Newbie seeking sugestions...

[joekarter]

At age 47, after 26 years of karting in the Pacific Northwest (with the last 8 years running a 250cc Superkart) I have decided to make the jump to automobile racing. After doing some homework, Formula Vee and Formula Ford seemed to be the most logical choices for me. Both provided the opportunity to step into a car at a reasonable price while continuing to drive on the tracks I am familiar with.

A Lazer L-85 Formula Vee went up for sale near me, and I made an appointment to go and see the car. It was the right price, within a reasonable driving distance with no need to ship the car from the East coast except…

I didn’t fit in the car! Literally I was too large for the for the drivers compartment. My legs wouldn’t fit through the eleven inch opening in the chassis and there was no way that my shoulders were going to fit inside the bodywork.

So, here is my question to the drivers of Formula Vee and Formula Ford cars: Which cars will a 5’ 8” man with a 40 inch waist fit into and still be able to drive the car competitively?

I am planning on going to some races and talk to the drivers, look at their cars and see if I find something I think I can fit into. But in the mean time, I thought I would reach out and get some input from other larger drivers of these cars. Any insight you can provide would be a big help.

Thank you for your time.

[lawyerbob]

I'm 5'8" and (gulp) about 200. I had an Adams and ti was too small for me. I recent'y acquired a Citation (being converted to Forumla First as we speak) and was stunned at how much more room there is. I'd suggest looking into the Citation FV.

my 2 cents

Bob

[Tiago Santos]

The Lazer is known for being just about the tightest car there is I'm 5'10", 135lbs or so, and I have trouble getting in and out. I do sort of fit, but I was bleeding from both of my shoulders after 3 sessions, still have a scar to prove it too.

You'll have to find something else, but there are plenty of cars out there that you could definitely fit into.

[Bob Posner]

Go to the Seattle double national Memorial Day weekend or call Jess Heitman 5032820159 to see what's for sale around Portland.

[Clyde]

Joekarter; I see the resposes you have gotten so far are from F/V drivers BUT if you like to "Tinker" then a F/F is the way to go, actually I am thinking of Club Ford as the older racecars were roomier. IF your area has the Original type rules where spending is controled you can race on a fairly level playing field. The new F/F type racing or using those engine rules in C/F is crazy; Aluminum Heads, F-3 clutches, data stuff, sticky tires, you wind up spending more on parts then on track-time. At 47 years old I do not think anyone is going to hire you as a "pro" driver so just have some good safe FUN. Please do not get caught up in the spending game.

[Campbell Motorsport]

Joe,

As the guy who has built many of the Lazers- I would not have recommended it to you based on your size. At 5'-10" - 150#, I fit fine and was able to drive it for many years with no bleeding shoulders. There are several drivers bigger then I am that have successfully driven the Lazer over the years- but they have worked to make the car comfortable. Every person defines comfort differently. Always make sure you sit in the car, preferably with your race gear.

There are several cars availabe that would fit you much better- the Citation is one of them, but there are several others.

Good luck in your hunt.

Larry Campbell

[Tiago Santos]

The Laser is known for being just about the tightest car there is I'm 5'10", 135lbs or so, and I have trouble getting in and out. I do sort of fit, but I was bleeding from both of my shoulders after 3 sessions, still have a scar to prove it too.

You'll have to find something else, but there are plenty of cars out there that you could definitely fit into.

edit: just as a response to Larry's comment further down - yup, I drove a Laser as a rental and didn't do much (anything, really) to make it more comfortable. I'm sure given a couple hours, I could figure out a way of driving it without much pain

Bleeding shoulders or not, I'd drive another Laser if I could! To hell with the pain, it's only 20 minutes at a time. In fact I was (and deep down, still am..) very tempted to go pick up the one in Oregon that you were looking at. It's just not the right time for another "project" for me, but I will one day own a Laser..

[edschubert]

I used to be 6-1, 240 (40 in. waist) and fit in my Citation fine. It is posted for sale.

[Daryl DeArman]

I'd suggest before you buy anything that you find something you fit in AND can rent for a weekend or test day.

