Cost of Going Racing - Transponders

[924RACR]

So when they first came out, I got mine for $250. Pricey, but worth the investment.

Managed to pick up another used one for a decent price, for the second racecar.

Good thing; they're now up over $500 for the hard-wired unit.

Oh, but wait, now AMB's going to some sort of subscription-based scam. God help you if you get to the track and your subscription data is not accessible or updated - as we're already hearing has happened to some racers this year.

What steps is the Board taking to manage this apparently uncontrolled and rapidly-escalating cost of going racing?

There are alternatives to the AMB monopoly; similar technology is in use for RC car racing, for noticeably less cost.

Is this even on the radar?

[Dave Harmison]

I did a little googling and it appears the RC guys have the same complaints.

The whole thing I think hinges on how well they protected the idea with patents. I have no issue with a company developing and providing technology and making a profit, that's what drives innovation, but at some point it turns into something smelly.

[kea]

but at some point it turns into something smelly.

I think I'm smelling something now !

[Chris Livengood]

I posted on the other AMB thread, but I believe there is a viable Chinese alternative. They can get away with it because... China.

[924RACR]

I don't mind supporting innovation, intellectual property rights, and honest business practices...

...but usually costs go down over time.

[BeerBudgetRacing]

Doesn't the transponder work for purposes of the race organizers recording your time at the track regardless of whether you have a subscription or not?

Isn't a data system a better investment for analyzing your lap times?

[Steve Demeter]

In the time transponders have been required, someone name me one electronic device that has basically stayed the same with the cost doubling.

What a racket and we have the BOD from many years ago to thank for all the current heartache.

At first it was not too bad, but I dread when mine gives up and I have to buy a new one.

[Purple Frog]

Somewhere out there Tab McBlane is laughing his ass off and screaming "I told you so!!!".

note: For you newbies, you have to go back about 13 years to see Tab's transponder rants on then F2000.com, now Apexspeed.

[Rick Kirchner]

I'm waiting for the SCCA to announce the new Majors series sponsor - AMB! And only the newest ones can be used, but you'll get 10% off your next stay at a Knight's Inn....

I don't think Indy uses that system, although the timing loop is compatible, because our systems work at the SVRA event.

[Todd Butler]

Nobody at SCCA is happy about the cost of transponders now. We're looking into possible alternatives, but it's not an easy solution. RFID for instance seems nice and cheap and easy at first glance. But it's not. The chip can't be read by the embedded timing loop and we'd need permanent or temporary antennas across the top of the track. Then there's the question of accuracy, RFID is does not appear as accurate wrt position as a transponder for timing at racing speeds.

Pain is felt. If there are people out there with experience, ideas about cheap, accurate timing systems that will roll up into a central Timing and Scoring system at the track, we're open to suggestions.

Todd Butler
Area 13 Director (for 1 more month)

[Hardingfv32]

I would say that you are free to broadcast any signal you want within FCC regulations. The key is that the signal has to represent a specific ID number. This would require an understanding of what the AMB base station response to.

Evidently there is/was a alternate transponder manufactured. It was programmable with 20 alternate ID numbers incase you overlap with a AMB assignment. I believe the new AMB design was developed to prevent this alternate transponder from being used.

Brian

[Rick Kirchner]

Since enterprises has such a background and history in low volume production, why not put out a spec and see if any small electronics companies (like CDS maybe?) would be willing to produce a design for Enterprises.

Like I said, would be interesting to see how many years are left on the original AMB patents.

I can't remember, but if a manufacturer abandons support for a design, doesn't that put it in the public domain? Got any IP lawyers on the site?

[Steve Demeter]

I wonder if Tab is still driving his motor home around and parking in Wal Mart lots.

A really nice guy who got burned out on racing in a hurry.

Somewhere out there Tab McBlane is laughing his ass off and screaming "I told you so!!!".

note: For you newbies, you have to go back about 13 years to see Tab's transponder rants on then F2000.com, now Apexspeed.

[Daryl DeArman]

Electronics gurus in the RC world have built AMB compatible transponder clones and have the parts lists and schematics available for free, just a little google required.

They seem to only run into issues when the tracks auto update their software versions.

