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  1. #1
    Contributing Member Jnovak's Avatar
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    Default Announcing the new Nova F600 Blade



    Great news. Production of our new Nova F600 Blade has started. We are building today!

    NovaRace, Piontek Engineering, Hurley Racing Products and LincSpeed Design have teamed up to produce the most advanced F600 race car available and we are pleased to announce that the next generation of F600-F500 race cars will be going into production immediately.

    The first production car will be developed by our driver team of 2 time National Champion, Brian Novak and the Multi-Divisional Champion, Calvin Stewart. Testing will commence early this summer and production Nova Blade F600s will be available later this year.

    How fast are the F600 race cars? These cars are powered by 14,000 RPM 4 cylinder 600CC motorcycle engines with 6 speed sequential gearboxes and paddle shifters. The sound of these cars is absolutely amazing and the F600 lap records are the equal of FF lap records at all kinds of race tracks. And the best part is the cost, all this and at a cost that is less than ½ of a new FF car.

    The new Nova F600 Blade is a state of the art design that has taken over a year to complete. The NovaRace design/build team includes our partners:
    NovaRace LLC (Jay Novak, overall design)
    Piontek Engineering (Dave Piontek, chassis design/build)
    Hurley Racing Products (Mike Devins, body design/build)
    LincSpeed Design (Clark Lincoln, body design)
    Every member of our design/build team has worked tirelessly over the last year to ensure that the design of this new car has taken advantage of every technology available.

    Solid models of every single component have been completed and this includes the body of the car. The design of the body has been developed using the best available solid modeling and CFD technologies. The resulting body is a very significant improvement on our 2007 Runoffs winning F500 and our 2010 ARRC winning F600 car in every respect.

    The chassis design of the new Nova F600 Blade has been greatly simplified such that the setup of the car is extremely robust but is still very tunable. The Nova Blade has simple adjustments for all important tuning factors such as wheel rates, corner weights, ride control, ride height and roll couple distribution. The new Blade will tune and adjust just like a conventional open wheel car.

    Simplicity of maintenance was a very important factor in the design of the Nova F600 Blade. One of the things that is extremely important to the club racer is the time available to maintain and to prep the car. The design of the new Nova F600 Blade has been focused on improving this very important factor.

    The driver package of the new Nova F600 Blade is the best in the business. Many of you who have sat in our previous cars have commented on how roomy the package was. Well the new car is just as good and will certainly fit the bigger racers out there and still make minimum weight.

    Nova Blade specifications:
    Wheelbase - maximum 80”
    Width – maximum 55.0”
    Weight – 650 lbs ready to race with .083" steel belly pan.
    Chassis – large section tubular steel construction with a welded steel belly pan, aluminum belly pan optional.
    Brakes – 8” diameter floating front rotors 9.5” diameter floating rear rotor. Wilwood calipers with Nova forged calipers optional.
    Wheels – Keizer aluminum wheels with forged 4 bolt centers. Front 10” x 7”. Rear 10” x 8.5”.
    Center lock wheels optional.
    Bodywork – CFD developed multi-piece fiberglass composite body with structural Kevlar anti-intrusion panels. Carbon fiber body for lighter weight optional.
    Engine mounts for late model Suzuki GSX-R600. Optional mounts for other engines as requested.

    The first 5 customers will receive their cars as roller assemblies at a cost of $22,000 plus shipping. Add your late model Suzuki GSX-R600cc motorcycle engine with wiring, hook up the cooling package and go racing. The Nova F600 Blade will be the best value in open wheel racing, you simply cannot go faster and have more fun for your $$$$. Get your order in now. Call to discuss options, deposits and delivery.

    Dealer inquiries are invited.

    Contacts:
    National Sales:
    Dave Piontek, Piontek Engineering.
    Davepiontek2@gmail.com , 810-991-1148

    Dealer and Technical inquiries:
    Jay Novak, NovaRace LLC
    http://www.novaracecars.com/
    jnovak@novaracecars.com
    313-445-4047

    Stay tuned for many more pics as the build of the cars progresses.
    _________________
    Thanks ... Jay Novak
    SCCA member for 45 year
    Last edited by Jnovak; 03.01.13 at 2:13 PM.

  2. #2
    Contributing Member glenn cooper's Avatar
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    Default We have a new

    BFTB Cham-peen. Looks sweet!

