Broken clavicle from a HANS

[budawe]

Has anyone had any experience with broken clavicle caused by a HANS device? The reason I ask is that we had two clavicles broken this weekend in accidents. I was always told not to anchor shoulder belts below the shoulder line because the clavicle is in danger under impact. In a super reclined position, like many vees, this is more critical since the front of the chest or sternum area is not a force bearing area.

[sflaten]

Have not had it happen in a race car, but did have my left on snap in 4 places when I got t-boned in an intersection by an uninsured motorist. The air bag also went off. My guess is that in the right conditions where one side was impacted and took up the bulk of the restraint on one side it would be a possibility.

There are directions from most belt makes that the anchor point should be below shoulder. If in a reclining position I would not think it would be a cause of broken bones. In a front impact, it would be more likely to submarine. If in a side impact you would want the restraint anchored lower than the shoulde so you would not slide under them.

[Matt King]

There are directions from most belt makes that the anchor point should be below shoulder.

Most belt makers recommend an attachment point ranging from level with the shoulders to a maximum of 20 degrees below. The Schroth instructions are quite detailed:

http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/docs/Co...structions.pdf

[Daryl DeArman]

Has anyone had any experience with broken clavicle caused by a HANS device?

Bill Ziegler, World Challenge GTS driver blamed his broken collar bone at Long Beach, earlier this year, on his HANS. It was a rather straight forward off into the tires on an escape road. Didn't look too bad from his on-board (footage on You-Tube). Certainly not broken clavicle worthy.

The risk of the HANS device leading to a broken collar bone and the subsequent risk of carotid artery damage (one of those high volume important arteries ) was raised here years ago. However, the messenger was unpopular here, so the message wasn't heard.

It's just one more reason I chose another device over the HANS, and my next device will be something other than the HANS.

HOWEVER, to me it is similar to blaming seatbelts that trap people in burning cars. Or blaming motorcycle helmets for neck injuries. Over a long period of time the device will be credited for saving many more lives than it takes (and it will take some). That doesn't mean we stick our heads in the sand and not insist on improvements in the design. Those improvements will be expedited because of competition; something HANS needs more of. By just following the herd and buying a HANS isn't helping that situation.

[budawe]

Well spoken Daryl. I'd like to see some research from Dr. Hubbert (sp) or SFI.

[Josh Pitt]

the title of this thread makes it seem as though the HANS device is the reason there was a broken clavicle.
my experience with the HANS is that is offers the best padding around. I have tried harness pads, and have gone with harness, and no hans.
the hans device allows me to tighten the belts down the most, and have the most cushion on my body.

IMO, if someone broke their collar bone while wearing the hans device, i would say its for 2 reason.
1) the belts in the car are not installed to specifications to accomadate the hans device. adding the device may require new mounting points to allow for the correct angles of the harness. the device will add some height to the shoulder belts route.

2) the collar bone would have been broken even if the driver was not wearing the device.

bottom line is that i have been in wrecks where i was wearing my hans device. I KNOW that it works when used correctly. I will take a broken collar bone over a broken or severely stretched out neck/spine any day of the week.
I dont need anybody making rules that force me to wear any H+N device. just like my harness, i use the hans with confidence.

the original title is very misleading to any reading scanning the section.
its has already been "spun" to say the hans is the reason for the injury. I think what would be the injuries if the driver was NOT wearing the hans; a broken collar bone and what else.........

the title of this thread should read
driver broke clavicle while wearing hans device in wreck; this allows the reader to make his own conclusions.

I wear my HANS every session, and that will not change.

[cooleyjb]

I haven't seen much about the broken clavicle but I am pretty certain that some people will be much more susceptible than others. Mine are not very prominent and when I used a HANS I ran without pads. That point was not the hotspot and I'd doubt that it would cause a broken clavicle on me.

However I would expect to see a lot more broken collarbones from people going in and not letting go of the steering wheel. Typical crash as a kid that breaks the clavicle is falling with arms outstretched. We see the same in bike racing like the Tour de France.

I think everyone here knows where I stand on HNR. Wear one and wear the best one that YOU make an informed decision on.

