Now that we know the comp board listens.why not?
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Now that we know the comp board listens.why not?
[size=1]While my horse is in the FF race, do it. And set a (good) precedent that it can be done well elsewhere. But pick a tire that you can actually race on, not one you just hold on for dear life. Even in its heyday, CART was a spec tire class and was better for it. 7 sets allowed, one or two compounds each weekend, and the number of the option set was limited further. Everyone had the same hand of cards tire wise. In SCCA, the tough part will be appeasing the guys who want to race hard & at the front versus the guys who want want tire longevity. So, have two tire options which are not vastly different in performance but the slower one compromises its performance for durability. The guys who choose not the spend like they are up front can still be in the game but admittedly behind without buying tires each session, where the guys who do can have a good tire to race on. An no mixing of options, you can't balance your car by going soft in the front and harder in the rear. Don't make the options essentially the same, as that just costs more as you have to have both on hand and determine which one may be subtly better on any given day or at any given track. In the Ford world, the GY160 vs 175 would seem to have good durability differentiation, but its not clear if there is enough performance differentiation.[/size]
Ask EYE what he thinks—just don’t wear anything FLAMMABLE… :D
JB,
So let's stop arguing about Jeremy and start arguing over spec tires instead right? :)
Nobody will ever agree on this one, ala Zetec/Pinto discussion. Then again, we only need 5 or so of the most politically savy fc guys to change things right?
I'm for it if it can be done in a way that actually reduces tire budgets.
Rob Poma
Rob,Jeremy Who?I'm not going to argrue with anyone.The fact is that all of us who should have known better did'nt.So maybe it is a perfect time to visit the tire issue since it seems some folks with some pretty big opinions got it all wrong!So just maybe that are now ready to do as they say what's best for the class.Who know's they might be wrong about the tire issue.
Do not even go there.
If you wanna race spec cars with spec tires, there is a class called FSCCA.
Here is a start,put the package out for bid.The winner agrees to follow these guidelines.
1] they pass out checks in all divisions to all that make the runoffs.
2] they pass out checks to all regional's top 3 [cfc]
3] you are only allowed 6 tires per race event
4] you are only allowed 3 sets for the runoffs
5] they award product to the top 3 at the runoffs
Steve,what is your current chassis?
Checks Jon? You mean there's money to be made here running spec tires? Count me in!!!!
Actually I'm currently looking at running Hankook tires on my FC (even though the front tires aren't exactly right for FC) because of their contingency award program (600 for win, 400 for 2nd, 200 for 3rd). Need at least 4 suckers to come out and race me in the regionals or nationals. In this region that might be a stretch though...
I heard Les Phillips ran them at Fontana earlier this year with so-so effect (really not suited for speedway because the fronts are sized for Zetec). But I might just try and see if they'll work on a road course.
tiga SF 85
and
Citation 90SF
so steve i would assume that you run cfc? what do you think you spend on tires for a season of racing?
HELL NO. Having fought the spec tires in CF and now open tires in FF, there is very little cost difference. Despite what others may say, a new set is needed to be at the front each weekend and stickers are still faster then scuffs. THe softer the compound the more the difference.
Checks? never going to happen. THey currently award product which is basically the same.
John
John do you race in FC or cfc Checks, Never happen? It already has.
I don't think a spec tire is intended so save substantial costs for the guys who will spend whatever it takes. What it will do is bring the guys running 4th through 8th closer to the pointy end of the grid. Not further up it, but closer to it. Without having to spend with those guys. That increases the fields, when the guy in 12th believes he has a chance at a good finish instead choosing with his checkbook exactly where he'll finish before the race starts. There is parity in the engines essentially. The only other substantial contributor to lap time in a formula car is the tires. Why is there so much angst against one but not the other?Quote:
Originally Posted by John Robinson II
Having experienced first hand both open and spec tire professional series, I'm amazed the NFW responses with little justification of why not, in this thread or previous threads, except to say how poorly it was done previously. Don't discount the concept if the execution sucks. Rethink the execution. Or complain and justfiy the statement that SCCA competitors and SCCA as a sanctioning body deserve each other...as that view is prevelant in most all pro paddocks.
I spend the cost of 2 sets of Hoosier 35's a season on tires.
And like was stated several times by others, a spec tire will still allow those who spend whatever it takes to run up front. They will just buy more sets of them.
Plhilosophically, I am opposed to a spec tire in anything but a true spec class (SRF, FSCCA et al) .
The spec tire rule in CFF is on a division by division basis.
FC is supposed to be a relatively open class.
Jon:
First: Why?
After that: What's out to bid? Someone "looking out for us" again?
FYI: FC RF94, FF RF85 I've run GY 250's and GY175's on both. I put a farily silly number of cycles on them. How much I spend on tires is not for public display.
Tim: I'm still waiting for someone in the US to show where a spec tire rule increased grids. CalClub did it and it didn't do a thing. I think grids INCREASED after they ditched the spec tire requirement. IMHO the largest contributor to lap times is Seat Time.
Should this ever be put to the members, my vote is NFW as well.
