part that goes into it to coax the last three HP out that turns it from a nice running piece into a front row piece. I can build 140 hp Kents all day in my backyard for way under $5k, it's actually pretty easy now. But I'm not even going to try to build a competitive FFord engine. The FIT advantage is that there is no skill involved, no hand fettling, secret black magic, laying on of hands and mumbling the secret dyno incantation skill...

When I bought my engine, David told me that when it was on his dyno, it took three different intakes and two different carbs or some similar thing before it made his acceptable level of HP. The FIT comes with plus or minus whatever percent guaranteed, probably.

Good or bad? I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I don't know. Watershed change in the fundamental nature of the sport? You betcha...

Brian

Roland, Mike:

How do you know that the cost for a Fit rebuild or operating hours is substantially different than that for a zetec in FC? What are the facts that substantiate your claim that it will be much more expensive?

The facts I have on Zetec engines is that pro & SCCA teams run them beyond 8000 miles and 'rebuilds' (long block core replacements) as quoted by an engine builder who had pintos, kents & zetecs on the front rows of the runoffs for FC & FF is in the $4-4.2k range which includes the core engine in the $3k range.

While the Fit is not a zetec, it is a valid baseline comparison to start from. The FC Zetec engine rules are _very_ similar to the fit rules proposal, where blueprinting is not 'within the spirit of the class' but it is otherwise unsealed, yet no one is going beyond the $4k core replacement rebuilds to blueprint them.

The Fit, while 38mm shorter than a Kent and is an all ally block is within a 10% all up weight of a cast iron block & ally head kent. Do you think they may have designed it for the long haul? All that weight in an engine from this day and age has to be earning its MPG hit and is likely there for long term durability & strength.

Tell me why the fit won't be like a zetec. I already know why the Miata is not like a zetec, and its not for modern engineering reasons.

Tim

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Originally Posted by Roland V. Johnson

It is also an engine that was never designed to be a race engine and see the sustained high revs and missed shifts that entails.

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Yes, because thats exactly what they were worrying about when they designed this POS:

http://images.businessweek.com/ss/07...age/3pinto.jpg

Ok, I'll stop now. You guys are just too easy.

The funny thing is with all the pi$$ing and moaning from both "sides", the Kent engine is still cheaper to maintain on a mile per dollar cost than going to the local indoor Kart track!

BTW: Tim. My 76 Pinto was sinus infection green with white interior. It had a V6 and would do wicked brake stands in reverse!

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Originally Posted by stonebridge20

Steve, Is $3,750 a quoted price on a new Fit engine from an engine builder or is it a quoted price on a rebuild for a Fit engine?

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Honda says they will sell engines for $2,500 (with no exchange) and that it will last twice as long as a Kent.

So in a given set of engines, starting fresh, it would cost 1 $2,500 Honda engine, or two $3,750 Kents (assuming that such a thing exists)

2 x $3,750 = $7,500 -- or three times the Fit's $2,500 cost.

Assuming, of course, that I can buy a Kent for $3,750.

Steve

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Originally Posted by stonebridge20

BTW: Tim. My 76 Pinto was sinus infection green with white interior. It had a V6 and would do wicked break stands in reverse!

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My '73 was faded baby blue and after several years of trusty service running back and forth from St CLoud to Valdosta Ga, it got an upgrade of a 351 W.

John

After totaling my orange Fiesta on a parking meter (yes, and yes,: girl and alcohol)

I owned a pinto for two days, couldn't stand it, and took it back to the dealer, and got a yellow fiesta. (why did fiestas only come in dayglo colors?)

That Kent was
Lots o fun w/ a FF head, and 4:1 exhaust,
short throw shifter, by cutting off 6" of the handle, w/ a hurst knob,
and a shift light tach set at 6600

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Originally Posted by stonebridge20

BTW: Tim. My 76 Pinto was sinus infection green with white interior. It had a V6 and would do wicked brake stands in reverse!

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Isn't that the same green as your DB6 Mike? Or is it Fuscia? Oh, thats right, its BOTH! :) :) Just bustin your chops Mike...

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Originally Posted by TimW

Isn't that the same green as your DB6 Mike? Or is it Fuscia? Oh, thats right, its BOTH! :) :) Just bustin your chops Mike...

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Your just jealous because my paint job gets all the chicks!