Printable View
Could some informed people tell exactly where Formula SCCA falls in the big picture with respect to club racing. These appear to be appealing and generally straight forward open wheel cars. What are the pros & cons to buying one of these things? Do they have any viability in FA or what?? What does the future hold if a person makes the investment for one of these cars?? Any knowledgeable impute would be appreciated.
I can only tell you of my experience this year. F/SCCA is my entry into club racing. I picked the car because of the "spec" nature. I did not want to be chasing the "latest and greatest" addition or having a car that became obsolete because of a new model introduced.
You will get many opinions pro and con regarding the "concept" for this car. However opinions about the car itself should only come from car owners. My experience has been very good. I have run the car six weekends and several test days with NO problems other than a sketchy throttle position sensor connector that was easily fixed once discovered. The car is a blast to drive and I won't be rebuilding engines every season.
It is NOT competitive with real FA cars, be they true Atlantics or the latest addition of Pro Mazdas. It just doesn't have the HP. It IS competitive with the FM's and FC's, so there is always someone to race with here in SOWDIV where I live.
What does the future hold? I don't know. Certainly the gearbox issues (caused by the now remedied heavy stock flywheel) and are now non-issues have caused car sales to stumble. Personally, I think the class will be successful in the long term.
There will be 4 or 5 cars at Hallett the July 4th weekend. Please come by see the cars and talk to the owners if you can make it.
If you have any other specific questions, ask away.
Thank you MarkM. I will be racing at Hallett and will find you for some conversation. Come on FSCCA tell me some more!! Convince me these cars have some future and/or I would be brain dead to buy one.
the bang-for-buck ratio appears to be low for my tastes.
the cars are selling, with full updates and low number of races, in the 32K to 35K range.
95-97 FC have competitive lap times and can be had for 15K to 18K range.
90/earlier CFC can be had for less than 11K.
Having said that, the cars apear to be laid out well, and look wizzy. There will be parts available (but you have to buy from restricted sources). most of the owners appear to be happy (with the exception of Mr. Beck) after they get all of the initial throttle cable, trans shift mechanism, trans guts, electrical gremlins worked out.
There seems to be a problem getting extra wheel sets etc, check the 'wanted' section of the FSCCA portion of this board.
please join us in the formula car class soon in whatever car you decide to get.
good luck in your search.
oops, just noticed you swift logo. you must already be one of us in the open wheel crowd.
I've watched this for quite sometime and it appears that many of the car are for sale, but due to lack of buyers are not being pushed. Mr. Beck may be the only one who is out spoken while the others hope to find a buyer.
You have to ask yourself if you think this class will ever gain traction. At the present time it looks rather grim. Do you like racing by yourself or perhaps one other car in class?
That has to be one of the significant considerations with Formula SCCA .. will the class gain traction and become viable on its own where the bang for the buck enjoys some level playing field. I am in the value business and it appears to me that these cars are hard pressed to find a value of 30K within a reasonable time frame for the reasons mentioned..similar lap times for 50-70% the initial cost. I like these cars and am listening, thanks for the comments.
While initial cost is something to consider, and with it resale value down the road, you must also consider cost to operate. I have had the car for over two years and have run 12-13 weekends and several test days. I have yet to change brake pads. We are now running pump gas (still expensive at $2.30 but not in the $6 - $40 a gallon range). Other than that it's been changing oil and cleaning/regular maintenance type of things. Add to that tires that will last 2 race weekends easily, maybe three and you've certainly got some value.
I don't buy the "for a lot less money you can buy an FC and go as fast or faster" arguement. If that's your goal, buy a DB4. Because that will be as non-competetive as the cheap FC's. Before I get bashed too hard, I came from CF, FC and FF. The only serious money I stuck in this car was when I was taken out by an out of control FM (who hasn't heard of that scenario before!).
We bought our cars when they were a lot cheaper than they are now, with the thoughts that we would be racing them for a long time. At this point I think we were and are on the right track. My personal feeling is that when this class does take off, which I feel it will, the "cheap" cars you're seeing right now for $29-30K will disappear and used ones with decent spares will be in the $35K area. I'm not personally concerned with that right now, as I'll be in this car for a long time.
Looks like these cars will take the place of the dated FM as SCCA's spec open wheel class?
They need there own Nat. class as they can not keep up with a true FA.
I think if you crash one it can get $$$ as you must use spec parts?
I would love to try one out, they seem to be able hang with a Reg. FC car.
