If for example I had an RF91 roller, is my only option to go with a pinto motor or could I fit a zetec or even duratec in there? Is there even a bellhousing available for such an option (I assume things dont line up)? tranny is ld200
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If for example I had an RF91 roller, is my only option to go with a pinto motor or could I fit a zetec or even duratec in there? Is there even a bellhousing available for such an option (I assume things dont line up)? tranny is ld200
I don't know if a zetec or duratec will fit a rf91's engine bay without modifying the frame, but the zetec has the same bellhousing design as the pinto, so should bolt right up to an ld200. The duratec/mzr is different, so will require a custom adapter plate (and probably input shaft). Stan
Irrelevant if you are going for FF. With the other motor, you would be FS.Quote:
Originally Posted by ffrgtm
For FC, more knowledge can be found about this topic in that section of this forum.
That said, anything is possible with enough time, skill and MONEY!!
im talking about physical adaptability to the tranny in the space provided in the vd. Not worried about class legality.
awesome thanks stan
Ben, if you are not concerned about class legality, there are a couple of easy and much cheaper alternatives to swapping in a zetec. The pinto will readily make 200+ hp with some simple upgrades.Quote:
Originally Posted by ffrgtm
Here are several stages above an FC-legal 142-144 hp motor):
Stage I (160 hp): FC-legal engine build, but use the Isky 440 cam. This cam change alone will really wake up a pinto. Parts cost: about $160.
Stage II (175 hp): FC-legal short-block with shaved head to get down to about 45cc chambers. Add Isky 465 cam and Weber 38/38 carb. Parts cost: ~$100 to shave head; $160 for cam, $325 for carb.
Stage III (200+ hp): Racer Walsh long-rod and 12:1 piston kit (parts $1500). Isky 465 cam (or 505 cam w/oversized valves). Weber 40 DCOE or 45 DCOE sidedraughts (cost varies if used or new). Total parts cost will run $2000 - $3000.
Add a light flywheel and a 5.5" single plate clutch for even more fun... :ha:
Still only a quarter of the price of a zetec swap and bolts right in. :thumbsup:
Cheers! Stan
This is the what a lot of the cars that come over to NZ get converted to, its a basic Monoposto Club spec from the UK, but gives you so much more power in these cars, it transforms them, to the point where they will give a FA car a run for it money, and in the hands of a good driver seeit off, there is another carb option, this is twin IDF's, this enables twin carbs to be fitted in the body line, and between bars on some frames, also chane to 10's and 8's in rim width. over here (NZ) they will run with F5000 cars and can be mid field. A couple of these cars that have come in from the UK have had 5 speed Mk 8/9's but apart from the standing starts they do here, there does'nt appear to be much advantage after that. Cars like these are IMHO ideal for the average guy to maintain, very strong space frame chassis, and a engine that while not world beating in the power stakes, once modified are easy to work and repair, so running cost against a T/C toyota or BDA and a mono chassis, look like chicken feed. so more power to the Pinto.
Roger
Do you really think it would be cheaper to stay with a pinto? I am used to efi and thats a definite advantage for me. The car is designed for a 1600 pinto so are you guys talking about a 1.6 when you say "base fc" engine (I assume your talking about 2.0)? Along those same lines are we talking about a 1.6 (1.8) or 2.0 zetec that has the same bellhousing design as the 1600 pinto? Where are some places I could look at getting a pinto or zetec engine from, and the supporting (power) parts?
ps ill have a rolling chassis soon (if all goes according to plan) that ill initially be using for autox, hence my questions and indifference to class legality.
Early in my racing career (autocrossing, not road racing yet), I bought a Formula Ford with a mildly prepped 1600cc engine (head work, dual side draft carbs). I raced it for a few years. It had wide, sticky tires. It was very fast, fun & reliable. That would be the route I would recommend.
That could be a LOT of fun, especially if is durable. You'd have to be careful of the gearbox, though, as the Mk 9 starts to show problems above 175 hp or so, and the LD-200 is even more sensitive.
Larry Oliver
International Racing Products
I'm a little embarrassed to say (showing my age), that the FF I autocrossed did have an occasional problem with the rubber halfshaft doughnut fingers coming off the standing start line. It didn't take long to adjust my starting procedure to save parts. :-).
It was a blast to drive. Both nimble and fast.
Ben, I owe you an apology. After reading your initial post, I thought you were talking about an FC roller, but just noticed you are asking about an FF roller. Forget everything I wrote above, as I am not at all confident you chassis can physically accept a pinto or zetec engine.Quote:
Originally Posted by ffrgtm
If your rf91 is indeed a FF chassis, the engine bay may be (probably is!) too short by several inches to accept either of those engines. Also, the engine that came in your car would not have been a pinto 1600, but rather a Kent 1600, which is a totally different engine (and much shorter than either pinto!). If that is the case, you still have engine choices, but they do not include either the pinto or the zetec.