[swiftdrivr]

As an ER doctor, I can't say I've ever seen a clavicle fracture injure a carotid artery. The clavicle crosses the upper chest. The carotid is in the neck. A porsterior [pushed in] clavicle dislocation at the sternum can press on the subclavian vein, and require repair. This is a whole lot better than a broken neck. And, as noted above, the HANS may not have caused the break, and the injuries may have been worse without the HANS. [Think about it; you cross the clavicle with a strap. If you want to protect the clavicle from the force from the loaded strap, you would spread the force by putting a padded shield between the clavicle and the strap, like a hockey shin guard. Or a HANS device. I'm not saying it couldn't have done it, just unlikely if worn right. If twisted severely, and an edge got pressed in on one side, it's possible, but that requires lose belts or high force.]
If I recall correctly, Mercedes F1 did a series of studies on the HANS, and now all the pro series use them. I doubt that HANS is the last word in neck protection, but until someone comes up with something that is PROVEN to be better, I'll stick with mine.

[kea]

Well said Jim.
I wonder if the GTS driver in question, could of had the same injury caused by the belts on their own.
The HANS probably saved him from another type of injury.

[R. Pare]

The risk of the HANS device leading to a broken collar bone and the subsequent risk of carotid artery damage (one of those high volume important arteries ) was raised here years ago. However, the messenger was unpopular here, so the message wasn't heard.

That particular poster was more interested in promoting his own device and slamming the HANS than promoting an educational dialogue, and was pretty much summarily dismissed.

Dr. Jim:

What is your opinion on this:

Assuming that for drivers with collarbones that protrude a lot, the HANS may indeed place heavy loads on the collarbone in a frontal crash, would it not be wise/effective to add thickness to the padding above and below the collarbone to help ensure that loads are more evenly spread to the shoulder and chest muscles? I would think that this could be done without compromising the performance of the HANS at all.

[Daryl DeArman]

Well spoken Daryl. I'd like to see some research from Dr. Hubbert (sp) or SFI.

I'd love to see some research from a party without a vested interest in the outcome.

IMO, if someone broke their collar bone while wearing the hans device, i would say its for 2 reason.

2) the collar bone would have been broken even if the driver was not wearing the device.

Logically, that makes sense if we are talking about a zero degree offset impact. Larger area that you spread the load over the lesser the load. However, if the impact is angular concentrating the loads onto a small area of the device instead of a 3" wide area our results may vary.

I wonder if the GTS driver in question, could of had the same injury caused by the belts on their own.
The HANS probably saved him from another type of injury.

Possibly, and the reason I made the seatbelt and helmet analogies.

As an ER doctor, I can't say I've ever seen a clavicle fracture injure a carotid artery. The clavicle crosses the upper chest. The carotid is in the neck.

Perhaps it is rare, but it does happen. Google the two terms together and you'll see it discussed in various medical journals.

[Daryl DeArman]

That particular poster was more interested in promoting his own device and slamming the HANS than promoting an educational dialogue, and was pretty much summarily dismissed.

Perhaps while touting the merits/advantages of his own device he appeared to be attacking the sacred HANS. Marketing 101 teaches that you should market the merits of what you're selling not tout the weaknesses of your competition.....that doesn't make his claims any less true.

[ric baribeault]

Having both an engineering and medical background, I feel it's safe to say that if you're going to break your clavicle, it makes no clinically significant difference whether you're wearing a HANS or just belts. The type of restraint is not likely to be one of the variables that determine that injury. Either will suffice. I broke mine at the acromioclavicular joint with belts in '86. If the HANS had been around, more than likely, I still would have broken my clavicle, but probably wouldn't have fractured 2 vertebrae and ruptured 3 disc.

[carnut169]

I own and use a Hans, and won't race without a H&N device of some sort. That said, I wish the Isaac device was legal. I tried one and liked it a whole lot better- can't slip off the belts, you don't even know your wearing it. I also think it would offer some protection in a side impact.

[mousecatcher]

Has anyone had any experience with broken clavicle caused by a HANS device? The reason I ask is that we had two clavicles broken this weekend in accidents. I was always told not to anchor shoulder belts below the shoulder line because the clavicle is in danger under impact. In a super reclined position, like many vees, this is more critical since the front of the chest or sternum area is not a force bearing area.

How does such misinformation propagate, especially considering all the excellent instructions available on correct HANS mounting? For the accidents in question, were the belts routed according to HANS instructions, or were they above the shoulder line? What exactly is super reclined?

Seems more likely to me that the cause of injury is due to incorrect HANS device version (there are 4 versions for 4 different seat recline angles)*, improper belt routing, or slack belts (results in higher chest deceleration). Possibly just an accident that would have resulted in a broken clavicle anyway (HANS or no HANS), but if there were 2 the same weekend that seems unlikely.

* For example, I have 2 different HANS devices, one for sports car use and one for formula car use.