  3. #3
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    Default

    What does the "Better Fabrics Testing Bureau" have to do with anything?

  4. #4
    Contributing Member GBugg's Avatar
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    Default

    That looks AWESOME! Well done, sir. Well done!
    George Bugg
    -----------------------------
    NovaKar
    F600

  5. #5
    Senior Member cooleyjb's Avatar
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    Default

    Sorry for the dumb question as I haven't been able to keep up with the 500/600 rulings. Does this thing have a suspension like FC/FF or like the F500 chassis.

    Great work all of you BTW. It looks awesome.

  6. #6
    Contributing Member Jnovak's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cooleyjb View Post
    Sorry for the dumb question as I haven't been able to keep up with the 500/600 rulings. Does this thing have a suspension like FC/FF or like the F500 chassis.

    Great work all of you BTW. It looks awesome.
    Joe, it has suspension that meets the F600/F500 rules in that it has an elastomer springing system. However we are sure that we have the most effective suspension that can be accomplished within the rules. The car has very easily adjustable wheel rates as well as other adjustable systems on the chassis.

    Thanks ... Jay Novak

  7. #7
    Senior Member cooleyjb's Avatar
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    Thanks Jay,

    Something like that is very tempting.

  8. #8
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    Sounds awesome I have high hopes for this and the class.. F500 did nothing for me, but bike engines? Heck yeah!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiago Santos View Post
    Sounds awesome I have high hopes for this and the class.. F500 did nothing for me, but bike engines? Heck yeah!
    Agreed! It was the CVT that I didn't like. 2 strokes are cool if they aren't screaming at a constant rpm the whole time!

  10. #10
    Contributing Member Nicholas Belling's Avatar
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    Default

    Simply awesome !!!
    Nicholas Belling
    email@nicholasbelling.com
    Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada

  11. #11
    Classifieds Super License racerdad2's Avatar
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    Geez ! Now, one more item on the bucket list !
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

  12. #12
    Contributing Member farrout's Avatar
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    Jay - That is fantastic looking. Hope you bring it to TGPR this April for a little track time.
    Craig Farr
    2006 Stohr WF1 P2
    FARROUT Racing

  13. #13
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    All the components: straight axle, rubber puck rocker arm suspension and, initially, the lowest cost snowmobile drivetrain, were brought into the F440/500 ruleset back in 1984 with the intension to have the lowest cost formula car that would run as fast as the FF's do. Unfortunately, the then lowest cost drivetrain - the snowmobile/CVT drivetrain - was not welcomed by the majority of the racing community.
    They let us know their unhappiness in the paddock at every race for over 30 years.
    Our race entries started a long downward trend during this same time period. We decided that enough is enough. So, in 2009, the McMahans discovered that the 600cc MC drivetrain was now a lower cost drivetrain than the snowmobile drivetrain and
    converted a KBS Mk.5 into a F600 in Atlanta and the racing community's attitude changed 180 degrees almost overnight, especially with the sweet sound the 600cc MC makes at 13K rpm. Jay's new F600 is the latest iteration in our ongoing development. The Formula 600 Challenge Series is our next step in our very long journey toward national classification. Along the way, the BOD made a policy statement in the Fall of 2011 that they want an entry level MC formula car class. The time is near.
    Come join us for the best bang for the buck formula car racing possible.

    Jim

  14. #14
    Senior Member Mark_Silverberg's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by jim murphy View Post
    . Unfortunately, the then lowest cost drivetrain - the snowmobile/CVT drivetrain - was not welcomed by the majority of the racing community.

    They let us know their unhappiness in the paddock at every race for over 30 years.
    .

    Jim

    Jim, I think some of the sentiment towards F440 started with the earlier cars. I think the first year for F440 was 78 or 79. The early cars had very crude suspension - while that was soon rectified they did not eliminate that early stigma amongst the old timers that was hard to overcome even when the suspension was revised. I remember an early F440 driver telling me that he was so bruised after taking a F440 to driver's school at mid america raceways that he had difficulty sleeping for a week. That conversation made me ignore the cars for about 30 years.

    The two stroke engine and CVT was also disliked even by the non racer / non technically adept. After watching the F500's at Road America Turn 5 one year my wife said "who would want to drive a car that sounds like a weed eater" Yes, not a rational choice - but you have to like what you are going to drive.

