Three Open-Wheel Groups at Majors Events

[GT1Vette]

After lengthy discussions, the Atlanta Region officials have agreed to run an eight-group schedule at their March 21-23 BFGoodrich Tires Super Tour event. Most of the other Eastern Conference events (VIR, NJMP, WGI) plus Mid-Ohio and the June Sprints will do the same.

This means we'll have three (3) open-wheel groups on those three-day (two-race) weekends. What I'm recommending follows:

. FA, FB, P1
. FC, FE, FM, P2
. FF, F5, FV

I'll also recommend split starts in each of those groups but how (and if) they are split will be determined by event subscription.

The driving factor in my discussions is that having less cluttered open-wheel groups will encourage addition participation from this community at those events, plus there's also the safety aspect to take into consideration. If you'd like to see this practice continue into 2015, the most compelling way to cast your vote is via an entry fee.

See y'all at the track...

[Agitator]

That's huge, in my opinion. Well done.

[glenn cooper]

Thank you, BK - That will go a long way to getting people interested in participating.
I hope to make my racing return at Rd Atl on that weekend, and this is just more good news.
I know that the track does the test day, any chance of getting them to adapt to this format?

[GT1Vette]

Thank you, BK - That will go a long way to getting people interested in participating.
I hope to make my racing return at Rd Atl on that weekend, and this is just more good news.
I know that the track does the test day, any chance of getting them to adapt to this format?

An interesting idea, Coop. Granted more groups would mean you'd get fewer sessions, but maybe less "diversity" in those sessions would make them more valuable to the competitors?

Obviously the telling factor to the track would be income, so let me run some numbers and get back with y'all...

[Chris Robson]

Butch,

Thank you so much for your effort. I honestly had "written off" attending any SCCA events, because of the run groups. Nothing will ever appease everyone, but having raced in the Southeast division in the past, and the March Road Atlanta event being one of my favorites, I can attest that these groups should allow for spirited competition, with out too much interference from each group. I am now seriously considering amending our schedule to include one, or more of these events.

Chris Robson

[Wren]

Very impressive.

That will go a long, long way towards improving the experience for all OW/SR participants.

[cory mcleod]

Great news! I will be voting with an entry fee at RA, VIR, and WGI.

Regarding more groups on the practice day, I disagree with Coop. Even though I spend more time than I'd like to watching the mirrors (F500) in a larger F/SR group, I find it most beneficial to have as many sessions as possible on a practice day.

Cory

[GT1Vette]

Duly noted.

For the past several years Road Atlanta has run five groups and offered each group four sessions (three 20's and a 15). Last year it was $225 for the whole day, but they also pro-rate the cost based on how many sessions are left when you sign up.

Besides Coop and Cory, any other thoughts on how you'd like to see the day structured and/or what it'd be worth to you to get that?

[formulasuper]

Wouldn't a greater number of test sessions, although it would mean shorter time segments, be more beneficial? 15 or even 10 minutes is plenty for me to learn what set-up changes I need to make before the next session. I realize they would still need the same amount of clean-up time between sessions but still should be able to squeeze in another session or two for all groups.

[JohnPaul]

Great idea, grouped perfectly. My suggestion would be to do split starts by times not class. What I noticed at Sebring was that the first bunch of cars in the second group wee much faster than the mid to end of the first group cars. This important during restarts, There was major traffic and got really dicey on the restarts when everyone got bunched up.

[GT1Vette]

Great idea, grouped perfectly. My suggestion would be to do split starts by times not class. What I noticed at Sebring was that the first bunch of cars in the second group wee much faster than the mid to end of the first group cars. This important during restarts, There was major traffic and got really dicey on the restarts when everyone got bunched up.

A "split start by times" would be a regular start. The purpose of a split start is to separate the fast guys in a slower class from the "less experienced" drivers in the faster class that turn similar lap times but do it in very different ways. The theory is that by the time the slower class cars catch the TEC's in the faster class both fields are spread out more and (again in theory) people will be more tolerant of drivers in the other class. Of course all this goes out the window when you go FCY and/or people lack situational awareness.

Some people like split starts because they tend to put all the cars in a class together. Others don't like them because they'd rather have out-of-class cars between themselves and their closest pursuers that might be a few seconds back. Split starts also quadruple the chances of something going wrong ((races + officials) * 2), so if you have an opinion you need to let event organizers know prior to the event.

[JohnPaul]

A "split start by times" would be a regular start. .

lol true

[Steve Bamford]

Will there be three open wheel groups for the March Road Atlanta Major event as there was in 2014?

I checked last years entry list & it seemed to work to attract more drivers from what I can see.