You're confusing problems in concept with problems in execution. Wasn't the tire chosen by CalClub a goodyear 430 and the equivalent Hoosier rock? A lowest common denominator solution just cuts everyone off at the knees. Choose a good tire that people want to race on which brings them within an order of magnitude of how fast the free spenders go, people will race. The value of FF racing to me is that it is a true racing car with a true racing tire. I'd rather slide around in a Miata than handcuff a Ford from doing what its designed to do by riding on rocks (american made fords, anyhow).Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Mercurio
Greg,Why, An open tire is like most lawsuits, only the attorneys win.In this case it's the tire co's.As a group you might be surprised at what you can pull down.It will take one very costly varible out of the mix.An open tire rule does not have any benifit other than spending more money.It will not make you a better driver.It will simplfy our class to those that might wish to enter.It has built grids, or at the very least sustained them.I would like to see a class that has been spec go open.What if you won your division Regionally and you received let's say 1500.00.+ a set of new boots.Just because Cal Club did it and failed means nothing.Maybe it was not done correctly,who knows.The tire that the pro series used in 2000 went for approx400 miles with no varience from start to finish you only took it off when the cords came up.Maybe Cal club had it wrong.The formula did not grow from the popularity of an open tire it grew because there was a solid batch of PRO-series [4] at one time that used a spec tire.And they made some dosh from the fact.I appreciate your stance, and the the fact that you have some input, it is valued, either positive or neg but please don't be offended if I continue on.Note I have a new red gelcoat RF-85 tail that I would like to sell,100.00 Less frieght Thanks Jon
Jon,
I'm not against the idea but if you were to spec a tire how many events would it have to last? National racing is not like pro racing. I'll never forget my first pro race. I was paddocked next to you guys at Mosport (you were running Wheldon) and you used more tires in two days than I had budgeted for the enitre season. With very few exceptions National drivers get by with one set of tires per weekend. The best way to help the majority is if the tire lasted multiple weekends without drop off. I can only think of one or two guys who use more than one set. Personally I'd like to see a format change so there's one practice and one qualifier on Saturday instead of two qualifiers. That would really help to reduce the need for more than one set per weekend. I think the real benefit of a spec tire is for practice and testing. After a qualifier and race our current tires are pretty used up. Getting more usable heat cycles would be nice. I'm all about getting paid if someone can make it happen but again that only helps the top drivers and most of them already have a tire deal.
Some of my biggest expenses this year have been my towing bill (diesel) and the race fuel bill (c44). I'd really like to see something done about a spec race fuel!
If they did mandate a spec tire in FC, would all the lap records be reset?
www.brennerfabrication.com
Hi Jon: Please email me about the tail. mercuryracing@yahoo.com
Thanks
Follow the money.
Chas,read above,there exists such a tire.Yeah we did use a lot of tires in 99' but w had this big qually war going back then.There were no rules really,you would start with a new set ,get the old chariot down to the last gallon and then bolt on another for a stonker in the last 5 days.Very fun,very costly.As far as usage I say 6 tires if the price is right.I definitley agree with the 1 qually.Fuel, it is hard for me to believe that you guys have not made some money on that deal,Can anyone spell thousands of gallons the SCCA has sold it why havent you?Sandy plans his vacation each year around bonking people for that corn wiskey he peddles. See-Ya in the Buckeye
Im for it!!
Leading the SeDiv CFC this season I have not bought 1 new tire ...YET.:) Dave W's "seasoned" skins do just fine thank you.
So even if I don;t but new tires do I get a check?? :cool:
I have raced in 7 different series/classes in the last 17 years...4 were spec tire classes and 3 were open tire compound classes.
How much money did the spec tire save me on tires? A BUNCH. How much money did I save over the season? None. I took the money that I would have normally spent on tires and used it to race more often and have fresher motors, that's what most racers will do. Use our finite amount of funds earmarked for racing and spend it all to go as fast as we can as often as we can. I'd rather spend my money on items that aren't so highly consumable.
I would support a spec tire class, if done properly, 100%.
It has been my experience that those who support an open tire rule are either, those with a tire deal, those with the funds to put new tires on every weekend when most of the competition can not (therefore giving them the single largest advantage that they aren't willing to race around) or those who are selling us the tires.
If you are a race shop where tires sales are your bread and butter and a class is suddenly going to be spending 1/3 or less their normal amount on tires...
I don't care if we are all racing on rocks, as long as we are all on the same rock. I have raced on some particullarly hard compound slicks, it only makes you smoother. High grip tires may be fun for the amount of g's you feel in the corners or how hard you can mash the pedals, but they can also mask a lot of little mistakes.
Actually, the rock hard tires will mask mistakes by both the driver and in the setup moreso than soft tires. Getting the best life out of soft tires requires much fewer mistakes in the setup, especially in getting the balance right. Soft tires also will not stand up to driver abuse as easily as stones.
Good tires require good drivers and cars. Just how much do you want to dumb down this class?
R. Pare,
I don't disagree with your points regarding abuse and tire life, the softer compound will degrade faster when overheated. But for the rest I guess we will just have to disagree.
My viewpoint: what requires a smoother driver with more precise inputs: a high grip surface or a very slick surface (such as rain soaked smooth track)? A car that is set to maximum downforce or one that is trimmed out?
Super sticky gumbo tires on a car that has maximum downforce is what I would consider "dumbing" the setup down.
While a compound that has tons of grip will scrub speed more quickly than a lower grip compound I believe that most of us have a larger margin of error with the gumbo tires helping keep us out of the fence and pointed in the proper direction and therefore masking more mistakes.
I think you guys are probably free to organize a spec tire series in your region any time you want... If you think you can execute the program better than anyone who has tried before, go for it.
If you're looking to reduce advantages, or affect costs, look at the "special" fuels. Spec tires and C-44? You dogs are chasing the wrong tail.
Dave