The formula car market is a fun thing. It is very splintered into several small groups, each wanting something different. No one wants to give up their "pet car idea" . So without a clear choice the formula car market will continue to decline. 1) Some people are driven by the development and car improvement side of racing and in the car class they want you can buy an outdated car for 40 cents on the dollar, spend additional money updating the car, spend additional money each year for a fresh motor, and try to out engineer the next guy or the guy that has better ( read newer and more expensive) equipment. 2) Then there are is the group that just want to race elbow to elbow and beat their fellow competitors on the track with some adjustments and setup changes to the car but they are more focused on the driver "racing" the car against others than the car "racing" itself against other cars. 3) Then there is the group that mostly do not even care about the money involved in racing. They just want to race. This group is willing to pay big dollars to race in front of race fans and they are willing to spend the big dollars to do just that. Buying new improvements and the engineering support to do the work involved is no problem.
So first you need to ask yourself which group you are in? What are your true interests and what is the size of your racing budget?
If you are not in group 2 above then forget about the FSCCA. If you are in group 2 then you have a couple of choices.......FM and FSCCA. The FM is a good but outdated car that is about to go through a major motor change. But there are a lot of them out there. ( People were paying 40k for new FM cars a couple of years ago)
The FSCCA car is a new style car with an up to date layout. As I am sure you are aware it had a terrible program launch. Despite this fact is has sold about 100 cars. The cars problems have been resolved and it is a great car( where else can you get a 1 year warranty on a racing transmission). The fit is good and the race design of the car is excellent as well. Unfortunately the marketing plan for the car has never been equal the quality of the car. With a new SCCA E president in place and the cars technical problems solved there will be a re-launch of the car. If the re-launch is worthy of the car then this car will regain its traction . If that happens then the FSCCA car you buy today will hold its value for the next twenty years or so. If the re-launch does not do justice to the FSCCA then …well then you will be racing mostly against FM’s and some of the group 1 above cars.
For me I bought a FSCCA car which I received a month or so ago. So my thoughts are bias. This is the first formula car I have put together ( I have been racing my own car for 6 years) and it is a blast to work on. The fit and finish are great. The car is a true race car with light weight design and components. The whole group at SCCA E have been great to work with and have been very helpful in the process. They know the car forwards and backwards. They will know the car forwards and backwards for the next 20 years!! This is a great program with all the right pieces finally in place ready for the re-launch. Will it sore in to the atmosphere as it is capable of doing or will it fizzle on the launch pad??........... T - 40 and counting.
DLM
PS See you in orbit!!
What is the likelihood or potential future process for the SCCA giving this car its own class with respect to numbers, participation, etc.? Any knowledgeable voices on this question
SCCA can't give it national standing without certain participation requirements. It doesn't appear that this will happen anytime soon...if at all.
What are those numbers and how bad is this situation, in your opinion???
I would like to add that Ken, Jerry and the whole bunch over at Enterprises have been exceptional at resolving any issues with the car. They are extremely helpful. I bought a used car and they bent over backwards to help me out. By the way, I ran 97 VC FC last year and it is indeed a great class. The one thing that turned me toward this car is the spec nature of the class. The 97 FC was very competitive but not quite as fast as the 98 and up FC's. As in a previous post these pre 97's are cheap but I found myself wanting to go as fast as the others, spending more and more money to try to compete with them and finally had enough. I didn't want to do that anymore. At least for me, I cannot spend money now on the stuff that really makes you fast because everything is spec.
Tony
You would have to check the GCR for the participation requirements for National status.
There are a limited number of people drawn to open wheel cars for various reasons...mostly safety issues. Open wheel racing presents more hazzard than most are willing to accept. As a result it is difficult to attract new racers in any meaningful numbers. What you are seeing is the slice of pie getting thinner. My guess is that they have sold most of the cars they ever will, but I could be wrong.
Okay, the SCCA built a somewhat upscale open wheel spec car. The car had initial problems causing negative perception of the car and interest suffered. The car now has to race in a class where winning is not consideration if the other cars and drivers entered are in superior configuration. And…….it is possible that the SCCA will not ever sanction a
Class for this car they built and sold due to lack of #’s. Seems like treachery to me. Am I missing something here??? And, for all those owning these cars, I would also like to own one and go a little quicker. I have only put up these posts to gather info and not in an effort belittle FSCCA in any way. Baring disaster an unexpected contact I can see where these cars are no more costly to run that a top 1600 or FC giving consideration to the constant updates, tires and engine issues related to them. Rock-on!!