    I think the 600cc motorcyle engine is making some people realize that the overall F500 chassis concept deserves another look - and no one can complain about the sound now.
    Mark Silverberg - SE Michigan
    Lynx B FV & Royale RP3 FF
    240Z Vintage Production Car
    PCR, Kosmic CRG & Birel karts

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    The cars were no fun without suspension and the rubber puck suspension was the only way for the cars to get national classification in 1984.

    Thank you for taking another look and please spread the word,
    Jim

  16. #16
    Senior Member Mark Filip's Avatar
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    Default F600 should be

    I think F600 should have been a F1000 car without wings and a 600 bike engine, limited electronics and no paddal shifters. 1 car 2 classes when you learned how to drive the 600, throw on wings and swap the engine to 1000.
    Mark Filip

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    Quote Originally Posted by fvracer27 View Post
    I think F600 should have been a F1000 car without wings and a 600 bike engine, limited electronics and no paddal shifters. 1 car 2 classes when you learned how to drive the 600, throw on wings and swap the engine to 1000.
    The problem with that approach was cost. When you add shocks/springs, CV joints, etc. for a fully independent suspension, the net cost for a track-ready car goes WAY up, as does the weight. There is a roughly 400 lb difference between F600 and FB, IIRC, so I don't think you could easily get to the same sort of "swappable" car that the DB-6 was.

    What we really have in F500/F600 is a suspension design that is in between a shifter kart and FF - and that's a really good "sweet spot" for low-cost road racing, IMO. I've driven all of these three, and I have to say that the F500 was/is a real kick to drive. In fact, I liked driving it much better than my Crossle; others may have a different view, but I can guarantee you that you can't drive one of these cars fast unless you're willing to hang it out on the edge - and that's fun!
    Marshall Mauney

    Milwaukee Region

  18. #18
    Contributing Member flat tappet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marshall Mauney View Post
    The problem with that approach was cost. When you add shocks/springs, CV joints, etc. for a fully independent suspension, the net cost for a track-ready car goes WAY up, as does the weight. There is a roughly 400 lb difference between F600 and FB, IIRC, so I don't think you could easily get to the same sort of "swappable" car that the DB-6 was.

    What we really have in F500/F600 is a suspension design that is in between a shifter kart and FF - and that's a really good "sweet spot" for low-cost road racing, IMO. I've driven all of these three, and I have to say that the F500 was/is a real kick to drive. In fact, I liked driving it much better than my Crossle; others may have a different view, but I can guarantee you that you can't drive one of these cars fast unless you're willing to hang it out on the edge - and that's fun!
    As usual.....a sage comment from Marshall. As the person that now owns his 2002 F500 Red Devil and someone(like all of us here) who constantly reads about diminished participation at SCCA races due to the overall cost of entry fees,lodging,travel and equipment expenses, I have to ponder why folks continue to disparage F500's? There is a post in the F500 classifieds here for a nice looking 2001 Red Devil,appears to be well equipped and in good condition for a $5500 asking price!!

    Many folks cannot spend $20,000 to $60,000 on a race car, raise a family,stay married....and race. Or, on the other end.....be retired. I think that we should be glad to have as many types of LOCOST race cars(Miatas were in the beginning, 1st gen Mazda RX7 12a's can still be had quite inexpensively......but the parts supply is drying up) Formula VEE's are great cars but they seem to be creeping up in price due to the demand for a car less expensive to own and operate than a FF.

    I have broad shoulders....and the comments about the sound/smell of F500's doesn't bother me at all(at least until I get stones thrown at me in the pits). But what about the young prospective racer that comes on this forum.....and all he reads is the negatives about the only class Formula car he can afford to race?

  19. #19
    Not an aerodynamicist Wren's Avatar
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    To try to get this thread back on track:

    Looks great Jay. I really enjoy looking at Clark's work and I am sure the car will be great. It is really impressive to think of the talent and experience of the people who put their time in to club racing.

  20. #20
    Contributing Member Jnovak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flat tappet View Post
    As usual.....a sage comment from Marshall. As the person that now owns his 2002 F500 Red Devil and someone(like all of us here) who constantly reads about diminished participation at SCCA races due to the overall cost of entry fees,lodging,travel and equipment expenses, I have to ponder why folks continue to disparage F500's? There is a post in the F500 classifieds here for a nice looking 2001 Red Devil,appears to be well equipped and in good condition for a $5500 asking price!!

