I agree. 25 pounds is essentially 2.5%. 2.5% slower to accel and decel.
This has been said many times before, but it fortunately doesn't work that way. If you do the calculation, you'll find it's much less. I just did that and for a drag race down the straight that 25 lb increase is more like a 0.33% difference in time to distance.
I know from many of your posts that you're very good with the formula's. Please explain it to me. I believe F=MA is going to govern this but maybe I'm wrong. I would like to understand how it is different.
Thanks
EDIT:
Just for information, John and I have corresponded about this, and John is correct. I appreciate John taking the time to correct my errors.
Last edited by BLS; April 6th, 2012 at 1:00 AM.
Reason: correction to my brain...
So if he was 6' 2" he'd be expected to weigh 195 which is close to my weight and
yet I was 28 lbs. over min. until I purchased a smaller starter and saved 4 pounds.
Your truly,
Lance armstrong II
P.S.: Bill...We just got so more ammo and thus the feud continues!
I know from many of your posts that you're very good with the formula's. Please explain it to me. I believe F=MA is going to govern this but maybe I'm wrong. I would like to understand how it is different.
I know from many of your posts that you're very good with the formula's. Please explain it to me. I believe F=MA is going to govern this but maybe I'm wrong. I would like to understand how it is different.
Thanks
Easy - WIND RESISTANCE, MOMENTUM, and ROLLING FRICTION are MUCH bigger parts of the equation.
An average is an average by definition. How do you skew an average?
When the mathmatical average doesn't portray an adequate picture...the very reason we also have median and mode.
Look, I'm not picking on the fat or overweight. I'm a bit out of shape myself. I take responsibility for my own situation and don't expect others to cater to me. If I want to be competitive I need to prioritize my efforts. It shouldn't be easy.
John, I sent a PM reply, but since this is the first time I may have made an error. My sent folder doesn't show anything. Let me know if you do not get the reply.
Thanks,
Barry
Steve, I understand there are numerous factors that govern the acceleration rate. Mass is one of those and is normally a straightforward calculation. We do it everyday for machinery calculations and air friction, mechanical friction exists. But it doesn't modify the basic formula, just changes the result. Maybe we do it wrong I would like to understand the calculation.
EDIT:
Steve, see my edit to comment #244. You and John are correct. My calculations are not inclusive of the dynamics involved, and are wrong. I appreciate John's very complete explanation, with the calculations involved.
Last edited by BLS; April 6th, 2012 at 1:04 AM.
Reason: Brain malfunction
Look, I'm not picking on the fat or overweight. I'm a bit out of shape myself. I take responsibility for my own situation and don't expect others to cater to me. If I want to be competitive I need to prioritize my efforts. It shouldn't be easy.
Very noble attitude and the way FV has been. But one man's "being catered to" is another man's "feeling welcome". There are tens of millions of obese Americans that can pass a physical and race, before we consider the 100 million that are just overweight. Why let them go race SM, SRF, FM, (or dozens of other SCCA or amatuer racing classes) when FV fields are declining. There is a similiar proportion of overweight/obese people in the FV community. The problem is they are standing in the pits or on a corner watching. I personally like many of those people, and do not consider them inferior human beings, or unworthy of FV participation. I would like FV to be more inclusive, or "easy" as you termed it.
Probably not mentioned because they have no relevence. Weight of unused fuel and comfort margin left to the minimum weight are the same for any car, any class, any form of racing, regardless of specified minimum weight.
If you think what I mentioned has no relevence, you just proved my point. Thank you.
Quote:
I would like FV to be more inclusive, or "easy" as you termed it.
Isn't the appeal of racing the challenge and competition? Keep finding ways to make it "easier" and it will become so dumbed down that no one will find any reward and satisfaction with it anymore. That's a sure way to kill it. If you want an easy hobby racing isn't for you in the first place.
Isn't the appeal of racing the challenge and competition? Keep finding ways to make it "easier" and it will become so dumbed down that no one will find any reward and satisfaction with it anymore. That's a sure way to kill it. If you want an easy hobby racing isn't for you in the first place.