Having spent time in a 250 Superkart you are likely to be absolutely bored to death with the performance anywhere this side of a FA/FB car. For reference the 250 Superkart record at Laguna Seca is right in between the FA and FB records. In a 30 minute race at Laguna you would lap the record setting FF.

WIth all your time in karts I'm certain you didn't start in 250's. If you think you would have fun racing a Sr.Sportsman kart on a big track FV will be a blast (you pay big for each mistake, there is no acceleration to speak of, the top speed is woeful, but there will plenty of competition)

FF laps are probably similar to a laydown rotax, maybe a bit faster. FV's are 20+ seconds a lap slower than a 250 kart at Laguna.

For me it's been about the quality of the competition and my ability to be competitive without eating top ramen. I karted 125 shifters before going to Sr.Sportsman. After road racing various cars for almost 20 years my last car was a FV. So clearly speed hasn't been the reason I've chosen various classes. YMMV

[joekarter]

[FONT=Verdana]Thanks to all you have replied so far. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Bob: I may try to get up there for the Seattle race. I will for sure be at the race in Portland next month. I will also give Mr. Heitman a call. He was the person maintaining the car I looked at last weekend.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Clyde: F/F is my other choice, but the cars seem to be a bit more expensive to start. Of course the fact that I have a 1977 Pinto sitting in my driveway right at this very moment that I could steal the motor out of it a thought as well. I keep looking though as vintage racing could be a lot of fun too. I have been playing the spending game now for the last eight years: have all the data, different compounds of race tires, and on and on. Now it is time for some fun...[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Larry and Tiago: Yes, the owner says right in his ad that the car was not for larger drivers, but it was close enough and priced right that I just couldn't pass up the opportunity to go and see it. I sure wish it would have worked out, it is a really nice car and well maintained from what I could see.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana]Keep the information coming. Sooner or later I will find what I am looking for![/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana] [/FONT]

[Hardingfv32]

"Now it is time for some fun..."

Please define your meaning of fun?

Brian

[BLS]

Hello Joe. If you have an interest in running vintage FV, then you might want to look at an old Zink, C4 or C5 I believe. I am 6'4, 230 and barely fit that back in the 70's, but that was a result of height. Your height would be ok and I think the width would be fine. Now, I'm 58 and thinking about getting back in after a little over 30 years away. Almost nothing fits me that can be competitive so I'm looking at building to maximize the space.

In fact, this is my first post, been reading to get caught up.

Regards,
Barry

[veefan]

The Lazer is a great car but also know to have one of the smallest cockpits. It's really designed for small drivers, I'm 6'1" 235 lbs and couldn't get in one. I've had several Vee's, bang for the buck you can't go wrong with a Caldwell D-13 formula vee. One can easily be found for $5,000, and they are still very competitive in regionals. It would real easy to sell the car if you decide to go back to Superkart as compared to trying to sell a $15,000 to $20,000 car.

The D-13 original design was capable of handling a 6'7" driver!

[budawe]

nothing beats sitting in a few cars. Bill Noble was over 6' and 200# but did fit in Lynx's and Caracals. If you define fun as getting together with friends and enjoying your car, vintage is a great way to do it. If competition is your idea of fun then regional or national racing is the way to go. The FF will cost a lot more, especially if you hurt it, but it will be faster and more challenging to work on. I agree with the other postter about speed and your cart experience. The vees are really slow on the straights. Jess in Portland is a great guy to talk to and knows virtually everyone in the NW. Welcome to our world, good luck.

[gbmetcalf]

Joe Welcome!
As stated above nothing beats sitting in the car with your driving gear on. I am am 5'9" and weigh 225# I have raced a Lynx and wedged myself in a Protoform both were accessable for someone of my size. The Lynx did beat up my backside quite a bit as I was hitting the frame corners with my hips.
There are many shapes and sizes of formula vee's out there, good luck on your search.
Believe me if I had my choice I'd have a Lazer. I have loved those cars ever since I saw the first one.

G.