F500, FF & FV had 28 entries
FA. FB & P1 had 34 entries
FC, FE & FM had 25 entries

Those seem like very good numbers compared to other major events I looked at.

Hopefully the folks at Road Atlanta can make this happen once again! If anyone has any info please post, email or PM me as I am considering heading down if the split run groups look like this once again & need to plan.

[Purple Frog]

Steve,

I PM'ed you a list of important folks which to email your question.

[Steve Bamford]

Thanks Purple one,

I sent off my emails.

[Brian C in Az]

A split start by class, with a quarter of a lap spread for a field of 3 classes, should keep each group separate from the other classes for at least 3 or 4 laps. That is plenty of time for the fields to spread out and give everyone plenty of opportunity for setting up to pass safely and with very little interference from the slower cars.

[Jeff Read]

Well done Butch. I wish that you could convince the powers that be out west the same !!

[Steve Bamford]

Well done Butch. I wish that you could convince the powers that be out west the same !!

To be clear, this was last years 2014 event which seemed to work out well. Yes, Butch should also be congratulated on getting this done in 2014.

Purpose of my post is I am trying to find out if it will be run the same for 2015.

[Purple Frog]

At Road Atlanta with its very high speeds, steep hills to crest, and blind corners, the closing speeds between the range of formula car / sports racer classes is insanity. It is not like a flat course where you can see far in advance. I myself have busted over T9 at full tilt to discover myself passing six cars into the braking zone at T10. I'm still apologizing to Steve Davis for the slide move in 10a.

Thus the pleasure of the 2014 Major grouping.

[Steve Bamford]

I have been told there are three open wheel groupings again this year however they are not the same groupings as last year. Apparently FC and FF are running together but I do not know any more then that. I have no clue if FV are running in this group or another group. I have requested a complete run group listing so will hopefully receive it later on. If anyone has it could you post it or email me the details as I would appreciate it.

I sure hope FC and FV are not running together. It can and has been done before successfully, it just isn't the best coming into turn one in a FC with a FV already mid corner.

[Keith Carter]

I don't think there is much of a better way to group it. The FVs are significantly slower than the majority of other open wheel cars that the way Butch has them is the only way it would realistically work well. Splits will be a must though.

[Steve Bamford]

I don't think there is much of a better way to group it. The FVs are significantly slower than the majority of other open wheel cars that the way Butch has them is the only way it would realistically work well. Splits will be a must though.

But Keith they are not running the cars with the same splits Butch put in place last year. I agree Butch's pairings make sense, not sure how the change will be this year but I can't see FV running alone so if FF is running with FC then I am guessing FV are mixed in their as well. I could be totally wrong where FV is mixed with but have been told FC and FF are together.

[BLS]

It's worse than you think:

Group 1 includes FC, FF, F5, FV, and P2 45 total cars

Group 5 which is everything else FA, FB, FE, FM, P1 has 32 cars.

Group 5 should include FC and P2 IMO.

I'm not the only person that thinks the grouping is insane.

OOPs. That grouping is the Sebring majors, not RA. Sorry.

[GT1Vette]

Last year I cashed in a large amount of political capital to get many of the Eastern Conference regions to agree to three open-wheel groups, and for the most part it seemed to work out well (and the drivers supported the change). I no longer have any input into the race groups for Atlanta or any other region, but I've sent an e-mail to Atlanta's 2015 Race Chair asking what they'll be this year. If/when I hear back I'll post them here.

[Keith Carter]

After some further thought, I would probably switch some of the classes from groups 1 and 2 to allow for easier passing when the classes do come together on track.

I would recommend the following and put P2 in with whomever needs more cars to even things out then in some cases the splits are natural then you would split the same speed cars or the fendered/open wheel cars:

. FA, FC, FM
. P1, FB, FE
. FF, F5, FV

[Steve Bamford]

Here are the standard U.S. Majors Tour class groupings:
7 Race Groups: (classes in these groups are most likely to be combined at events in the season)
• SM
• SRF, SRF3
• Big Bore Closed Wheel (GT1, GT2, GT3, AS, T1)
• Small(er) DOT Closed Wheel (STL, STU, T2, T3, T4, B-Spec)
• Small Bore Slicks Closed Wheel (EP, FP, GTL, HP)
• Big Bore Open Wheel (FA, FB, FC, FE, FM, P1, P2)
• Small Bore Open Wheel (FV, FF, F5)

Atlanta is not following this apparently & running three open wheel classes???

Just not sure how FV, FF, F5, FC & P2 make it all into run group one. I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night so maybe that is why I can't figure it out.

[GT1Vette]

I got an answer and there are indeed three open-wheel groups, but I can only imagine they came out as they did because the F-1000 Series "bought" their own run group.