As Russ mentions, the Kent 1600 can make lots more power than one sees in FF. Bump the compression add a bigger cam and the Weber 38/38, and you can rival a FC-legal pinto. Add sidedrafts or downdrafts and you can get one up to about 170 hp...all within the stock engine bay, and it all bolts right up.
The Kent can also be upgraded to about 240 hp with a Cosworth BDD kit, but that's a high-dollar option.
Much cheaper than the Cosworth is the VW SOHC engine family. Any of them, from the early 1600s to the first generation GTI 1800s to the newest 2.0 L will fit your engine bay (they are the same length and width as the Kent 1600). They will require an adapter plate, but since this is a common swap (it's what I run in my FF chassis), the technology is well known and parts are available, if not exactly dirt cheap.
Your cheapest route BY FAR is to buy a complete Kent formula ford engine to get started. Once you have the car running and autoXing, you'll be free to play with bigger cams, compression, EFI, etc. ANY option other than the Kent is going to cost a lot more money up front.
Hope this is helping... :D
Stan
Just for clarification; pinto 1600 is a kent 1600.
Any size zetec will bolt to your gearbox but I have no idea if they will fit in the engine bay.
1600 upgrades are very easy to come by. I think that would be the easiest route to take.
Fred
To further muddy the Pinto/Kent waters... :D
Ford Pinto Engine - Wikipedia
Ford Kent Engine - Wikipedia
It appears Ford muddied the waters decades ago by using the same name (Pinto) for two completely different engine families. The bottom line is that the 1600cc version of the OHC 2-liter Pinto used in FC is NOT the same engine as the earlier English Ford pushrod engine of the same name. Don't confuse the two. ;)
Stan
FF UK ran a 1800 Zetec motor from 93 until 04 or 05 maybe. That motor should bolt up to the trans, but may not fit in the frame/bodywork without some modification. I know the intake is larger, so some bodywork tweaks would be necessary. I'm not even sure if that motor was ever put into any North America cars (available in junkyards). I don't know the power output specifics, I'm sure a call to a UK engine builder could help you out with that option.
Wow, thanks for all the help everybody.
So just to clarify: I should be looking for a kent 1600 engine correct?
Are there any north american dealers that any of you could recommend? Online dealers so I could look through some parts just for fun?
Any idea where I can get a non-ff legal or even ff-legal engine in north america? Or even anyone that would sell me the parts to do it myself?
From,
Ben
If you have decided to stay with the Kent FF engine your best bet is to watch for one for sale in the FF "For Sale" section of this Forum. Or, put an ad in the FF "Wanted" section.
The other option would be to call Ivey, Quicksilver, Cricket Farms, Loyning or one of the other engine builders to see if they have one.
If you find a long block/short block most of the engine builders sell prep'd internal parts or you can shop at BAT:
http://www.batinc.net/main.htm
Notice FF 1600 and 2000 catagory in the left hand column.
P.S.
Watch the Forum closely. It's the winter months and stuff comes up for sale often.
I recall seeing a couple of FF legal blocks only for sale on here not long ago. If you have the budget and great engine skills you could build up a legal motor. If not, send to a builder. A long block or complete engine would save big bucks.
Also watch E-bay. Amazingly people do sell FF engine stuff on there too as opposed to here on Apexspeed.
Ben,
Ironically, a legal FF engine is not that potent, a little fragile and very expensive to build professionally. Because of class restrictions, stock parts are mandatory (where improved parts could add more power and reliability) and those last few hp cost thousands (when more could be achieved by say, a better cam, for hundreds).
Also engine builders will have major parts such as engine blocks and heads that are "junk" because they are outside legal tolerances. Again they would be ideal for a non legal FF motor.
What I am trying to say is that for much less than the cost of a legal FF motor. You could bolt in a stonking overbored and uprated Kent unit.
All the previous advice about putting that extra power through standard running gear applies. Also you are limiting the venues in which you can run the car. If and when you sell it, it may be tough to recoup all of your investment, but that may be true even with a legal motor.
Try David Clubine at Britain West Motors (519-756-1610) He builds an excellent FF motor and also would certainly have a wealth of spares to build a hot Kent motor if you go that route. You will also take advantage our our Canadian Dollar that has gone limp again!
Tony
For a great tutorial on things that can be doen with all the common ford-based racing engines go to the Burton web site: www.burtonpower.com In the UK of course!
Also try Dave Bean in California. I'm pretty sure he has a website.
You might also search Lotus 7 upgrades.
Find a Ford Fiesta engine.