Solo Vees to C-Mod?

[Robert Puertas]

Interesting proposal in the July Fastrack...

http://scca.cdn.racersites.com/prod/...-july-solo.pdf

- The following package of class and rule change proposals, affecting various sections in Appendix A, has been recommended
by the MAC and is published here for member review and comment. This set of changes moves the Solo Vee cars from
F Modified into C Modified, and makes preparation allowance upgrades which have been requested by members to help
improve the competitiveness of the SV cars:
- Move subsection B in its entirety from under Modified Class F into Modified Class C.
- Move subsections C, D, and E from under Modified Class F into Modified Class C.
- Remove the “Solo Vee” under subsection F under Modified Class F, and create a corresponding item under the Solo
Vee rules as moved into Modified Class C.
- Under Solo Vee (as moved) Change C.2.f to read: “f) One or two two-barrel carburetor(s) of any origin may be used.
One-barrel carburetor(s) will only be allowed as permitted by the applicable GCR.”
- Under Solo Vee (as moved) change E.1 and E.2 to read as follows:
“1. Increase compression up to and including 10:1 ratio with OE bore and stroke. Fuel injection is prohibited. Valve
size may be increased to a maximum of 44 mm intake and 37.5 mm exhaust. Port location may not be changed
from OE stock. Machining of any type in the combustion chamber such as, but not limited to, valve unshrouding
is prohibited. Valve guide center shall remain OE stock. OE stock heads shall be used. Any single carburetor
(regardless of the number of venturis) is permitted. Multiple carburetion is restricted to a maximum of two 44mm
carburetors with 28 mm venturis. If a balance tube is used between manifold runners, it shall be restricted to one
1/2-inch ID pipe. Any intake manifold not having a plenum chamber is permitted. Minimum weight is 1000 lbs.
2. Increase bore up to and including 94 mm maximum per cylinder, total displacement of 1915 cc. Machining to
allow the installation of the cylinders is permitted. No other combustion chamber machining such as, but not limited
to, unshrouding of the valves, is permitted. Valve guide centers must remain OE stock. Increased displacementengines up to 1915 cc are restricted to maximum valve sizes 44 mm intake and 37.5 mm exhaust. Port location may
not be changed from OE stock. OE stock heads shall be used, however, alternate VW heads may be substituted.
A maximum compression ratio of 9:1 is permitted. Any single or dual two-barrel carburetor may be used. Minimum
weight: 1000 lbs.” (#6804, 6805, 6806, 6807, 7325, 7454)

[chrisw52]

what is the average weight of a solo fee compared to a FF?

same power to weight ratio?

[Robert Puertas]

Solo Vee is 1000 lbs. with driver according to the current Solo rulebook.
1600cc air-cooled VW motor...

I'd guess they could get similar power to weight.

Biggest advantage they have is they can run any wheel & tire, along with a LSD.
OTOH, they are stuck with that Type 1 H-beam front suspension...

[mwizard]

what is the average weight of a solo fee compared to a FF?

same power to weight ratio?

Probably can do a better hp to weight ratio with bigger valves, 2 bigger carbs and up to 1915cc. FF wins on suspension, I hope.
Mark

[mwood]

The VW front suspension is the limiting factor, I'd agree. But, given how smooth our surfaces are and the tire section width advantage, it may not prove to be that big of an issue.

Purely upside/downside, I think the MAC hasn't thought this one through. There are very few Solo Vee's left, as the F500's have chased them off, and CM has been experiencing better growth than any other modified class in Solo. If the Vee's aren't competitive, there's no benefit, if they are, you have potentially disenfranchised the growing number of Ford guys.

[GChambers]

Bad idea, IMO.

Mod classes with two different types of cars don't work. Too many performance allowances are required to make them competitive. It's that way in BM and was that way in FM when the Solo Vee was in that class.

Also, if the Vee becomes the car to have, all the FFs become obsolete. The Solo Vees are obsolete now already. How many of them are even out there? Is there more of them than old FF cars? Why take the chance?

BTW, I'll take bigger tires over a better suspension any time. Any suspension can be made to perform well. You just gotta make it stiff enough that it doesn't move.

[chrisw52]

Bad idea, IMO.

Mod classes with two different types of cars don't work. Too many performance allowances are required to make them competitive. It's that way in BM and was that way in FM when the Solo Vee was in that class.