    Many folks cannot spend $20,000 to $60,000 on a race car, raise a family,stay married....and race. Or, on the other end.....be retired. I think that we should be glad to have as many types of LOCOST race cars(Miatas were in the beginning, 1st gen Mazda RX7 12a's can still be had quite inexpensively......but the parts supply is drying up) Formula VEE's are great cars but they seem to be creeping up in price due to the demand for a car less expensive to own and operate than a FF.

    I have broad shoulders....and the comments about the sound/smell of F500's doesn't bother me at all(at least until I get stones thrown at me in the pits). But what about the young prospective racer that comes on this forum.....and all he reads is the negatives about the only class Formula car he can afford to race?
    You are absolutely correct Bruce in that a used f500 will get you road racing at a lower cost than any other open wheel class except for perhaps a used Vee. However even the entries in F500 have been going down year after year with very few new racers going with F500 . My hope is that the F600s will bring in some new blood, particularly the karters.

    Of course I am still a very big fan of F500 as I have been building and racing those beasts since 1984, but times they are changing.

    Thanks ... Jay Novak

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    Contributing Member flat tappet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jnovak View Post
    You are absolutely correct Bruce in that a used f500 will get you road racing at a lower cost than any other open wheel class except for perhaps a used Vee. However even the entries in F500 have been going down year after year with very few new racers going with F500 . My hope is that the F600s will bring in some new blood, particularly the karters.

    Of course I am still a very big fan of F500 as I have been building and racing those beasts since 1984, but times they are changing.

    Thanks ... Jay Novak
    Jay...don't get me wrong. You have done a great job!!....and a beautiful car. If I could afford one I would have it today. They do sound great....and shift great to. I fully support everyone with an F600!!

  22. #22
    Contributing Member GBugg's Avatar
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    Jay -
    I don't see any radiator cooling inlets. I know you were hoping to get enough from a single radiator, so maybe there's an inlet on the oposite side pod?
    George Bugg
    -----------------------------
    NovaKar
    F600

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    Contributing Member Jnovak's Avatar
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    We have several deposits and our plan is to deliver all of the first run of cars this coming June..

    Thanks for all the interest ... Jay Novak

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    Quote Originally Posted by GBugg View Post
    Jay -
    I don't see any radiator cooling inlets. I know you were hoping to get enough from a single radiator, so maybe there's an inlet on the oposite side pod?

    Yes, I, too, am curious as to the cooling inlets for both the radiator and the critical oil cooler.

    Jim

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    Contributing Member Jnovak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jim murphy View Post
    Yes, I, too, am curious as to the cooling inlets for both the radiator and the critical oil cooler.

    Jim
    I have even had phone calls on this guys. We can't show you everything. Some things need to be kept under wraps, so I guess you will have to stay tuned. Come June everyone will know.

    Thanks ... Jay Novak

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    Contributing Member GBugg's Avatar
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    lol!!

    I'll probably only see them if they are on the back bumper! But I can't wait to see it on track and in person!
    George Bugg
    -----------------------------
    NovaKar
    F600

  27. #27
    Contributing Member Jnovak's Avatar
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    Parts are being made. This is the front upright.
    Steering arm and other mono-ball connector are bolt on.



    Brake pedal



    Frame fixtures are being made now.

    I will keep posting as time permits.

    Thanks ... Jay Novak

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim murphy View Post
    All the components: straight axle, rubber puck rocker arm suspension and, initially, the lowest cost snowmobile drivetrain, were brought into the F440/500 ruleset back in 1984 with the intension to have the lowest cost formula car that would run as fast as the FF's do. Unfortunately, the then lowest cost drivetrain - the snowmobile/CVT drivetrain - was not welcomed by the majority of the racing community.
    They let us know their unhappiness in the paddock at every race for over 30 years.
    Our race entries started a long downward trend during this same time period. We decided that enough is enough. So, in 2009, the McMahans discovered that the 600cc MC drivetrain was now a lower cost drivetrain than the snowmobile drivetrain and
    converted a KBS Mk.5 into a F600 in Atlanta and the racing community's attitude changed 180 degrees almost overnight, especially with the sweet sound the 600cc MC makes at 13K rpm. Jay's new F600 is the latest iteration in our ongoing development. The Formula 600 Challenge Series is our next step in our very long journey toward national classification. Along the way, the BOD made a policy statement in the Fall of 2011 that they want an entry level MC formula car class. The time is near.
    Come join us for the best bang for the buck formula car racing possible.