Maybe the new units and software change code like the Intellicode garage door openers.

Timing and scoring could go back to the old way....it worked fine for decades. Maybe AMB would then reevaluate their pricing model.

[FVRacer21]

Timing and scoring could go back to the old way....it worked fine for decades. Maybe AMB would then reevaluate their pricing model.

You cannot go home - no way they could find enough people to do timing the old way. Or you go all the way back to honor qualifying......

Chris Z

[sracing]

Since enterprises has such a background and history in low volume production, why not put out a spec and see if any small electronics companies (like CDS maybe?) would be willing to produce a design for Enterprises.

tHAT could be done, but I am sure it violates the SCCA/track agreement(s) with AMB. THe track equipment was free or at low cost with a commitment that transponders be from AMB. The transponders' ID number is unique and coded by AMB. THe chance for a duplicate at any given event would be rare, but it would mess up AMB data collection software. And readily apparent to AMB.

I can't remember, but if a manufacturer abandons support for a design, doesn't that put it in the public domain? Got any IP lawyers on the site?

Not normally. It's generally 14 to 20 years in any case. (Depending upon filing category. However patent right is not the real issue here. BTW, I already looked at building them. Under $50 with a 50% profit is EASY..

[Ranald]

if a manufacturer abandons support for a design, doesn't that put it in the public domain? Got any IP lawyers on the site?

Not a lawyer but manage a technology company where patent rights and other forms of IP are a large component. The simple answer is no. The patent system acknowledges that product evolution continues and that evolving product lines may incorporate the base patented technology while progressing beyond the initial embodiment of that patent.

[Daryl DeArman]

You cannot go home - no way they could find enough people to do timing the old way. Or you go all the way back to honor qualifying......

Chris Z

You don't need that many folks today. Fields are small and mostly spread out. I worked T&S on a 1/4mi short track with 20+ cars turning sub 14 second laps.

If 4 people can handle that task, 4 people can certainly handle T&S at any SCCA event.

[mousecatcher]

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[mousecatcher]

In the time transponders have been required, someone name me one electronic device that has basically stayed the same with the cost doubling.

Data acquisistion systems.

No but seriously, electronics get cheaper because chips get cheaper. This doesn't apply quite as well to RF products like the AMB transponder (with low part count to begin with) as it does to things like laptops. Also, the market gets much, much larger over time. Our market appears to be shrinking -- and the devices last forever. You do the math.

The transponders' ID number is unique and coded by AMB.

Some recent patents by AMB revolve around preventing ID duplication, by using encryption. They cite fraud as a concern but at least in auto racing and probably most forms of competition that's not really possible thanks to visual backup. So really their invention is about preventing copycat devices. Which is fair, although they should just state it as such.

The new X2 apparently prevents duplication or copying.

BTW, I already looked at building them. Under $50 with a 50% profit is EASY..

I've recently undertaken some electronics projects and have come to the conclusion that one needs 5-10x markup to make any money. So to claim a $25 BOM is besides the point. It's not the parts cost that is the major factor in electronics products, it's the R&D, the invention itself, in the case of racing the harsh condition testing, etc. Of course you can make money at only 2x when you pull a China and just copy an existing device that has an existing support infrastructure. That's not to say AMB isn't screwing us all, they are but not just because the parts cost of a transponder is low.

That said, I do not have time to do a thorough search but from a perusal I would guess that the more simplisitic (relatively speaking) system we all have today is patent-free at this point. I doubt there's much of a business there but someone with time on their hands might want to check it out.

[rickb99]

..... The patent system acknowledges that product evolution continues and that evolving product lines may incorporate the base patented technology while progressing beyond the initial embodiment of that patent.

That's a gobble-de-gook way of saying we'll give you a patent but don't count on it being much good.

When I was at RCA we defended our patents to the death..

[Rick Kirchner]

I would guess that the more simplisitic (relatively speaking) system we all have today is patent-free at this point. I doubt there's much of a business there but someone with time on their hands might want to check it out.

Thats where I was going with my post regarding having enterprises do it. I purchased my transponder in 1999. that would imply that patent protection on that design (as well as the associated receive equipment) would expire around 2019 - probably a few years earlier.