Also, if the Vee becomes the car to have, all the FFs become obsolete. The Solo Vees are obsolete now already. How many of them are even out there? Is there more of them than old FF cars? Why take the chance?

BTW, I'll take bigger tires over a better suspension any time. Any suspension can be made to perform well. You just gotta make it stiff enough that it doesn't move.

I agree. I am interested in running a CM FF because it looks like a nice way to reduce my expense's. I currently run Street Mod and that fast track just convinced me to leave that class. SM is turning into the new Prepared category. This whole proposal throws my whole purchase into question..

[DougW]

A bad idea for all the reasons you folks mention above. Please write a letter to SEB telling them you think it is a bad idea and why!

[Robert Puertas]

Write your letters people!

http://www.sebscca.com/

[chrisw52]

Write your letters people!

http://www.sebscca.com/

done.

[DougW]

Geez...This irritates me. I moved to CM for the fun, the relative low cost and high speed, and the rules stability. All of these things are causing the class to have a resurgence. The availability of the Fit will help this. What were they thinking? Throwing a highly modified (i.e. non GCR legal) car into the mix is a very poor idea. Unlimited wheel and tire? LSD? Grrrrrrrr.

As soon as I feel civil again my letter will go out.

[loudes13]

How many years ago did they throw the solo vee out of CM? There's not many left, why not let them die as an also-ran in FM?

[mwood]

How many years ago did they throw the solo vee out of CM? There's not many left, why not let them die as an also-ran in FM?

Evidently, there's enough of them to write enough letters to the MAC to get this idea into play...to me, it feels like GP, all over again.

[ewcmr2]

Why not just give the FVees the added allowances and leave them in FMod?

[Mark Sirota]

This did get discussed every once in a while when I was on the SEB (and I was the MAC liaison for much of that time), and every time we (wisely, IMHO) shot it down because the Solo Vees were a dying breed anyway and there was no good reason to muck up a successful CM class, which at the time was enjoying great competition between FF and S2.

I realize I've been out of the sport for quite a while now, so someone please tell me -- what exactly is the problem they're trying to solve here? Is CM participation down so there's a need to prop it up? I can't come up with any other logical explanation, but I'm sure it's out there...

[GChambers]

CM numbers are down a bit but on the rise. New cars are coming onto the grid and new drivers are getting involved. Rules stability has been a part of the attraction. It was for me.

I've posted this in other places but I'll leave it here too. The current SEB seems to be like Congress. The needed rules/laws are already there. They create problems that don't exist to find solutions to make themselves stay relevant.

It's just sad to me that guys can't drive their cars around in a parking lot without someone feeling the need to muck it all up. Why can't they just leave it alone and let us go about having our fun?

I'm about done with the SCCA and all their ****. I could buy a lot of pimpy mountain bikes for what I have invested in my race car and what I'd spend going to events.

[Dick R.]

I just sent the following to the SEB:


Dear SEB

I oppose moving Solo Vees to CM. (I have competed in CM since 1992 in the same 1985 Van Diemen).

You will "screw up" the class if this proposal is implemented.

CM is currently enjoying a resurgence in popularity thanks to rules stability and well known performance potential of FF's. Solo Vees, especially with more permitted modifications, are a total unknown and therefore "scary" for people considering entering CM. The popularity of the Honda engine option for FF is likely to make CM even more attractive either because "new guys of any age" want the current technology or more older chassis become "low priced" simply because they do not lend themselves to Honda conversions which are becoming very popular for road racing.

This proposal, since being published yesterday evening, is already discouraging potential new CM participants as well as members who recently purchased FF's for CM. Both new, potential, and "old timers" like CM for the rules stability and the well defined performance potential of any FF.

Please DO NOT implement this proposal!

Thanks!

Dick

[F five hunj]

Why not just give the FVees the added allowances and leave them in FMod?

That's been done. When the SV community only fields 4 national entries in a year, it's kind of hard to evaluate whether they were effective or not. Look at the results.... when you get raw timed by HS, it's not the car or the allowances you don't have...

They 5+ inches wider than F5, and 200 lbs heavier. They're probably a better fit in CM than FM. Look at what they just stuck in FM....LEGENDS CARS! WTF

[DougW]

I really don't think they are a better fit in CM. CM is populated by GCR legal cars that have a fairly contained ruleset. Solo Vees are a miss mash of rules and allowances that never seem to satisfy the current crop of vee owners. Is there a truly National level effort amongst the Vee crowd? Someone who has put the time in to fully develop the car and with a top notch driver? I ask that as an honest question, not throwing stones.

