Im afraid this poll is turning into what would be the coolest and not so much the most practical. Just as a point of thoughts, when we had SRF as the mod, there was consistency in members showing up.
Simplicity will help the series. With the SRF, you can pretty much show up and be within 96% of the best setup out there. Hell, at Thunderhill, I was actually quicker using my keyboard than my wheel and pedal setup.
That being said, I think overall arrive-and-drive drivers (like myself sometimes) are going to feel more in-tune if they don't have to worry about massive setup changes.
I felt out to lunch most of the time with the rF3 because I didn't have the time to test, but the SRF, S2 and 340 FF seem to be rather trouble free, espcially with the SRF having fixed gearing.
Just something to think about...
Cheers,
Jacques N. Dresang
UMW
__________________
Jacques N. Dresang
FF: 1977 AAR Eagle DGF #005 - Ford #46
F5: 1998 Invader QC-1 #007 - Rotax #72 www.uemsimotorwerks.com
Simplicity will help the series. With the SRF, you can pretty much show up and be within 96% of the best setup out there. Hell, at Thunderhill, I was actually quicker using my keyboard than my wheel and pedal setup.
That being said, I think overall arrive-and-drive drivers (like myself sometimes) are going to feel more in-tune if they don't have to worry about massive setup changes.
I felt out to lunch most of the time with the rF3 because I didn't have the time to test, but the SRF, S2 and 340 FF seem to be rather trouble free, espcially with the SRF having fixed gearing.
Just something to think about...
Cheers,
Jacques N. Dresang
UMW
I do agree with your points here Jac, I think the SRF made things very easy for people to jump right in and go. That being said I personally find the SRF, FF, and S2 to get quite boring with the speed. Some of the slightly faster cars, FA, F2... would be a blast to open up on some non club tracks, something a bit bigger and faster.
As far as the set up stuff goes, I have found that you can honestly get a car set up in 2-5 laps on rfactor. Some of the faster mods, open wheelers have many adjustments I never even touch, and once you get a gear setup and wing set up I have found they work almost exactly the same on every track. When we ran the rf3 mod I used the exact same setup the entire year, same suspension, same wings... with a possible tweak on the gears.
Also, if anyone is struggling on setup, I would be more than happy to share mine with anyone who needs it. With rfactor I have also found that by changing a setup may initially gain you 1-2 seconds over default, but most of that time just comes from a few extra laps in practice. The setup advantages in rfactor to me are very minimal.
Boring Colin? We obviously need to start you from the back, since you're the returning champ and all. Short-track rules apply for you!
Agreed, SRF is rather slow, but I did a mixed offline race at Mosport and lapped the SRF field in 5 laps in an S2 car, which I find to be fun and still somewhat of a handful to drive.
I haven't driven the T340 for a while, but I recall it was rather quick and twitchy, which is a nice thing to have in the off-season.
Cheers,
JD
__________________
Jacques N. Dresang
FF: 1977 AAR Eagle DGF #005 - Ford #46
F5: 1998 Invader QC-1 #007 - Rotax #72 www.uemsimotorwerks.com
Boring Colin? We obviously need to start you from the back, since you're the returning champ and all. Short-track rules apply for you!
Agreed, SRF is rather slow, but I did a mixed offline race at Mosport and lapped the SRF field in 5 laps in an S2 car, which I find to be fun and still somewhat of a handful to drive.
I haven't driven the T340 for a while, but I recall it was rather quick and twitchy, which is a nice thing to have in the off-season.
Cheers,
JD
Jac, I think you are on to something.... how about a two class race... sort of like gt1 gt2
Or GTP vs. Camel Lights.
Would F2 cars and FF be too much of a speed difference?
hey guys..
i also will race whatever... if done by poll, or by Keith..
my first choice was the s2
the srf, s2, ff, would be easier for setups.. but, the fast guys will still be in front. maybe by not so much, but still there. and not as much chance of them wrecking out as with the faster cars.
out of the FA, F2 or F1 - i like the feel of the F1 the best. we would have carnage EVERYWHERE.. but it would be a hoot. (good point that some guys would drop out because of not having enough time to do setups)
i can only speak for me, but i like the challenge either way. try to do the best i can with what i have and hang in there. i had some great racing with a lot of you and we weren't at the pointy end of the Field. that is the of it for me..
so Keith - what do YOU think - you are our leader (oh, LUCKY YOU )
__________________
Seeeeeeeeeeeeee Ya --- Jer
"Use to be" --- CF #33
This series is for your regulars, however you may get more participants staying if the results are less predictable. Would more powerful cars and some setup flexibility have an impact on that?
but, it seems to have another effect too. it is harder to just arrive and drive for some (colin is an exception i mean REALLY - he is ) most have to spend time getting a setup and some just don't have/or want to have the time.