[QUOTE] tHAT could be done, but I am sure it violates the SCCA/track agreement(s) with AMB. THe track equipment was free or at low cost with a commitment that transponders be from AMB. The transponders' ID number is unique and coded by AMB. THe chance for a duplicate at any given event would be rare, but it would mess up AMB data collection software. And readily apparent to AMB. [QUOTE]

I'm sure the club lawyers would think otherwise, but who cares? With a transition plan in place, AMB could be free to retrieve thier outdated equipment. Motorsports reg looks to be interested in the reporting functions we used to get before AMB goobered up thier web interface. Maybe it would be a wake-up call to them ala' the way Hondas move into FF woke up Ford (admittedly, just enough to supply new blocks, but who knows how much of an effect that had in improving thier european FF program)

Enterprises could branch out a bit and offer the devices to non-SCCA members at a higher price, covering all the vintage and some of the pro motorsports groups, while at the same time managing the ID numbers for all. After all, the SCCA has mosto f the AMB numbers in its database now, and I'm sure ti wouldn't take much to get the VMC and NASA on board given the amoount of member overlap.

[mousecatcher]

Nobody at SCCA is happy about the cost of transponders now. We're looking into possible alternatives, but it's not an easy solution.

Here's an easy solution that other clubs (and some SCCA regions) do. Buy a bunch of battery powered transponders. Include use of one in the entry fee, or add a nominal charge.

But at least for today, the non-subscription transponders are still available and even if it's damn expensive for what it is, in the grand scheme it's not even worth budgeting for. $500 over the usable lifetime of the car is nothing.

[rickb99]

Hey guys, If the SCCA or some other club are really serious about an alternative to AMD what would be wrong with following the Le Mans model? Go with Chronelec TAG-HEUER system. They time Le Mans and I suspect they are used at a lot of other European tracks. They also do the Tour de France and other types of events.

http://www.chronelec.com/en/

Notice they don't even have a dealer in the USA and I'm guessing they have just given up this market to AMB. One club could change that model.

ALSO, there's an indication that their system can read the AMB codes. So, you could use your AMBs till they break then buy new Chronelec's.

Don't know money details but worth looking in to.

[cory mcleod]

Used AMB transponder sold on Ebay last week for $420 - ouch!

[Daryl DeArman]

Hey guys, If the SCCA or some other club are really serious about an alternative to AMD what would be wrong with following the Le Mans model? Go with Chronelec TAG-HEUER system. They time Le Mans and I suspect they are used at a lot of other European tracks. They also do the Tour de France and other types of events.

http://www.chronelec.com/en/

Notice they don't even have a dealer in the USA and I'm guessing they have just given up this market to AMB. One club could change that model.

ALSO, there's an indication that their system can read the AMB codes. So, you could use your AMBs till they break then buy new Chronelec's.

Don't know money details but worth looking in to.

Given current Euro to USD exchange rate $215 for the ProTime Elite. That one's good for speeds upto 223mph (360kmh)

[mousecatcher]

Go with Chronelec TAG-HEUER system.

AMB requires a loop in the ground. Do you know if the Chronoelec system is compatible with the existing timing loop? That would be absolutely critical. (and AMB transponder compatibility as well, of course)

[Dave Harmison]

A guy I work with races motorcycles with a group called SOAR out of Canada that he says has a home-made RFID based system. They just give you an RFID sticker to put on your helmet and that's it. Pretty simple.

[jwr914]

Tracks do not get AMB equipment for free.

I'll look into the European systems and compatibility. We will be doing a lot of construction in the next year so I'll have time and reason to adjust. INDY uses AMB, just the pro model of the transponders. The original X2 system was an either/or reader. Now they read both. That's a simple explanation.

I checked their site. Their software says it is compatible with AMB decoders, is free to download, and has many of the Orbits features. I'll download it tomorrow and test that part of the system.


James R.

[M.Sauce]

It seems to me with the advance of technology we should be able to buy transponders in the $150 range. I think AMB is way over priced. Why does a Go Kart transponder cost so much less? It is AMB as well.

[mousecatcher]

the kart transponder is only good for 160kph.