In any event, all the allowances given to Vees to help them be competitive with the 500's make them a poor fit in CM. Unlimited tires? Seriously. Just say no.

[DougW]

Look at the results.... when you get raw timed by HS, it's not the car or the allowances you don't have...

Look at what they just stuck in FM....LEGENDS CARS! WTF

Yes and yes...

Maybe Legends Cars and SV's in WTFM?

[Robert Puertas]

Legends cars and GCR Vees to GP!

(edited based on the post below) :-)

[FVEE56]

For years I ran my GCR Formula Vee in Solo events. I will not modify it just for Solo as I also Road Race the car. Bring back a class for GCR, 1200 cc Formula Vee and in a few years it will be a good sized class. It is insane to think you can run with the F 500 of F/F with a swing axle trans and a Volkswagon front beam. If you want to spend money and modify an FV race in AM.
Bring back GCR FV for Solo! (will never happen)

[chrisw52]

For years I ran my GCR Formula Vee in Solo events. I will not modify it just for Solo as I also Road Race the car. Bring back a class for GCR, 1200 cc Formula Vee and in a few years it will be a good sized class. It is insane to think you can run with the F 500 of F/F with a swing axle trans and a Volkswagon front beam. If you want to spend money and modify an FV race in AM.
Bring back GCR FV for Solo! (will never happen)

I am glad to hear that the solo V guys agree. Hopefully the SCCa will listen to their members and do the right thing for the Modified class's (all of them).

[Bob VanDyke]

Why not just give the Vee's there own class - VM. Aren't there already more than thousand Solo classes so everyone can get a trophy anyway?

[Harts]

jeezz i just got my car last summer and now they want to muck the class up, i just learned how to work the gears real good ,, letter sent[

QUOTE=Robert Puertas;349574]Write your letters people!

http://www.sebscca.com/[/QUOTE]

[Scootin159]

I sent my letter in. Basically I feel CM is a better fit than FM for them, but either way, they'll either be "also rans" or they'll need significant additional allowances. Significant allowances is a dangerous game though, as it threatens the already strong CM class if made an overdog - and any guesses at parity are pretty wild guesses right now as IMHO no real SV's have been built and run with top drivers in top events.

As such, I suggested that GCR-legal FV's be given a new class (GM) with only minimal allowances over true GCR-legal cars (basically the normal safety gear delete's) - with the new class being "provisional" at first, and then re-evaluated in a few years for either "National" status or dropped based on participation numbers.

[mwood]

Sent my letter, too.

Honestly, it isn't that I'm "afraid" of the Vees joining the party, so much as I just can't see any credible upside scenario to warrant taking on the risk of disrupting a mod class that actually works.

[-pru-]

Here's my letter to SEB on the subject :

To whom it may concern,

I am responding to the following proposal as published in the July 2012 issue of FastTrack:

“The following package of class and rule change proposals, affecting various sections in Appendix A, has been recommended by the MAC and is published here for member review and comment. This set of changes moves the Solo Vee cars from F Modified into C Modified, and makes preparation allowance upgrades which have been requested by members to help improve the competitiveness of the SV cars (sic)”

Summary
~~~~~~~
As a former C Modified (CM) and D Modified (DM) SoloVee owner/competitor and a current CM Formula Ford owner/competitor, I am not in favor of this proposal as I believe it offers no benefit to those who choose to run GCR-compliant cars in CM.

Supporting Argument
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As noted in the first sentence of the class rules, CM is currently a “GCR-compliant” class:

“Modified Class C allows the following club Racing GCR-compliant cars:
Spec Racer Ford (SRF), Formula F (FF), & Sports 2000 (S2).”

As the SoloVee is not GCR-compliant, I see no reason or benefit to introduce this car classification to CM.

Further, the CM class rules include the following statement:

“The purpose of these rules is to maintain the value of these cars for Club Racing and therefore their market value, and to prevent special Solo®-only (sic) vehicles.”

That is, the SoloVee, by its very make-up, violates the basic intent of CM.

FV1200 / FST1600 Proposal
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Finally, I would like to add my voice to those who ask the MAC consider re-classing both the Formula Vee (FV1200) and the Formula First (FST1600). That is, moving these CGR-compliant cars from F Modified (FM) to a class in which they are better suited. Please note that, as part of the FV1200 and FST1600 relocations, I am NOT advocating any changes that would make these cars non-GCR-complaint.

Conclusion
~~~~~~~~
Again, it is my belief that both the Solo and Club Racing communities are best served when the FF, S2, SRF, FV1200, and FST1600 remain GCR-compliant for Solo competition.