and, with faster more fragile cars if you get into a little wheel to wheel you might just be out of the race, after a couple of them people drop out of the series.
when we ran the RF3 formula cars a couple of years ago that is what happen. if you were lucky enough to hang in there and not get punted, you might finish well, as you said less predictable for those that hang in there.
conversely, when we ran the srf's they was a lot of fender banging without the dnf's. also, you could if you wanted to, just show up Wednesday night, practice a little bit and you were good to go.
with either car, the field looked the same as far as the fast guys, are still in front.. whether your favorite is picked or not, remember you can't please everybody. my wife says, this isn't for REAL anyway - and take off that stupid "GET COLIN" T-shirt.
as of right now in our poll, the FA is in front, with the F1 and FF close behind.
or keith will step in and pick - we shall see. hopefully soon, so people can start practicing on-line with the mod we are going to run and getting their skins painted!
__________________
Seeeeeeeeeeeeee Ya --- Jer
"Use to be" --- CF #33
Hi guys,
I totally agree about the mod needing to have minimal setup because I know that for me, personally, I won't be able to put in much time at practicing so something with a fixed gear stack and minimal setup options would be the best. The trouble is, I haven't run just about all of the mods listed in the poll. Are there any in the list aside from the SRF that has a pretty spec setup? Does anyone know of other mods that may not be listed which are pretty limited with setup? I'm kind of tired of the SRF, but would like something else with minimal setup time needed. Would the Mini Cooper Cup cars, the Caterhams, or the Legend cars be something like that? I still have yet to set up my sim racing setup in the basement since the move.
__________________ 2003 VanDiemen FSCCA #29 KeithCarter.net
"Faster and faster, until
the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death."
--Hunter S. Thompson
but, it seems to have another effect too. it is harder to just arrive and drive for some (colin is an exception i mean REALLY - he is ) most have to spend time getting a setup and some just don't have/or want to have the time.
and, with faster more fragile cars if you get into a little wheel to wheel you might just be out of the race, after a couple of them people drop out of the series.
when we ran the RF3 formula cars a couple of years ago that is what happen. if you were lucky enough to hang in there and not get punted, you might finish well, as you said less predictable for those that hang in there.
conversely, when we ran the srf's they was a lot of fender banging without the dnf's. also, you could if you wanted to, just show up Wednesday night, practice a little bit and you were good to go.
with either car, the field looked the same as far as the fast guys, are still in front.. whether your favorite is picked or not, remember you can't please everybody. my wife says, this isn't for REAL anyway - and take off that stupid "GET COLIN" T-shirt.
as of right now in our poll, the FA is in front, with the F1 and FF close behind.
or keith will step in and pick - we shall see. hopefully soon, so people can start practicing on-line with the mod we are going to run and getting their skins painted!
I fully appreciate your point. I think the main question I see raised here, is what is minimal setup requirement. Is that more than none,(how much more than none) or once or what does that mean? My recollection was that this group was not in favour of fixed setup.
FA seems to fix a few more things than the other contenders. As an example, I have run versions of the F5000 mod where you can only adjust the front wing on a fixed setup(mind you someone did the fixed setup for each track), so it is possible to keep the mod simple, but you have to have a restricted special version of a mod or setup and someone to create it.
The operational requirements for the series probably need more clarity of definition than the selection of the series.
Just trying to get you guys to where you want to be! Then folks will be better able to decide if they want to participate and stick with it.
i have not been in a series where someone creates a setup that the whole group would then run.. did not even know that could be done. it would be worth a thought though.
i think what Keith was getting at was something like the SRF, a spec car with limited setup. no gearing changes or dif settings. with that in mind i took the mini and then the caterham for a 10 lap race at indy. both are spec cars. the mini with only brake bias adjustments was more or less good to go. times where in the 1:48 range, fun to drive with only front tire heating as a possible issure for longer races. fuel load was 29 laps. 6 speed tranny..
the caterrham was a different beast. i did not like it, hard to drive. best lap in the 2:20 range. fuel load 25 laps. 5 speed tranny, no gear or dif settings.
the sports 2000 does have gearing changes, 4 speed 20 lap fuel load. would need more setup time, but not an awful lot. lap times 1:44 ish.
lola t340 i felt was hardest to drive. 4 speed, with gear changes and dif settings. 1:48 times.
is that what you want to know keith?
__________________
Seeeeeeeeeeeeee Ya --- Jer
"Use to be" --- CF #33
I know that I would prefer "minimal setup work" over fixed setups or a million options.
I do somewhat agree with what Colin said earlier, when I find a good base setup for a car, I can usually use it for most tracks with minimal changes. From past experiences, the rF3 car is one that can be done this way (I can't stand the stock setup though) The newer Atlantic mod (014's) had a pretty good base setup, as well as the FBMW, which we have both raced before years ago. But these aren't options for obvious reasons.