I'd rather race with dozens of other cars in my class in my own race group than 4 cars in my own class in a Formula Alphabet group. The only way that will ever happen, is to make FV accessable to many more people, as inferior as they may be.
I think a minor weight change is far from "dumbing down" the class and if this
causes a driver not to find any satisfaction and/or reward as a result of this
change, then they we're already heading down this path before a change was
actually made!
I agree. Nobody, but you, mentioned it, so it is not relevent.
So why would you mention it?
I guess I need to be a little more specific for those who just don't get it...
My initial comment was I wonder how many people who are complaining about being overweight actually go through the effort to keep track of how much fuel that have left or need. If your car weighs 1035 dry with no fuel, wouldn't you want to finish a race with as little extra fuel as possible? Doing so requires careful logging of fuel usage and careful monitoring of what you are putting in and what is currently in the cell. But doing so is free. I have no sympathy for those who are overweight but overlook such things and come in with and extra gallon of fuel. So yes, it has significant relevence.
My other comment was also relevant as although 1025 is the minimum, most people shoot for 5-10 over as a saftey factor. So to be 1045 and bitch about being 20lbs over isn't exactly accurate, as one would not want to cut it that close. If you finish the race at 1045, you can bitch about being 10-15 over, but not 20. So those who can make 1030-1035 really have nothing to complain about - and I'll bet that's where a lot of people fall.
I'm having trouble following the logic that being more inclusive to overweight/larger, bigger/heavier drivers is "dumbing" down the class. Would that mean larger means dumber?
I also expect a few visitors are giggling at the term "dumbing down FV".
I guess I need to be a little more specific for those who just don't get it...
My initial comment was I wonder how many people who are complaining about being overweight actually go through the effort to keep track of how much fuel that have left or need. If your car weighs 1035 dry with no fuel, wouldn't you want to finish a race with as little extra fuel as possible? Doing so requires careful logging of fuel usage and careful monitoring of what you are putting in and what is currently in the cell. But doing so is free. I have no sympathy for those who are overweight but overlook such things and come in with and extra gallon of fuel. So yes, it has significant relevence.
My other comment was also relevant as although 1025 is the minimum, most people shoot for 5-10 over as a saftey factor. So to be 1045 and bitch about being 20lbs over isn't exactly accurate, as one would not want to cut it that close. If you finish the race at 1045, you can bitch about being 10-15 over, but not 20. So those who can make 1030-1035 really have nothing to complain about - and I'll bet that's where a lot of people fall.
All those issues are the same in any class and in FV whether the minimum weight is 1025 or 1075.
I'm having trouble following the logic that being more inclusive to overweight/larger, bigger/heavier drivers is "dumbing" down the class. Would that mean larger means dumber?
I also expect a few visitors are giggling at the term "dumbing down FV".
Greg, it is very easy for any Average Joe to make weight in FV these days. Assuming average Joe is the slightly above or at national average weight there are a few things they can do to acheive this:
1. Buy a $25,000.00 plus car - makes total sense to me...
or
2. Take an average FV that is available for sale & make a lot of safety alterations to it making it a weaker car to lighten it up - this also makes total sense to me...
or
3. Stop complaining that life gets in the way & ignore family responsibilities & get your fat butt in the gym & lose 50 lbs even if you are 6' 2" you need to get down to 150 lbs - which would make sense to me as well. Also you could wear your wifes clothes if she had left over from her teenage years too...what a bonus.
I guess I could go on but have to go back to work so I can afford that Vortech to make weight.
I'd rather race with dozens of other cars in my class in my own race group than 4 cars in my own class in a Formula Alphabet group. The only way that will ever happen, is to make FV accessable to many more people.
Greg,
I don't think many would disagree with your first sentence.
FV is already extremely accessible. It should be easy to participate, it shouldn't be easy to be competitive.
It's the expectation that somebody can sit on their couch (or in front of their computer ) for hours on end, eat fast food 5x a week and then expect to be competitive with somebody who takes the effort a little more seriously.