    Jim

    Lets get the facts straight Murph, it was I Mr Reinhardt that discovered in 2005, that MC driverain was possible and more affordable, and faster, and just makes sense for these cars. Actually, it goes back to some heated emails between me and Jay back about 2000 or so. I find it funny that Jay is leading the way with the F600's, as he was deadly opposed to it back when....
    That being said, the McMahan's are probably the foremost experts in these cars, having more miles on them and converting probably the most amount of chassis...
    Jay, nice looking rendering, you should put up some Solidworks renderings of the chassis and bodywork.....

    CR

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    Contributing Member Jnovak's Avatar
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    Mr. Reinhardt, the picture in the press release is actually a SolidWorks model saved as a .jpg with the color, driver and decals added.

    I agree that you were certainly one of the first proponents of the F600 concept and that I was initially against the 600cc motors in F500. However you and many others convinced me that the 600 MC engine was the viable option for the future. Is there something wrong with changing your mind?

    I agree that Clint and his Dad have done a fantastic job with their efforts, however I believe that Dave Piontek and I have done our fair share of making F600 a viable option. Here is a list of our F600 cars we have built from scratch or converted and kits we have sold.

    1. Rakavon - original owner Jay Novak, now owned by Ken Mascia
    2. Chris Ross - KBS complete rebuild and conversion
    3. George Bugg - KBS conversion kit
    4. Carl Wassersleben - KBS conversion kit
    5. Randy Lynn - NovaKar conversion kit
    6. Ken Van Horn - NovaKar conversion kit
    7. Ted Simmonds - NovaKar conversion kit
    8. Fred Edwards - complete build of Maverick conversion
    9. Tom Edwards - Maverick conversion with all work completed except suspension assembly.

    We have also sold:
    5 complete 50mm axle assemblies for use on KBS conversions.
    14 billet oil pan kits for Suzuki engines
    21 inlet restrictor kits

    I have shown my SolidWorks models of the new Nova F600 Blade to our customers as well as those who have expressed serious interest in the car. I see no need to divulge all of the new ideas that we have come up with to make it a great race car, particularly on the internet.

    When we deliver the first of our new F600 cars in June we will be happy to show them to the entire world or the few that may be interested.

    Thanks ... Jay Novak

  30. #30
    Contributing Member Rick Ross's Avatar
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    Jay,

    Congrats.....very nice work.

    Can you comment on how the CFD analysis was conducted? What software package was used? Any plans for track and/or wind tunnel tests to validate the CFD results?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jnovak View Post
    Mr. Reinhardt, the picture in the press release is actually a SolidWorks model saved as a .jpg with the color, driver and decals added.

    I agree that you were certainly one of the first proponents of the F600 concept and that I was initially against the 600cc motors in F500. However you and many others convinced me that the 600 MC engine was the viable option for the future. Is there something wrong with changing your mind?
    Yes I understand that was a Solidworks rendering, albeit, a pretty vague one!!!! I'm wondering if the entire F600 industry would be turned on it's head with your innovations....

    Oh yah, you are the entire F600 industry!!!!

    I don't know if I had anything to do with changing your view on the MC powerplants, I believe the SCCA had more to do with it when the ONLY innovation in about 20 years of F500 was promptly outlawed after it's first outing.... I'm talking about the Rakovan....

    Glad to see that these cars are still being developed....

    CR

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    Contributing Member Jnovak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Ross View Post
    Jay,

    Congrats.....very nice work.

    Can you comment on how the CFD analysis was conducted? What software package was used? Any plans for track and/or wind tunnel tests to validate the CFD results?
    Thanks Rick, the CFD software package that I am using is a beta test CFD software package that is being developed by an aerodynamicist that I worked with when I was at Ford Racing. At this moment it is not comercially available but probably will be within a year. Car # 1 will be instrumented with strain gauged pushrods so that we can correlate the model with real data.