Group 1 - FC, FF, FV, F500
Group 3 - FB
Group 8 - FA, FM, FE, P1, P2

Wow...

[Steve Bamford]

I got an answer and there are indeed three open-wheel groups, but I can only imagine they came out as they did because the F-1000 Series "bought" their own run group.

Group 1 - FC, FF, FV, F500
Group 3 - FB
Group 8 - FA, FM, FE, P1, P2

Wow...

How much did they pay? Can any collective single class with approx 15 cars or what is the magic number of racers that is needed to buy a run group some where & how do you do it?

Good for the FB guys, not taking anything away from them as they did what they needed to get their own run group. This just sorta screws other groups slightly.

[BLS]

Wow...

To paraphrase Orwell:

"All club members are equal, but some club members are more equal than others"

[Keith Carter]

The only open wheel attendance this change will help will be FB.

[Steve Bamford]

The only open wheel attendance this change will help will be FB.

They had 9 FB cars last year, FA had 14. Not sure how this makes sense. I second Butch's WOW!

[racerdad2]

Random thoughts

Reminder. FB paid for their own run group. Perhaps a much higher entry fee for the privilege of having a single class race ?

I reas a lot of complaints last season from FB about the slower classes ruining their races & suggested they buy their own track time. I'm not taking credit nor blame

My question is this. What happened to good old fashioned gentlemen's sportsmanship ?

Two fast guys racing hard come up on lap traffic. One gets thru cleanly. One gets held back. There is no rational reason the guy that gets thru cleanly can't lift a bit and let his competition catch up to resume the fight. Racing hard, wheel-to-wheel, is just the best experience, IMHO.

Running out front, doing hot laps, can be done on any track day.

Now, run groups. ... FC & P2 is seemingly unwise. Split starts help for a few laps and then it gets very 'interesting'.

Somehow, we open wheeled guys need to have our own race weekends with only two, possibly three, mixed classes on track at a time.

Any Billionaires out there that love Amateur Open Wheel Racing willing to subsidize our hobby ?




FC & P2 with FV is certainly unwise. Split starts help for a few laps.

[racerdad2]

FC & P2 unwise with FV. For every one !

I gotta learn to edit my posts before hitting the reply button

[BLS]

It is club racing. Some classes are less well off financially than others. I have no problem with the better off financially buying their own track time, but not during a Club racing weekend. The SCCA should have guidelines for groupings and those should be adhered to, not subject to the wealthier buying more time.

Mixing FC and P2 with FF and F5 is bad enough. Mixing them in with FV is insane. It hurts everyone's race, and we'll be lucky if there are not injury's as a result. If I were the SCCA insurance carrier I would not cover groupings like that.

[Randy Cook]

FB under the USF1000 banner has enjoyed the excitement of standing starts occasionally and this I think is the reason FB has their own run group. (At an additional entry cost of $125 per car for the ones I've been in.)

What do you all think of a run group with more than one class of car doing standing starts, say in waves 10 seconds apart? (Assuming a clean get away by the first group.) Too much opportunity for trouble??

Just a thought. They are fun!!

[Steve Bamford]

How does one of the smaller subscribed classes get their own run group at a Major? Has this been done before?

This should be done in conjunction with other non SCCA weekends in my opinion such as a Formula Promotions weekend like was done at Mid Ohio or Pitts last year.

I am happy for the FB racers however this doesn't seem fair to the rest of the open wheel racers.

[racerdad2]

How about three open wheel groups as follows :

FA, FB, P1

FE, FM, FC, P2

FF, F-5/6, FV

Split starts at ten second intervals, either rolling or standing.

Make this, or something similar, Mandated at all SCCA Club events.

Seemingly safer. Insurance friendly. Competitors happier.

Racing at BHF this past season I caught an FV coming into turn three in my CFC just as an F5 was closing in on me.

The FV stayed wide to give me the corner as I stayed next to him to give room for the F5 on my inside. Three wide into turn three on a narrow track was a heads up move by all three of us. I'd like to think it was our combined skill & race craft that got us safely thru. Probably just lucky

[Steve Bamford]

How about three open wheel groups as follows :

FA, FB, P1

FE, FM, FC, P2

FF, F-5/6, FV

You mean identical to how Butch had it done last year as listed in the first post? Ya seemed to work then...not sure of the thinking for 2015.

[racerdad2]

Yes, Burch had it right. I'd highly recommend respectfully petitioning the Race Chair. I've found them to be very reasonable. Perhaps Beginner's luck ?

I hope y'all get a better grouping. A split standing start, as offered with FB, may be a good compromise ?

[racerdad2]

Geez... BUTCH ! Dang auto-correct. ...