[KevinFirlein]

just out of curiousity(sp ) who is going to get the tracks to rip up their asphalt to run new timing loops or install over heads ? Cost of racing is the reason for this thread so the answer is to require every SCCA to go out and buy new equipment ? Build your own ? Send out the specs and we will all build our own ? well that would surely eliminate the need for them as more then half the people currently racing would get eliminated as they wouldn't be able to do it.

I bought a rechargeable unit in 98 that still holds charge fine. That's 18 seasons of use. At the current price of a hard wired unit that comes to just under $28 a season. I have a hard time seeing that as a bad racing expense when viewed at the cost of a non item such as a skid plates or if you drag an endplate across too high of a curb

[Rick Kirchner]

a) who says the loops have to be replaced? (other than when they break from weather or the need to replace pavement)

b) all electronic equipment needs to be replaced, and the newer it is the more frequent, especially if it has software in it. If not from OS obsolescence, then when the manufacturer decides not to "support" something (meaning, they need to find a new revenue stream)

I don't think the cost o transponders is the issue as much as the cost PLUS the never ending "service", which isn't really a service, just a means of keeping you giving them money to guarantee your transponder will still be recognized by their timing systems.

[Spengo]

the kart transponder is only good for 160kph.

We use regular kart transponders for road race on the big tracks too. 125cc situp shifters get to 180kph and superkarts get up to 225kph. Seems to work fine at those speeds.

I should add, all the new karting transponders are subscription-based now too.

[scorp997]

The "speed" limitation of a transponder is only valid at the timing loop itself. At my local track, tHe loop is at a place that speeds are well under the 'kart' version.

[Steve Demeter]

If Tab is reading this I bet he is laughing his a.. off.

[Wren]

If Tab is reading this I bet he is laughing his a.. off.

He may be, but he is still just as wrong now as he was then.

[Marshall Mauney]

Since enterprises has such a background and history in low volume production, why not put out a spec and see if any small electronics companies (like CDS maybe?) would be willing to produce a design for Enterprises.

Rick - we would be glad to do a run of something like that and integrate it into our data systems.

The trouble is in compatibility with the timing software - it's a ticking time bomb. Once the first track's XP timing computer goes belly-up, they would have to go to a Windows 10 machine, which would require the new AMB software, which uses their new proprietary keying algorithm that can't easily be hacked. [We're finishing up a re-write of our package right now just to be compatible with the new Windows versions, so we've got a real chunk of scar tissue around this issue.]

AMB have done a very good job of slowly putting lock-out steps in place to prevent us from doing what you suggest.

[Rick Kirchner]

Marshall - I don't think your point has been brought up here or on the other thread in such a clear manner: that AMB will drive all of us to purchasing new transponders and associated services via a software obscelescence ploy. If so all the arguments that a new system would require tracks to replace their old systems ring hollow - that will be a necessity anyway. The real question is do we tie ourselves to AMB forever or jump ship right now (and if its a good solution, would surely disrupt their business model, which assumes nobody will dare compete with them).

Seems the solution to "cut 'em off at the pass" would be a system that recognizes old AMBs, the bosch units, and a reverse-engineered designed based on the old AMBs, with the timing hardware and software not related to the timing management software (like using a real-time OS on a microcontroller to pass the data via a defined interface to excel or the Open Office equivalent). Once in the spreadsheet or a database format any macro could format or print the data in any way desired.

Seems like there's about a two-year window of opportunity

[mmi16]

Marshall - I don't think your point has been brought up here or on the other thread in such a clear manner: that AMB will drive all of us to purchasing new transponders and associated services via a software obscelescence ploy. If so all the arguments that a new system would require tracks to replace their old systems ring hollow - that will be a necessity anyway. The real question is do we tie ourselves to AMB forever or jump ship right now (and if its a good solution, would surely disrupt their business model, which assumes nobody will dare compete with them).

Seems the solution to "cut 'em off at the pass" would be a system that recognizes old AMBs, the bosch units, and a reverse-engineered designed based on the old AMBs, with the timing hardware and software not related to the timing management software (like using a real-time OS on a microcontroller to pass the data via a defined interface to excel or the Open Office equivalent). Once in the spreadsheet or a database format any macro could format or print the data in any way desired.

Seems like there's about a two-year window of opportunity

What other ship is there to jump to?