[BLS]

Off topic, slightly. How was the steering set up in the Caldwell? Showing the guy with his feet against the front beam, but no steering rods in sight. Does the pitman arm run between the feet, making left foot braking impossible? I don't rememeber how the D13 was set up and I have the "Tall" issue myself.

[Albatross]

Each year about this time Apexspeed receives inquiries such as yours. There could not be a better place to find suggestions from the knowlegable membership. Unfortunately, the FVee and Formula Ford representation and competition has greatly diminished here in the Pacific northwest. I refer to that problem as it is being openly addressed in the ICSCC. And, unfortunately not much better in both of the SCCA regions. Please keep in mind that: "you get what you pay for" as it relates to speed and quality of car. Your having driven high performance carts would indicate to me that you would want to carry over that type of performance in your next racing venue. I don't think that you will find formula Vee as rewarding in comparison. However, those dedicated drivers who have been developing and racing FVee(s) for years are truly a great group of racers, almost like a brotherhood, some of whom have raced in that class for over 20 years. So, too, in the Formula Ford classes: historic, club and more modern. In addition to selecting the type of car to race you should consider which club(s) will offer you the most racing for the type of car that you choose. You should check the schedules of the SCCA regions, ICSCC and SOVREN. Also, two of the best engine builders in the higher performance classes are found in the Portland area.

[veefan]

Off topic response.. this is a picture of the front of my D-13 the tie rods and pitman arm are all above and behind drivers feet. My D-13 has tons of room even with the addition of a lot extra bars.

joekarter, show up at any track; any regional race; and ask just about any FV driver to sit in his car, you'll be sold.

[BLS]

Veefan, thanks for the picture. One question, how high are the tierods above the pan? Just approximate. I have size 13 feet and if I go this route it requires a fairly high pitman arm.

[Daryl DeArman]

My feet are size 12. I had a D13. The feet go between the tie rods and the pedals. Left foot braking is not possible UNLESS you have an additional pedal pad on the left side of the pitman arm. The pitman arm does not rotate enough (under normal circumstances) to come in contact with your feet.

[veefan]

The tie rods are 10.5" above the floor pan and the pitman sits about 9". I've seen a few D-13's with the boxes tilted which "could give more" clearance (pic below). I have mine set to limit bump steer. I jumped in the car and I can left foot brake and have a size 10.5 shoe.

[BLS]

Veefan, Daryl, thanks very much. With my size 13 "boats", I need about 12 inches, at a minimum, to clear. I don't mind the tierods behind my feet, but the pitman arm is trouble. There are, of course, designs to change this, but nothing appeals to me completely. It has been a long time since I've driven, but left foot braking was important to me. I can only assume I will still want to be able to easily left foot brake.

I'll play with this on my old Zink and see how it could be worked out.

Again thanks for the info, and Joe, I apologize for hogging your thread. I'll quit now.

[Daryl DeArman]

As long as we are talking about getting larger racers in these little cars (OP is 5'8" w/40" waist)...

You don't drive a D13 with your feet straight up and down. To get low enough in the car you've got to scoot down in the seat and your legs/knees are splayed out like a frog (quite strange at first). Your (my) heels are tucked in fairly close and my toes pointing outwards kind of like this " \ / " which means you don't need quite the height you'd imagine.

[Bruce]

Since you are on the West Coast there are two FV's that are constructed, raced, raced competitively, and you will easily fit. They are the Mysterian, althought for legal reasons a new one can not be called Mysterian and the Crusader, which is still under original ownership.
We also have a web site for formula car racers on the Left Coast http://norcalfv.proboards.com/index.cgi?