It's impossible to argue, whatever you may think, that the "average" American is a healthy person and makes an effort to stay in shape. That's not the point, though - the point is YES, we do need to make FV more accessible.
Elitism in FV? That's fantastic. Why don't you work a little harder at your day job, make some real money and go drive a real car?
I have a hard time understanding what you're trying to protect. You think you'll have a smaller chance at winning the runoffs if there are more guys running regionals at 1075lbs? How many people at the runoffs are even affected by any of this? How many of the top 10 are struggling with making minimum weight?
It's in the rules, see: "the focus remains the same: to provide a cost effective, highly competitive class that, through consistent and tightly controlled component and preparation rules, emphasizes driver ability rather than technological development of the car."
It's an entry level class, so yes, it should be easy to get into and at least meet the requirements. Being competitive and winning races isn't easy now and it won't be easy with increased weight limits. But if you're so adamant about racing being hard and challenging, who knows, one of the few guys that IS affected positively by this might make it harder for you!
You know what, I just changed my mind. Let's make it real challenging and set the weight to 975lb. I have tried oh so very hard all my life to keep my weight down and I deserve the advantage!
I don't think many would disagree with your first sentence.
FV is already extremely accessible. It should be easy to participate, it shouldn't be easy to be competitive.
It's the expectation that somebody can sit on their couch (or in front of their computer ) for hours on end, eat fast food 5x a week and then expect to be competitive with somebody who takes the effort a little more seriously.
You're going from one extreme to another. Changing the minimum weight by 25 lbs is not going to change who wins or does not, in most cases. It would be a start in making the cars more accessable. As obvious as this seems, most people who are in awesome shape, already have a hobby. And I expect, that if Lance Armstrong had a day job, been married for 20 yrs, had 3 kids, had to do all the prep and transport on his hobby equipment, and wanted some semblance of a normal life, he would not be in the shape he is. He'd probably be more like most Americans. IMO, he would be just as worthy of being a FV racer as he is now.
Elitism in FV? That's fantastic. Why don't you work a little harder at your day job, make some real money and go drive a real car?
It's called priorities. I don't expect something for nothing and I don't complain about where my choices get me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago Santos
..But if you're so adamant about racing being hard and challenging, who knows, one of the few guys that IS affected positively by this might make it harder for you!
Great. The harder the victory is to earn, the more rewarding. Nobody enjoys easy wins for long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiago Santos
You know what, I just changed my mind. Let's make it real challenging and set the weight to 975lb. I have tried oh so very hard all my life to keep my weight down and I deserve the advantage!
It's called priorities. I don't expect something for nothing and I don't complain about where my choices get me.
I agree! But like I said, elitism in what is supposedly the cheapest, most accessible racing class, is strange to me. A bit like saying "I'm at the bottom of the pile, but happy that there's guys that can't even get to the pile".
Quote:
Great. The harder the victory is to earn, the more rewarding. Nobody enjoys easy wins for long.
That was kind of my point, too! The "racing should be hard" argument is not completely relevant to this discussion, in my opinion. Hard for who? Everyone else who struggles to make weight? Or everyone, including you, if the minimum requirements are relaxed and more people have a better chance?
I'm not naive enough to believe the GCR that FV is all about driver skill. But I'd be happy to let it play as much of a role as possible. Eliminate barriers and excuses for other people and your own victories will be that much better.
We could, I suppose, just start adjusting weights based on performance. If the goal is to make it easier and more fair, we should look into it.
Or, option B would be to draw straws at the start of the weekend to determine who gets to drive what car. We all bring our cars to the track, then randomly get assigned one for the weekend. That might be the fairest way to race and give everyone the best chance of winning. Hell, we could just call everyone a winner for signing up. Afterall, it took effort to get to the track.
And for what it's worth, I'm only trying to protect the integrity of the rules and class. What happened to personal responsibility? I'm almost 6'4", and would LOVE to have 2 more inches of wheelbase to work with. I'm pretty sure I could build a much faster car if I had the room to work it....but I don't go around bitching that it's not fair I have to race against guys who are only 5'7".