[mousecatcher]

Bill Ziegler, World Challenge GTS driver blamed his broken collar bone at Long Beach, earlier this year, on his HANS. It was a rather straight forward off into the tires on an escape road.

<http://www.youtube.com/user/bzieg#p/u/1/cvQ0kp0tLbs>

Didn't look too bad from his on-board (footage on You-Tube). Certainly not broken clavicle worthy.

92 MPH impact pretty much head on ... seems pretty bad to me.

His comment is:

Brake failure. Broken collarbone, bruised ribs. Thank-you Hans Device.

He apparently meant it sarcastically but I bet it saved him from a neck injury.

[Daryl DeArman]

92 MPH impact pretty much head on ... seems pretty bad to me.

It's not the speed at impact, it's how quickly you stop. Hitting a bundle of tires is a whole lot better than a wall. I guess it depends on your expectations. I wonder what the data spiked at? 10g's, 20g's? You can also see it's at an angle which would load the HANS device asymmetrically, not sure what that does to the loads across the device, but obviously not evenly loaded like you feel when you tighted down your harnesses.

[Brian.Novak]

Now that I see that video, you're nuts if you think that impact isn't too bad Daryl. He's lucky he had it on. Without it I could see a neck injury in addition to other injuries. Do I have any proof? No. And neither do you about the HANS "causing" his clavicle break.

The Hans and the efforts of Dr. Hubbard, Jim Downing, and their team have greatly advanced motorsports safety. It has been thoroughly investigated by just about every motorsports organization on earth and then subsequently adopted by those same organizations. F1, CART, IRL, NASCAR, NHRA, ARCA, USAC, ALMS......

I for one would love to keep my head attached to my neck. I would also like to see other people do this. Stop trying to scare people off of it. Correct mounting and use of the HANS, which is exhaustively documented, will greatly reduce the chance of serious injury and death and its been proven multiple times over by every sanctioning body on the planet.

[Daryl DeArman]

Now that I see that video, you're nuts if you think that impact isn't too bad Daryl.

Wouldn't be the first time I was accused of being nuts. I guess we just have different expectations when it comes to safety.

Without it I could see a neck injury in addition to other injuries. Do I have any proof? No. And neither do you about the HANS "causing" his clavicle break.

I never said it caused his clavicle break. In fact, if you take the time to actually read what I wrote I pointed out that even if it did, the device is going to save many more lives than it takes.

The Hans and the efforts of Dr. Hubbard, Jim Downing, and their team have greatly advanced motorsports safety. It has been thoroughly investigated by just about every motorsports organization on earth and then subsequently adopted by those same organizations. F1, CART, IRL, NASCAR, NHRA, ARCA, USAC, ALMS.

Thoroughly investigated by just about every motorsports organization on earth? Okay. We'll have to agree to disagree on the meaning of thoroughly investigated. By the way, check out the Eric Medlen project. It's the only ongoing significant effort in NHRA safety. Backed by John Force racing, Castrol and FORD with a facility in Indianapolis where they continue to collect data and make improvements. A number of changes were made on the John Force team after Eric's death....not the least of which is that none of the John Force team members chose the HANS device.

If you believe the HANS is the best device for you and your situation; wear it. Competition amongst makers of the restraints will only make us safer. Look how much the HANS has changed over the years---yet 10 years ago many thought it was the best; evidently there was room for improvement AND THERE STILL IS.

Stop trying to scare people off of it.

It's ironic that we both want people to be safe by making educated decisions for themselves.

[swiftdrivr]

Quote

[Dr. Jim:

What is your opinion on this:

Assuming that for drivers with collarbones that protrude a lot, the HANS may indeed place heavy loads on the collarbone in a frontal crash, would it not be wise/effective to add thickness to the padding above and below the collarbone to help ensure that loads are more evenly spread to the shoulder and chest muscles? I would think that this could be done without compromising the performance of the HANS at all. ]



All I can say is, it seems logical. However, too much padding could possibly compromise the stability of the device and limit the ability of the device to prevent forward head motion. Obviously, I have no actual data on this, but I hope this is helpful.

[Modo]

Low probability piece of crap for small bore formula racing.....good for Indy/Sprint Cup racing and cement or high deceleration walls all around

PS all the other angles than straight forward and a tether catch for that.......... I would rather have my head-helmet parry the blow like a boxer instead of parry and tether snap your neck.....or new non-moving pad act as a fulcrum and do the same......this is all sort of speculation...I would think they (who is they, the famous question) have it figured out

[iamuwere]

Really? I have had a very hard hit at 100+ directly into concrete in "small bore racing" and I was very, very glad I had a HANS on. The fatal loads in testing can be seen in as little as 30mph impacts.