[joekarter]

[FONT=Verdana]Just a note to thank all who chimed in on my question.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]Yes, the fact that I have been in a superkart and the speed differential to either a FV or an FF is a factor. But my priorities have changed and so is how much I am willing to spend to go racing. I just can’t justify purchasing a 10K+ car in this economy to get into FB or higher. Add to the purchase price the possibility of having to travel to see the car, shipping the car from where ever it is to Oregon (assuming it is not within a reasonable drive with $4+/gal gas) and any other things the car might need and I would be out of racing for a couple of years![/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]I guess I am looking at a cost effective way to continue racing and provide a few more safety features than I currently have in the superkart.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]It does concern me that the car counts in these classes may be down in the PNW. I have been running in an average class size of five, and maybe three will finish. In the last 5 years, the largest class we had was eleven. But I can check out class sizes when I visit the tracks next month. SCCA used to publish car counts per region. Do they still do that? Anyone know where I can find this information?[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]I will continue my search and I hope to see you next year at the track in whatever I find.[/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana]Thank you all.[/FONT]

[veefan]

http://www.motorsportreg.com/index.cfm/event/calendar

Hi check out this reg. sight. On the right side of the page after you click on register for an event is a " View current registration list" which will give you the numbers...

I played around with my Porsche 930 Turbo in PCA club racing/time trials (many moons ago), brutal speed, amazing braking... I started SCCA racing in formula vee a few years ago and also thought the[FONT=Verdana] speed differential [/FONT]would be an issue, but it's not. Racing is Racing. They say that if you learn how to drive a FV fast, you'll be fast in any class... I'm still trying to figure out how to do that!

Good luck with your search.

[Daryl DeArman]

[URL]I started SCCA racing in formula vee a few years ago and also thought the[FONT=Verdana] speed differential [/FONT]would be an issue, but it's not. Racing is Racing.

That is very true. However, when you don't have anybody to battle with the ride is everything...so big car counts with folks separated by tenths a lap is good racing no matter how slow. Small car counts with folks separate by seconds is boring unless you have an E-ticket ride.

[joekarter]

http://scca.org/documents/Club_Event...pation-MAR.pdf

I found the SCCA 2011 regional car counts and I must admit I was a little suprised. In the NORPAC region:

FV=1
FF=2
F1000=0
SM=19
SRF=11
59 total entries at 1 race this year through March.

I guess I would have thought there would be a lot more FV/FF running? I guess I thought there would have been alot more entries period! I guess the economy in Oregon and Washington is taking it's toll on all forms of racing. I also went out to MotorsportsReg as mentioned in another post and found the same sorts of car counts for the upcoming races. Only Vintage had more with 9 FVs entered for the SOVERN race.

Can anyone from the NW tell me if this is just early season low turnout or are the car counts always this low for FV/FF?

[Hardingfv32]

It is a moving target. The economy is affecting both. CFF was very big before the economy tanked while FF has not been good for many years. Vintage FF seems to be were the action is in the NW now. Possibly wealthier (and older) participants that are less effected by the economy.

You still never defined "fun". The reality is that if fun is being competitive and winning JUST occasionally, you are going to end up spending the same money as you did in karts if not more.

Brian

[Daryl DeArman]

I know I could run a Nationally competitive FF effort cheaper than I could run an equivalent campaign in 250 Superkarts.

Given your $10K car budget your choices are going to be limited. Regional FV, Regional Club Ford (maybe) or a Vintage FV....that's about it.

[joekarter]

I guess I would define fun as being able to race wheel to wheel with someone for more than a lap or two and come off the track with a big smile on my face. Far too often I see the green flag, watch the leader disappear into the distance and the others fade away in my mirrors only to be left on the track by myself for 30 minutes or until someone from another class comes along to pass or be passed.

[smsazzy]

http://scca.org/documents/Club_Event...pation-MAR.pdf

I found the SCCA 2011 regional car counts and I must admit I was a little suprised. In the NORPAC region:

FV=1
FF=2
F1000=0
SM=19
SRF=11
59 total entries at 1 race this year through March.

I guess I would have thought there would be a lot more FV/FF running? I guess I thought there would have been alot more entries period! I guess the economy in Oregon and Washington is taking it's toll on all forms of racing. I also went out to MotorsportsReg as mentioned in another post and found the same sorts of car counts for the upcoming races. Only Vintage had more with 9 FVs entered for the SOVERN race.

Can anyone from the NW tell me if this is just early season low turnout or are the car counts always this low for FV/FF?