Flame away - I'm going to go work on making my car lighter.
You're going from one extreme to another. Changing the minimum weight by 25 lbs is not going to change who wins or does not, in most cases. It would be a start in making the cars more accessable.
If accessibility starts there, where does it end? Are shocks, data systems, National-caliber engines and intake manifolds, wind tunnel testing, and race prep budgets also part of the accessibility discussion? Because all those things are more likely to result in an uncompetitive car than 25 pounds.
__________________
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
As a person running FV for the first time this year (just got regional permit) I find this whole discussion interesting. I have spent the last year re-building a car and gettting ready to race (including working out to get in "race shape" to perform my best and never once did I think, before or after buying a car, that the weight restrictions would be a deterent for me to get into FV. I believe if that is the only reason a person is staying out of FV then they aren't really interested anyway. FV racing is fun, if you want to be competitve and win you have choices in tires, data acquisition, body style, engine builds, mainfolds, etc. I view weight as just another tool in that array of options to increase performance/finishing places. For the first year(s) there are so many variables and things to learn that weight is quite honestly the last thing on my mind and wasn't on my mind at all when prepping the car. If I get to within a second of winning races, then I will start dealing with exact weight and other adjustments but I have a hard time believing that anyone who is serious about starting racing FV would be stopped by the weight thing. Most new folks with no background in FV probably don't even know what a car does/can weigh or do the calculation of whether they would be under/over before saying "yeah, I want to do that." I think a lot of people on here assume that "new guys" have the same knowledge of details that you all have. New guys with no background in racing just think its cool and hey I want to try that, it looks fun. Supporting them in getting started and fostering their introduction to FV racing is way more important than worrying about the weight limit. I know, I have gotten two additional people interested in FV based mostly on "hey this is a blast and a reasonable cost way to race and have fun." Not once have either of them said anything about minimum weight requirements in considering FV.
As an example, this past weekend at drivers school I ran good times (8 seconds off lead) on friday (not knowing that I was 24lbs under weight) then qualified Saturday night running 2 seconds faster, then after going through the scales, added the 24lbs of ballast and ran the race, you guessed it, even faster than qualifying. Sunday, again with the ballast, ran another 2 seconds faster than the day before and weighed in 10lbs over at the end of the race and was right in the lead pack of FVs. Point is, fun, driving challenge, cost and many other components go into a person selecting FV, very little of which has to do with the weight minimum. And to clarify, I have a 60 hour a week job, kids in sports, coach sports, volunteer activities, etc and drive a 20 year old heavy Citation with no drilling, lightweight stuff, etc. and still needed to add 24lbs of weight and I am 6' and weigh 175 so theoretically a 190+lb guy could be in my car and easily make 1025. I also think that being in "race shape" is the cheapest and easiest source of speed on the track.
Based on this in-fighting and discussion and me being newly introduced to FV I think the weight limit is irrelevant and the focus for attracting new people and retaining newcomers should be 1)lowering costs (spec tire) which are a HUGE detriment to a new guy trying to get into the sport who can't spend $600 a weekend on tires; and 2) having a more organized mentor and welcoming program to help new people out (I was fortunate to find some great help but even with that felt completely lost at times).
My $.02 but since people keep referencing what will attract more people to the class I thought it was relevent to hear from a newb who just joined the class.
If accessibility starts there, where does it end? Are shocks, data systems, National-caliber engines and intake manifolds, wind tunnel testing, and race prep budgets also part of the accessibility discussion? Because all those things are more likely to result in an uncompetitive car than 25 pounds.
Spec tires and changing minimum weight are about the only two tools we have that can help make FV better for many people without significantly changing the rules and obsoleting some cars and drivers. Look how much resistance a few people throw at positive change. If we had a few hundred more elitists out there willing to spend $25K+ on FV instead of joining classes like FF, FC, FB, FM, etc ...... then we could let the "Regular Joes" move along and focus on all the healthy wealthy newbs. Good luck with that plan?