[Modo]

You win Mr. Saftey........Hey!! U drive a formula car and you are betting u r not going to end up in a wheel chair......I hope all the guys with kids driving formula cars out there have million buck coverage and a strong wife for the kids!!.....................Ok Hans is good....will have one next year as I have been involved in SCCA formula racing since 24 and will be 60 in a month (no 1980's - retooling).....my club..... and will do as told (correctly I hope as per this thread)..... period

[brownslane]

Geeze, It sure seems in F1, where we all can remember there was a spate of brain stem injuries from crashes.....then the introduction of HANS....and no more terrible injuries like before...in spite of the fact that huge crashes have continued.

Hmmmm. How many collar bones have been broken in pro racing (F-1, ALMS, Indycar, etc) since all drivers have been wearing them? To the best of my recollection.......none!! Even when ALMS cars "blow over" at 200-plus miles an hour, when Indycars whack the wall at similar speeds, when NASCAR tanks roll themselves into tin representations of cigars?

So, regardless of semantics, HANS devices prevent brain stem injuries, save lives, and doesn't seem to cause collarbone (clavicle) injuries.

This claim has no credence with me. Those who perpetuate this sort of rumour-propogation do the sport no service.

I tend to simply ignore this sort of sniping at a wonderful product, recognizing the total lack of value in the information.

[924RACR]

Somewhat timely thread...

One of my teammates took his F500 into a concrete wall at an oblique angle this past weekend. He now has a broken clavicle; yes, he does wear a HANS. Folded in a corner of the car, and some minor body damage.

He isn't upset about the break. Well, obviously, he's not thrilled to be recovering from a break, but he's happy he has no neck/head pain, injury or the like.

Did the HANS cause the break? Unfortunately, that can only be pure speculation. Did the HANS prevent worse injury? Again, pure speculation - we have no data on his crash, so we can't even speculate the loads to back-calculate the injury potential. Would he have experienced the break without a HANS? Again, can't do anything but speculate.

I'll leave the speculation to the biomechanical engineers.

Believe me, I'm no fan of H-D and SFI, but I do feel safe wearing a HANS; that's why I have replaced my ISAAC with such. And this isn't gonna stop me wearing mine.

[brownslane]

I'm with you, brother! Heck, even if HANS do cause collarbone injuries, I'd rather have a broken collarbone than a life as a vegetable.
Tom

PS. Congrats on your win last race! Well deserved to a hard worker, who has supported his wife's racing career while designing, building, developing and NOW WINNING in his own DSR!! A milestone, buddy!

[M.Sauce]

I don't think necessarily accepting collateral injuries because of the protection against major injuries takes our search for safety any further.I wondering if there is a device that will not break your collar bone and still protect you from major head/neck injuries.Does anyone know? Mike Sauce

[kea]

If you do not want your collarbone broken, then stop wearing any restraint that loads it upon a sudden stop against a solid object, which includes a shoulder harness (I do not recommended this!)

[cooleyjb]

I don't think necessarily accepting collateral injuries because of the protection against major injuries takes our search for safety any further.I wondering if there is a device that will not break your collar bone and still protect you from major head/neck injuries.Does anyone know? Mike Sauce

Safety Solutions stuff doesn't sit on your clavicle. Sit's behind your neck and has sled test numbers significantly better than HANS for some of them. One is now FIA cert'd too. The Hybrid.

I use the Hybrid Pro now after having HANS and DefNder too.

As Keith says above. I'm not sure if that difference will save the collarbone as the belts sit right there too. But the way it sits I imagine it should help a little bit.

[924RACR]

Exactly, agreed - either way, that spindly little chopstick of a bone is where we put all the load! LOL Straight-on, things tend to balance out and we're generally OK - but get in an oblique, and loads just don't like to distribute so well...

I'd still rather have belts than an airbag!

[Daryl DeArman]

I don't think necessarily accepting collateral injuries because of the protection against major injuries takes our search for safety any further.

Worth repeating.