Regards,

Chris Pruett
SVR/SCCA
179344
85 Swift DB1

[mwood]

Here's what I went with...quickly written while eating a sandwich



[FONT=Arial]All-[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Regarding the proposal to move Solo Vees currently classed in FM to CM, I am opposed. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]CM has been the one modified class with increased visibility and interest over the last couple of years. The "value proposition" has centered on real race cars/low barriers to entry or cost/equality across the various manufacturers represented and perceived rules stability that would maintain those qualities.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Introducing Solo Vees, with enhanced modifications and unknown performance capability, is inherently disruptive to the above dynamic and represents much more risk than benefit to the class.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]First, look at the potential upside, which I would guess starts with bringing old Solo Vees back to the sport. How many are really out there? Are they willing to spend the relatively large amount of money required to take advantage of the proposed modification enhancements? My sense is that there are very (very) few cars left and the owners are unlikely to care about being given the opportunity to spend $4-5,000 on them to try and run with the Fords.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]The next upside scenario is looking at potential new Solo Vee builds. Starting with a well used, vintage vee (around $2-3,000 when I bought mine a number of years ago), modifications allowed under the proposal will easily require 4-5X that initial investment. So, for more money than a turn key Formula Ford capable of winning, today, at a national level, you get to build a car that may or may not be competitive? Why would anyone do so?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]The next question I have is what type of evidence does the [/FONT][FONT=Arial]MAC[/FONT][FONT=Arial] have that the intended modifications to be allowed Solo Vees result in any type of parity? Follow on question, how proactive would the [/FONT][FONT=Arial]MAC[/FONT][FONT=Arial] want to be in managing that piece? [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]If CM was on the decline or "on the bubble", I'd have a different take...but, it isn't and I don't. Yes, I'm biased, having joined CM within the last six months, but what possible upside is there in messing with this mod class, one that actually works?[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial] [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Thanks for hearing me out and for all of your hard work on the [/FONT][FONT=Arial]MAC[/FONT][FONT=Arial].[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial]Mike[/FONT]

[Darth Vee]

Gentlemen,
The history of the making of the FM Vee has made the car an exspensive machine. I think that is one of the reasons why there are not too many of us in the class. The other reason is the difference in size and weight, hard to reach parity because of this. They are two different cars, the lighter smaller car will have the advantage. The Vee drivers know this so why come out and be beat. The Vees that are there competing like to drive their cars and enjoy the Solo racing. We have tried to have our own class but we have been turned down many times. The size and weight of the cars are more of a match than what we have now. That is the main reason we want this move. Even if we match HP to weight, you all will have the advantage and besides, we are not national competitive drivers. On a side note, I like the sound of the Fords. The snowmobiles, not so much. I know I will enjoy racing with you all, the Fords are a neat car. It will be fun to watch you guys. Thanks.

[Dick R.]

The size and weight of the cars are more of a match than what we have now. That is the main reason we want this move. Even if we match HP to weight, you all will have the advantage and besides, we are not national competitive drivers. Thanks.

Good input. Question - can you run in B Mod with the prep you have or would like to have? If so it would get you into one of the best sounding groups (a variety of engines many of which are now 1000cc motorcycle). This wouldn't even require a rule/classing change if the BMod rules already provide that option. They are of course even faster than FM or CM but might give you more of a "run what you brung" opportunity without having to go all the way to AMod.

By the way, if the rules change to give someone like Scott Nardin a potential advantage (he was competitive with the current rules I understand) Nationally competitive drivers may very well show up.

Dick
CM 85

[Darth Vee]

Don't know about going to BM. Haven't looked at the make up of the car. Its just that CM looks to be the better fit. As for Scott, the last 2 or 3 years he has been in a 500. He knows that the Vees are not competitive with the 5s. I think last year he was going to drive his Vee but an injury to his right hand kept him from shifting.