And from past experiences, I also know that the "fixed setup" option usually doesn't work.
It may help some people, but it will hurt others as well. (I could go into detail, but I'll leave it at that for now)
Honestly, I don't really care what we race, I just figured I'd voice my opinion (not like anyone really cares about it)
__________________
Ty Handke
Handke Motorsport Technologies
Cars In Development: HMST-F01a(FF), HMST-B01c(FB)
Agree fixed setup is not for everyone, It is also true that you can find a good baseline and then work from there. I think that is true for a lot of mods, once you find the base setup you only need to work at it a bit. I thought the FA mod wasn't too bad as you it won't let you mess with shocks. I suspect you could find a reasonable setup and go from there. I think the 1985 sports 2000 mod has fewer setup options as well. It sounds like none isn't right, but how much more than none seems unclear? It also sounds like you may not want to repeat last years mod either! How will whomever then decide?
Yes, thanks Jer. That kind of input is good. Don't forget there is a Spec Miata mod out there that was recently updated as well. I agree that a fixed setup does not work for everyone. What I would like to see is something with minimal setup where you can still tweak a car to how you like it, but don't need to spend hours of practice time in order to find the perfect setup.
__________________ 2003 VanDiemen FSCCA #29 KeithCarter.net
"Faster and faster, until
the thrill of speed overcomes the fear of death."
--Hunter S. Thompson
At a cursury glance, in terms of number of allowed adjustments I would rank them this way:
Least to most
1) FSR
2) FA, Sports 2000 are similar but not the same
3) F2, FF are similar but not the same
just tried the spec miata v2.1 didn't like it as much as the mini. they have 4 levels of cars, only changes in gearing is final. but more or less you can change dif, shocks and stuff. slowest class, i did not like at all - too slow, fastest class was rolly and the steeler game is on now and i am going up to watch it. would take the mini over this. but - i will race any mod.. fA which looks like it won the poll, F2, mini - whatever you choose..
give some a try, and make your pick...
GO STEELERS (come on - i'm from Pittsburgh - give me a break )
__________________
Seeeeeeeeeeeeee Ya --- Jer
"Use to be" --- CF #33
Realize I'm late in the game and didn't do any of the series last year, but what's wrong with the FBMW? Easier to drive than the rF3, and less difference between a bad setup and a good, seemed like.
I don't mind the FBMW cars either, maybe a bit slow/boring on some track. But normally have close fields, with not much setup work, mainly down to the driver.
They just weren't an option on the list.
I don't even think they were mentioned until I brought them up in my earlier post.
And to clarify, when I said "But these aren't options for obvious reasons." I was only referring the the Swift 014 Atlantic mod, there isn't really too much setup involved to be at the front (once you got the wings and gearing right, there was maybe half a second left to find through the other settings), they're easy to drive fast, but difficult to run real fast in when you don't have your actual behind in the cockpit. And when we ran them years ago, had really spread out fields.
(I will admit I only ran 2 races that season, winning them both I might add , but there wasn't really anyone to race with. They were both rather boring.)
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Ty Handke
Handke Motorsport Technologies
Cars In Development: HMST-F01a(FF), HMST-B01c(FB)
That was back when I was still in school/finishing up, so April-May 2008 I think.
I moved home after school, and just had dialup internet, so I couldn't show up for the rest of the races.
edit: We ran the FBMW cars the few months before that Nov-Feb, or something like that...
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Ty Handke
Handke Motorsport Technologies
Cars In Development: HMST-F01a(FF), HMST-B01c(FB)
Yeah
I can't remember how many more races they ran. There were only 6 or 7 cars at the first 2 rounds if I remember correctly. Not sure if it was the car, or the time of year which affected the turnout more.
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Ty Handke
Handke Motorsport Technologies
Cars In Development: HMST-F01a(FF), HMST-B01c(FB)
I think the winner of the poll, the FA is a good choice for the league. It is faster than the SRF that we did last year, and it would be a nice change to drive an open wheel car this year. It fits the bill for the people that wanted a vintage car as well, and the setup adjustments are minimal. The gearing is adjustable but I don't think that is the hardest thing to figure out.
I tried to find any mods that I had installed with set gears and didn't have many. The ones I did have were touring car type mods (Skoda,Porsche Super Cup, NAGT). The Skoda had little to adjust but the other two had a ton of other adjustments (6 of one half a dozen of the other).
If setup is something that prevents someone from racing, then they are welcome to my setups. I have no problem sending that or a basic setup to the "arrive and drive" guys. I'd rather race a full field with equal cars.
Lets get this sorted out and pick out some fun tracks so we can get onto the track!
General Formula Car Discussion
Winter League Mod Poll
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