    We actually re-analyzed (CFD) the Rakavon design before starting on the new body design for the F600 in order to correlate the new CFD model with the actual data that we had from the Rakavon. At Road Americal the Rakavon made X downforce and Y aero drag (actual load data for Df and calculated aero drag). The CFD package correlated very nicely for the Df but was off on the aero drag. The software designer is working on that aspect of the correlation. Based on our current CFD results we are very confident that the new body is a very decent improvement for both downforce and drag.

    Thanks for your interest ... Jay Novak

  33. #33
    Contributing Member Jnovak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ny_racer_xxx View Post
    Yes I understand that was a Solidworks rendering, albeit, a pretty vague one!!!! I'm wondering if the entire F600 industry would be turned on it's head with your innovations....

    Oh yah, you are the entire F600 industry!!!!

    I don't know if I had anything to do with changing your view on the MC powerplants, I believe the SCCA had more to do with it when the ONLY innovation in about 20 years of F500 was promptly outlawed after it's first outing.... I'm talking about the Rakovan....

    Glad to see that these cars are still being developed....

    CR
    Thanks Chris, vague on purpose as we want to keep much of the details underwraps until we show the car publically. Of course our goal is to produce a new and better race car and we are confident that we are going to do that. The car is a MUCH redesign of the Rakavon concept with much simpler setup and maintainance as well as taking advantage of all we have learned in the last 5 years. We are also planning on an F500 version of the car to make sure that we are part of F500 from that perspective too. Of course we need a customer to make that happen and right now all of our deposits are for F600s.

    Thanks ... Jay Novak

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jnovak View Post
    Of course we need a customer to make that happen and right now all of our deposits are for F600s.
    If that doesn't tell you where the interest is not, I don't know what does.....

    Good luck with the new design Jay....

    CR

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    Quote Originally Posted by ny_racer_xxx View Post
    Lets get the facts straight Murph, it was I Mr Reinhardt that discovered in 2005, that MC driverain was possible and more affordable, and faster, and just makes sense for these cars. Actually, it goes back to some heated emails between me and Jay back about 2000 or so. I find it funny that Jay is leading the way with the F600's, as he was deadly opposed to it back when....
    That being said, the McMahan's are probably the foremost experts in these cars, having more miles on them and converting probably the most amount of chassis...
    Jay, nice looking rendering, you should put up some Solidworks renderings of the chassis and bodywork.....

    CR
    And then they were a few of us way back in the early 90's, as the Kawasaki 440 engine supply was drying up, that proposed using the then popular 750cc bike engines as the replacement power plant, however the majority didn't see the light.
    Scott Woodruff
    83 RT5 Ralt/Scooteria Suzuki Formula S

    (former) F440/F5/FF/FC/FA
    65 FFR Cobra Roadster 4.6 DOHC

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    Quote Originally Posted by formulasuper View Post
    And then they were a few of us way back in the early 90's, as the Kawasaki 440 engine supply was drying up, that proposed using the then popular 750cc bike engines as the replacement power plant, however the majority didn't see the light.
    I remember that. The MC 750 was more expensive - and way more powerful - than the proposed 2 stroke snowmobile engines. The later MC 600 changed all that.

    Jim

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim murphy View Post
    The later MC 600 changed all that.

    Jim
    Exactly, so like I said, the 600 idea was mine, and it wasn't just pulled out of the air. I chose the 600 because the HP output is about right, the size is about right, the weight is right there, and 600's are the most popular production road bikes there are. Also the fact that they have been used for years in sprint cars. The 750's would have been too big a motor, and obviously too much power...

    I know I'm not the first person to think about putting a motorcycle engine into a race car, I am the first to think about and install a 600 into a F500 car.....

    CR

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    Contributing Member iamuwere's Avatar
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    Default Announcing the new Nova F600 Blade

    Cr you are good at seeing what is in everyone else's head....glad you thought of it for all of us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iamuwere View Post
    Cr you are good at seeing what is in everyone else's head....glad you thought of it for all of us.

    Yah, kinda like the invention everybody thought about, but somebody else invented.....


    Somebody had to have some Cojones to go against the two smokers, they are too stupid of a powerplant to have that much chassis, they belong where the snow is deep, and the Moose are nervous!!!!

    CR

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