[mwizard]

Ok, I have a horse in this race and I can see the reasoning for the Vee in CM. That does not make the reasons for not moving the Vees any less compelling. We currently have an active class which is expanding and the low options for mods is one of the reasons for the resurgence of popularity. I can see the need to find a better class for the currently small number of Vees. I don't think upsetting CM is the best solution.
Mark

[TedV]

What is the HP potential of the 1915cc motor build? Some vw friends say 120 easy or more, but not sure it is same prep as allowed in solo. Is anyone running a full prep Vee?

What I liked about CM and CFF when I decided to buy a mod car was rules stability. Now that has changed a wee bit. Anyone want a club ford? I'm about done with playing with cars in SCCA.

[Darth Vee]

TedV,
I think the mods that the MAC are proposing will make the FF and the Vees close to the same power to weight ratio. When I put my Vee on the dyno 2 years ago (at the wheels) I was getting 98 hp with 115lbs tork at 5000 rpm. So thats about 10 lbs per horse. Thats with one 44 Webber. The only thing that I don't have now is ball joint front end (which I don't think makes a diff. in proformance). I don't think that the FFs will need any mods. You guys are fast as is. I don't think that we will upset the class, I think we will add to the class. It will mean more trophies that you guys can win. At 65 years of age, I don't expect to win anything but have lots of fun trying.

[DougW]

I understand you are looking for a better place to play, and I even sympathize. The problem is we need to think about what might happen if someone runs an SV and really does want to win. The mods certainly have the potential to upset the class and are not based on any hard data. The pre mod SV was very quick in the past. In the hands of a skilled driver and car tinkerer...hmmmm.

If CM was ailing and there were 20 SV's out there my opinion would be different. CM isn't sick, the number of Vee's is too few and frankly I think they have the potential to upset the applecart. An SV doesn't fit the nature of CM which is filled by GCR legal cars.

Mucking about with one of the most successful mod classes is not the way to do this. If you want to do these mods and just run for fun I think BM is the answer. That is a legal option you can use right now and have all the fun you can stand and it gets you away from the F500's.

[DougW]

What is the HP potential of the 1915cc motor build? Some vw friends say 120 easy or more, but not sure it is same prep as allowed in solo. Is anyone running a full prep Vee?

What I liked about CM and CFF when I decided to buy a mod car was rules stability. Now that has changed a wee bit. Anyone want a club ford? I'm about done with playing with cars in SCCA.

Ted, Don't leave just yet. Send a letter, stick around and help us fend off this proposal.

[na94]

My greatest objection would come from the disruption to CM competitors as we would have to constantly stop when an FV oils down the track.

Why do you think the FV drivers want to kick them out???

[Darth Vee]

Just like the CM at Nationals last year. Things happen to cars no matter what kind you have. They happen not because of poor maintinence, they happen because they break. The f5s don't want to kick us out, they enjoy beating us.

[TedV]

ok, say they mandate a better way to keep the valve covers on and no oil gets spewed. SV got the current allowances after they were moved to FM. Lets see if I have the numbers correct.

at 98 HP at the wheels, given 18% drive train loss = about 120hp like my friends guessed. 25% loss = 130hp. Solo Vee weighs 1000lbs

National prep road race Kent FF is 115hp, average motor build is probably 110hp at the crank. CM Kent weighs 1100 lbs

Power to weight advantage goes to the Solo Vee

FF has to run whatever tire will fit on a 13x5 rim. Solo Vee can run whatever rim and tire they desire. Advantage SoloVee

FF might have advantage in suspension as you can control the camber curve in roll. More work to get SoloVee suspension sorted, but SoloVee could be made to work with what it is given.

FF can change gear ratio's but Solo Vee can change tire diameter to work with gearing choices of available boxes. Solovee has more torque, more power, less weight. SoloVee gets a limited slip diff. Someone would need to prove to me solovee doesn't have advantage here.

I love me some VW. Take a look at my yard and you would have no doubt. Honestly I have wondered why nobody has been competitive in FM with a built to the limit Vee. Is there a built to the limit Vee with a competent driver running nationally? I can see why the Vee folks would like to be in CM.

Would I build a Vee? no, and here is why. I don't have the ability to chase the rule changes. I don't have the time or money. Life gets in the way. It seems to me the SEB makes changes to the rules just to make changes to prove they are doing something.



There are some other sour grapes as to why I feel I want to walk away from the SCCA. "if you don't like it, run something else" being said to me by national staff being a big part of it. but that's a rant for another time and place.