I have been racing open wheeled cars in SCCA for almost 30 years.In my opinion with experiences to back it up ,I have seen more injuries in door cars and non purpose built race cars than open wheeled.The danger is mainly perception with open wheeled cars not reality.You can get hurt in any race car but I would much rather risk my self to a purpose built formula or sports racer as the are designed with energy absorbtion from the chassis and suspension-crush boxes etc..I have been on my head and hit concrete walls and was always in my opinion better protected from injury in the formula car than I was in the production cars I started in.Why do you think stock car racing has so many injuries.Racing is safer now than it has ever been but there are still risks. In my opinion it is far more safe than driving to work every day.
Mike, what do you think is the future of these cars..................if you want to go on record?? If not you can mail me personally.
I agree that it is a perception issue that open-wheel is dangerous. Just look at any SM race, there is more carnage than any formula class.
Even when we had 30-car fields in FV for a regional (1970's) there were fewer accidents or serious wrecks than with production cars.
So now, with smaller fields in SEDIV FV, CF, FF the risk is less. Look at how many spec wreckers are damaged each weekend. they have fenders, so people use them as battering rams. One race last year at road Atlanta I saw 9 cars taken out in turn 5 on the first lap------
ridiculous.
I have not seen enough momentum increase in numbers for me to think that FSCCA will attain the quantity required to sustain a long life for the class. They may be the next Shelby Can-Am.
I looked in the GCR and it says that in order to become a National class, there must be participation at the regional level first. If I read this correctly (always a big if) there has to be an average of 4 or more qualifiers per event in the top 5 divisions for 2 successive years to be considered for inclusion in the National program. See pg 84 in the GCR. The bar could be pretty high if that means 4 cars at every regional race for two seasons particularly if you consider that many FSSCA owners are running Nationals in FA. The National races do not count toward incluson in National status as I read it.
Enterprises sold this car for use in ProRacing but never provided a Pro series (Cooper did for just 1 1/2 seasons - it might have worked as an ongoing series if the car had been debugged prior to building them, and if MAZDA had not come out with a really terrific updated Pro FM car). It is unfortunate that there are now about 100 of these cars without a proper venue to race them. Running with FA allows the cars on the track but with no chance of competing equally. I have harped (whined?) about Enterprises on this site before but at the moment the owners of these cars should go to the Enterprises and demand a place to race. Keep in mind, I really do not want any more formula car classes because I believe it dilutes all other formula car classes, but SCCA has an obligation as I see it.
Enterprises sold you all cars, shouldn't Enterprises provide a ligitimate place to race?
Tim
Tim, I think some consideration and fuel for argument should be that there are others like myself that are hesitant to buy one of these cars with no competitive place to go. There may be others in existing open wheel classes riding older and more costly cars that might potentially add to the overall FSCCA #’s if there were a ntl. spec. open wheel class. This appears to be a case of “build it and they will come”………but there is no place to come!!
You've missed one salient point...other open wheel racers don't want this car around to dilute their classes. There's a fierce loyalty for the existing classes.
The dynamics of this issue goes much deeper than it appears on the surface. The concern is that SCCA has undercut the members, prep shops and parts suppliers. That is why this is such a contentious issue.
[font=Times New Roman][size=3][/size][/font]
[font=Times New Roman][size=3][/size][/font]
I am not missing that point. Everyone could show up with a 1600, which was the case when all this started many years ago and it would be fine with me. But, now I am aware that all these factions exist and have their priorities and personal agendas. My initial question was where does this car appear in the big picture ONLY. I see a decent car with relatively current parts and pieces that owners have paid 30K+ for being given dog meat status within the system due to things that don’t make a lot of sense to me since I don’t know the specifics of the history of this cars evolution. But, it has been interesting hearing from you guys today concerning FSCCA.
Not that I can add any great wisdom to the topic, but that has never stopped me in the past.
I owned 2 of these car and they are great cars. For the money, you cannot go wrong.
You can buy a FC and what do you have? A pinto? Will that motor even be competitive in a couple of years? Will the Zetec take its place....any purchase is a gamble in my book.
Buy a FF, that sure is an old engine. It will take a little work to keep it running and if you want to run upfront at the nationals, have a nice size checking account in line.
Point is, they all have drawbacks. MOST of the first 100 guys to buy a FSCCA knew what they were getting into. A new class, that needed to grow.
If you have some that run near you, buy one. Go to the track and race. You will have a great time. And you are not wasting your money (well, you are...it is a race car).
My idea was, that if the entire project went to SH*!, then I would convert the car into something competitive. It is not like the SCCA is going anywhere. And if they do, it is a VD chassis. That carries value alone.
Buy one, have a great time. And make it a point to listen to people who own the cars. Not the arm chair quarter backs that may or may not have a personal agenda.