As a person running FV for the first time this year (just got regional permit) I find this whole discussion interesting. I have spent the last year re-building a car and gettting ready to race (including working out to get in "race shape" to perform my best and never once did I think, before or after buying a car, that the weight restrictions would be a deterent for me to get into FV. I believe if that is the only reason a person is staying out of FV then they aren't really interested anyway. FV racing is fun, if you want to be competitve and win you have choices in tires, data acquisition, body style, engine builds, mainfolds, etc. I view weight as just another tool in that array of options to increase performance/finishing places. For the first year(s) there are so many variables and things to learn that weight is quite honestly the last thing on my mind and wasn't on my mind at all when prepping the car. If I get to within a second of winning races, then I will start dealing with exact weight and other adjustments but I have a hard time believing that anyone who is serious about starting racing FV would be stopped by the weight thing. Most new folks with no background in FV probably don't even know what a car does/can weigh or do the calculation of whether they would be under/over before saying "yeah, I want to do that." I think a lot of people on here assume that "new guys" have the same knowledge of details that you all have. New guys with no background in racing just think its cool and hey I want to try that, it looks fun. Supporting them in getting started and fostering their introduction to FV racing is way more important than worrying about the weight limit. I know, I have gotten two additional people interested in FV based mostly on "hey this is a blast and a reasonable cost way to race and have fun." Not once have either of them said anything about minimum weight requirements in considering FV.
As an example, this past weekend at drivers school I ran good times (8 seconds off lead) on friday (not knowing that I was 24lbs under weight) then qualified Saturday night running 2 seconds faster, then after going through the scales, added the 24lbs of ballast and ran the race, you guessed it, even faster than qualifying. Sunday, again with the ballast, ran another 2 seconds faster than the day before and weighed in 10lbs over at the end of the race and was right in the lead pack of FVs. Point is, fun, driving challenge, cost and many other components go into a person selecting FV, very little of which has to do with the weight minimum. And to clarify, I have a 60 hour a week job, kids in sports, coach sports, volunteer activities, etc and drive a 20 year old heavy Citation with no drilling, lightweight stuff, etc. and still needed to add 24lbs of weight and I am 6' and weigh 175 so theoretically a 190+lb guy could be in my car and easily make 1025. I also think that being in "race shape" is the cheapest and easiest source of speed on the track.
Based on this in-fighting and discussion and me being newly introduced to FV I think the weight limit is irrelevant and the focus for attracting new people and retaining newcomers should be 1)lowering costs (spec tire) which are a HUGE detriment to a new guy trying to get into the sport who can't spend $600 a weekend on tires; and 2) having a more organized mentor and welcoming program to help new people out (I was fortunate to find some great help but even with that felt completely lost at times).
My $.02 but since people keep referencing what will attract more people to the class I thought it was relevent to hear from a newb who just joined the class.
I am glad you have so much enthusiasm and found guidance from good mentors. Every year that you are involved, you will see people cycle through, and see the various reasons why some stay and some leave. Most people leave after fading away gradually for a few years, struggling with the balance between the enjoyment and the sacrifices involved. Many of us are trying to reduce the sacrifice/commitment level so that the struggle is less imposing. Will you have the same enthusiasm in 2 yrs? 5 yrs? 10 yrs? Some do. Some choose wives, families, friends, careers, etc instead.
It's a shame that certain individuals would rather be a large fish in a small pond rather than a Large fish in a Large pond!
Actually I got bored being a large fish in a small pond....unfortunately all the neighboring ponds were empty....other ponds were too far away to make it worth the money and time.
This isn't elitism. I have had my butt handed to me more than once or twice. Unfortunately for me, it didn't happen often enough to stay hungry. Two fish came to race but didn't stick around long at all...one went to F2000 pro series for Oregal, I heard the other went to race Formula Renault in Brazil for CastroNeves.
I would like to understand the calculation.
) for hours on end, eat fast food 5x a week and then expect to be competitive with somebody who takes the effort a little more seriously.