[Brian]

I remember a decade ago in 2001, when I was trying to decide if I was going to buy a HANS my sister, who was a bio-mechanical engineer at GM in the passenger restraint group at the time, brought me a helmet and HANS that they had used in the sled testing that they had done in 1999 so I could see what it looked like. Also a video presentation on it by Dr John Melvin, who was part of the research team, and helped with the Dale Earnhardt investigation, and all the Mercedes SAE papers. What I remember is how big the HANS they tested was compared to the production models, and a lot of stuff from the videos that I have kept with me. One thing is how very superior the 6 point harness is compared to 5 point harness, and what actually happens to the body in a deceleration. Not what you think - you basically turn into a bag of jello and ooze all over the place, the stop motion video shots were amazing. The crotch straps are almost the most important part of controlling your body motion, they create a kind of fulcrum that lets the other straps do their job. As was stop motion video of an Indycar crash pre-HANS. The reason so few drivers were killed in those crashes is that they had their heads stopped by the steering wheel, as their whole bodies deformed enough to let their heads hit a steering wheel that was 2 feet further than they could normally stretch to belted in. Totally mind-changing. I ordered a HANS when you had to call up and order it on the phone, no web site and no distributors. You had to wait while they made it to order, they had no stock units on a shelf somewhere.

Brian

[Christopher Crowe]

I remember the day when people were resisted the use of 5 and 6 point belts passing through their legs (they were referred to then as "anti submarine belts" back then). And many the lantern-jawed hero would say, "Hey, I'd rather get killed than to have my nxxts taken off (and etc)"

All foolishness of course, but back then the SCCA had to have physicians come to tech seminars to explain that one's gonads were very tough indeed... how they couldn't be snatched-off by a crotch-belt in an accident, and how, even if they got squashed flat in same, they'd return to their original shape with no lasting ill effects, and etc.

Hard to believe how much people resist new safety devices that come into use in the sport. They resisted wearing helmets in the thirties, lap-belts in the Fifties ("I'd rather be thrown clear!") -- even roll cages on sprint cars in the Sixties (this because they would make the drivers over-brave and cause even more -- and more vicious -- accidents)!

Of course each of those safety devices saved many lives -- and we all know that now.

Yet still the occasional tale of someone being hurt by a newish safety device circulates. They always did.

And those stories were always bull****.

[924RACR]

Sorry, Chris - you're missing the point completely.

We're not suggesting the HANS is a bad thing. The question raised is whether or not there's a better answer out there.

If we stop asking questions, we stop learning.

After all, the HANS device came about because a racer asked the question, "is there any way to prevent this basal skull fracture?"

[Wren]

I don't think necessarily accepting collateral injuries because of the protection against major injuries takes our search for safety any further.I wondering if there is a device that will not break your collar bone and still protect you from major head/neck injuries.Does anyone know?

That device could well be the HANS device. A few people thinking that the HANS might have broken their collar bone is not the same thing as proof.

[Josh Pitt]

I don't think necessarily accepting collateral injuries because of the protection against major injuries takes our search for safety any further.I wondering if there is a device that will not break your collar bone and still protect you from major head/neck injuries.Does anyone know? Mike Sauce

the device does not cause broken collar bones. crashing and the impacts from the wreck may break collar bones.

anothor way to look at this, for those who dont wear or or feel the value of the HANS device, how many drivers wearing HANS devices have wrecked, and NOT broken their collar bones.

I run out of fingers on one hand counting that total....................

I had a freind who rolled his truck in high school. the cops said that if he had not been ejected from the truck that he would have died since the area he would have occoupied as the driver was now crushed.
he was thrown from the truck since the a-hole wasnt wearing a belt( 1982).

so now should we conclude that seat belts are dangerous to use?



for the record, my close friend broke their neck ( not racing) and is now a quadraplegic. I visit weekly and help feed lunch when i am there; a (potential)broken collar bone is quite OK with me if my odds of this type of injury are decreased.

Mike, do you currently wear a HANS or any other type of H+N device?

[924RACR]

...a (potential)broken collar bone is quite OK with me if my odds of this type of injury are decreased.

Oh, for sure - I feel the same way.

But I'd prefer if someday I didn't have to make such a compromise.

This is like the old "have you stopped beating your wife?" bogus question - of course we want to be safer. The premise that we must not want to be - if we don't think the HANS is the gateway to the promised land - is flawed and blatantly oversimplistic (not pointing that comment at you personally, Josh, please don't misunderstand).

[EACIII]

I just finished watching a Playboy video where they had Women driving in a demo derby and I could help but notice they were not wearing HANS devices. Now they weren't wearing any cloths either but that is besides the point.

Ed

[formulasuper]

I'm wondering why the part of the HANS that the shoulder straps go over are not made wider. Seems like that would allow the use of the wide 3" belts & help distribute the forces on the collar bones? However, there must be a reason they're narrow as they are.

[Modo]

I hope this thousand dollar neck brace works!!