I’m sure in the vast wasteland of race car mentality there has been some devious consideration given to converting these cars to another/existing class. Is there any possible feasibility to that line of thought.??
Mr. Tovo:
Please excuse the following imprudent question. I am just trying to understand reasonings.
Your post says you 'owned' (past tense) two of these cars. If you no longer have them, why did you sell and what class did you move to?
If they are that good, it would seem to me that it might be better to keep them, which would help get the numbers up for gaining a full National status.
Come on RJ you are being mean to Tovo. His reasons could be far from racing issues.
I am really not trying to be mean. As I indicated in the text, just trying to understand his reason for getting out of FSCCA.
I sincerely apologize if the intent came across incorrectly.
Mr. Tovo has been a long-time, very knowledgeable contributor to this forum.
I think the club's really missing out on somethnig here. True FA's are INSANELY expensive at the national and pro level. Those toyota grenades are godd for what - 6 hrs?
FSCCA is an opportunity to reset that formula. With a 2.3L motor, atlantic HP is easily achievable without making a hand grenade out of it. Beefy gearbox too.
Just throw some bigger meats on it and a diffuser, and viola' - an Atlantic for the masses. Lots of straight line speed but slower and more predictable in the corners - sounds like a formula for exciting racing.
You guys already have a hundred cars - there can't be too many more competitive atlantics than that.
I think if SCCA wanted the F/SCCA car to have national racing status, it would be a pen stroke away. That is the way SR became a national class.
Dave
Rick put it well, “I think the club is missing out on something here”!! Maybe my perspective, having not been involved with the club for a long period has seen some things not necessarily positive, but DIFFERENT. This racing needs some eyeball appeal and RJ claims they look “whizzy”. Will you turn to the fence to watch a spec. Miata…right, or a DB-4 or Bill Allman in his FC on the limit?? This is an open wheel forum that needs to support the sport, while giving all the consideration to the factions and interests that make up this rare (it may get rarer by the day) group of enthusiasts. SCCA needs to get out the pen for those owners. While one respected member has pointed out to me there have been significant negative vibes to this entire FSCCA deal, but these cars do exist. They appear to be coming closer to viability with respect to mechanics and issues. If the SCCA needs a spot for FSCCA at the runoffs let then excommunicate some pathetic door slammer that equates to NOTHING vs. the DB-4 ON THE LIMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That's a fair statement - they've already reduce the number of GT classes - Production can't be far behind, right?. Frankly, I prefer the idea of a spec class, but I like open-wheel. When I bought my current car about two years ago, FM was just coming out with their new car (meaning what for the old car?) and FSCCA was too new to know if it would make or not - and I don't have $35K to speculate with. I probably won't keep my F500 past the end of this season....FSCCA looks like a decent alternative, but only if it would become a 'real' class, which is not clear at all. I'd rather not end up with today's Shelby Can-Am.......Quote:
If the SCCA needs a spot for FSCCA at the runoffs let then excommunicate some pathetic door slammer that equates to NOTHING vs. the DB-4 ON THE LIMIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
For what it is worth, I am taking a little break from racing cars. The only reason I sold my cars was because of time and family/business commitments.
And as far as keeping the cars if I am not going to race them, just did not make sense to me financially or for the class. Leaving the cars parked is the worst thing that anyone could do for the class.
And my favorite car was sold to a guy that has run the car about 20 sessions since he bought it and has not had a single failure!
SCCA cannot just make the car a National class. Legal issues and member input would not accept it (and I cannot disagree with them). The car could be more competitive in another class, but they chose FA. Which, in its own right, makes some sense. The car is not meant to be an equal to a Swift FA, but it fills a needed gap. The FA class was small and in trouble. By adding the FSCCA to it, it helps both out.
But, people should not even worry about that. Race it regionally, grow the class! But some guys keep racing nationals and that is not good for class growth.
Marshall is EXACTLY the guy that, IF Enterprises starts supporting this class, will jump in with both feet and won't be dissapointed... I have talked with numerous people in his situation. Where is the Enterprises' marketing department?? COME ON GUYS!!! there is a market for this car. SUPPORT US! I love my FSCCA and most of the guy's that bought one love it, Its the guys sitting on the fence that will make or break this class. (IMHO) I race both regional and national events on a weekend. FSCCA looks like it will be a regional class in all regions for sure next year. With good car counts at the races - you gotta get them out there and race - we should have a national class in 2007?
There is another thing that keeps me inquisitive about the future of SCCA open wheel racing. There appears to a limited supply/breed of cat that wants this level of action and risk. But, they may be willing to move horizontally from one class to another and be happy guys both financially and with respect to challenge. Any comment??
What "horizontal" move are you talking about? FM, FC? For me, FC is back to the "latest and greatest" tweak, and annual engine rebuilds. Also, no sequential shift. But, I like the "look" of the cars. FM does not have the "look" that I want. Some may think that is dumb, but to each his own. The look of the car is important to me.
I hope that F/SCCA does not become the latest Shelby Can Am debacle. I think it is up to the owners to promote the car and to pressure SCCA to keep our best interest in mind.
I run both regional and national races on a given weekend, it seems like the majority of the drivers here do the same.
All that being said, I respect the "passion" that owners of FA, FM, FC, FF have for their cars.
I second the motion that formula cars are "safer" than the other classes. They are purpose built cars and GENERALLY are driven by people very respectful of the inherent risks of open wheel competition.
Originally,I for one was against this class because of the dilution of other open wheeled classes it would cause.The original process that brought this car forward was flawed and is a black eye for our club.In reality though it is the car of the future because of low operating costs,parts availability and service that SCCA Enterprises offers and it looks like a current Formula car.I agree that it had a difficult time in the last year with mechanical issues but I believe the problems are rectified and the class is well on it's way to success.I am an open wheeled fanatic,I own a Van Diemen F2000 and built my own F2000 and my own FF.I hope that those two classes will be around for a long time.But most people interested in a Formula car are not willing to build their own car or even spend many hours a week working on one.Many do not have the time to spend.These are some of the factors that makes the F/SCCA car very viable in the market place in my opinion.I think the F/SCCA needs a relaunch in the market place and it could ultimately rival SRF as the most popular class in SCCA in a few years.These opinions expressed are from Mike Sauce the 30 plus year racer not Mike Sauce the 1.5 year BOD member.
Well said by one that has the experience to see the big picture better than most. My view is almost from the outside looking in while running a 1600 this year. But, I have raced since 1973 in many different moving projectiles and in my opinion something in the general configuration of FSCCA is the future with respect to overall appeal, performance, cost and maintenance. If this car, or a car similar to this could be made to run without significant problems, having no basic mechanical/design flaws it would have the appearance of a club racing car that would supercede many of the complaints that exist within the existing open wheel classes (old engines/rebuilds/pinto-ZTech/tweak of the day/maintenance cost/etc.).
I bought a used FSCCA earlier this year after doing significant analysis of my choices (FC, FM, DSR, etc.). I could not be happier with my choice.
The main factors I considered were (in no particular order): initial cost, cost of running, fun to drive/speed, future of the class, cost of parts, size/looks, and driver focused competition. Without going into the anal details of my review, it was clear to me that the overall cost/fun factor for the FSCCA was the best. FC was close, but the future of that class as a result of the Zytec issues is no more certain than FSCCA, and there is a virtual guarantee that either the Pinto or Zytec car will be a dud in the near future. History suggests there is no way of making the two engine identical. And the cost of running any FC is significantly greater than an FSCCA (have you got the new shock valving for the Glen ...).
Of course, the FSCCA car/program is not perfect, but what is? The parts pricing issues have improved principally through the use of alternative manufacturers, but there is a way to go. I think we all know another important step that Enterprises needs to take asap ... eliminate the middle men taking siginficant percentages. Being that there is a business solution to this problem and I believe in the competence of the Enterprises staff, I am comfortable that this issue will be resolved.
We had 11 FSCCAs at the VIR double Regional; that was more than FC and FM combined! My opinion is that after talking to my fellow racers, once this car reaches national status, the turn out at Nationals will be similar. There were five FSCCAs at the LRP National this weekend; more than DSR, CSR, S2000, FM, or real FA.
I don't believe I have seen one person who has actually raced the FSCCA car this year be negative about it or the program. And every driver I have spoken with, loves it. Nuff said.
Oliver
If I am not mistaken, these cars are also ran as Formula Ireland with a Zetec and an LD200 gearbox. I think there is mention of this on the Van Diemen website.
Ok, there is an important point no one is talking about. It is CLUB racing and the goal is FUN. I have had lots of fun in the last 3 months as a new owner. The car is very close to the FC and FM in performance ( and looks way cooler). If you go out and race, make a good pass and beat the guy you have been battling with, thats FUN. It takes little away that he is in a FM and 'not in my class'. If you waunt to be hanging with a Toyota FA, just keep going around they will eventully blow up.
I love this car and I have had no mechanical problems as of yet, thats saying something in a formula car.
If you like to race you have lots of options, this is a good one. I hope 5 yrs from now its like SFR was in its prime, with 20 spec cars battling on Sunday.
Craig