There are not many Vee's running regionals. We are all running nationals these days. We typically have 7-12 Vees at any given national. We had only 5 at thunderhill this year, but the snow and chains required to get there kept some at home. In Portland last week we had 8. I expect Seattle to have about 8 or 9. 4th of July usually has a larger turn out.

Also, the race in Mission BC the weekend of August 6th I think it is should have around 30-40 entries.

I'm in the Seattle area and I am happy to help you get into a Vee. Give me a call or email me and we can chat.

[Hardingfv32]

Joekarter

"Far too often I see the green flag, watch the leader disappear into the distance and the others fade away in my mirrors only to be left on the track by myself for 30 minutes or until someone from another class comes along to pass or be passed."

You are describing most West Coast SCCA FF and FV races. Sure, you will occasionally match up with someone and have a great race. I would estimate on the order of 25% of the time. You are trying to match up cars with equal prep, tire heat cycles, and driver skills. It takes big fields to accomplish that.

Without a doubt, Spec Miata and to a lesser extent Spec Racer Ford are your ONLY choices to meet your stated objective. The cars are spec and tires are not as sensitive to heat cycles. All you are left with is matching up with drivers of equal skill on a given day.

Very easy to rent one of these cars to see if it is what you want.

Brian

[veefan]

It's a shame that the FV car count is so low on the west coast. Honestly you should move to the Northeast, we have a regional race in two weeks and we have 16 cars pre-registered for NHMS! I'm sure more will should up for the race... including me if I can get my new car finished!

[Hardingfv32]

Remember... nothing lasts forever. Enjoy while you can.

Most of us in the West were around when the fields were very big. We had our day in the sun.

Brian

[Tiago Santos]

We just had another race today with 10 or 11 vees.. We're pretty far north, but we're still on the west coast the vees are coming back up here, hopefully it'll spread south! Most of us are planning a trip to Seattle later this year, take 10 or so cars down there and try to get some more drivers excited enough to dog up their cars from under the barn crap!

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Not sure where you are getting your car counts but the first SF regional had:

• FF - 3
• CF - 10
• FV - 8
• FST - 1
• FC - 2

I realize that these are not stellar numbers but not horrible either.

Last year in the SF Region the FV's probably averaged 10-12 per race for regionals. Regionals have higher car counts then nationals in SF region.

As Brian stated, back in the 1980's we used to have 30-45 car FV fields. Of course back in the 1980's gas was $.60 per gallon.

[Daryl DeArman]

VARA has had 3 races so far this season the FV count has been 9, 9 and 12.

If you aren't a good driver with a pretty darn good car you will see the leaders disappear. If you are a decent driver with a decent car you will watch the others disappear in your mirrors.

Same thing I experienced early in my karting days. Don't know how many 3-5 place finishes I had in fields of 20+ karts without anybody to race against.

Either need to not be so serious about your effort and try to do more with less...which may give you folks in the middle/back to race against or step up the game and try to keep the leaders from disappearing. Personally, I was not interested in doing either in FF so I sold it and bought a very competitive FV so that my ability would be the only variable.

[Albatross]

Back years ago we had two predominatly large classes from which to choose: FVee and FF. Now that potential "economic group" is spread out into: Spec Miata, Spec Racer Ford, Club Ford, Historics, Modern Ford, FST, and perhaps a few others not withstanding a large economic "hang over" created by successive Washington administrations interested in just one thing: getting re-elected.

[rickb99]

At age 47, after 26 years of karting in the Pacific Northwest (with the last 8 years running a 250cc Superkart) I have decided to make the jump to automobile racing. After doing some homework, Formula Vee and Formula Ford seemed to be the most logical choices for me. Both provided the opportunity to step into a car at a reasonable price while continuing to drive on the tracks I am familiar with.....

Joe, I'm an active member of SCCA and have been involved with the club in one way or another since 1957. That said.......

If you want to go racing in the Northwest with a GOOD amount if races per year at 5 (soon to be 6) tracks with nice sized fields in FF, CF (and we hope to get the FV's back soon, somehow) then you need to look at ICSCC. There are two affliliated clubs in the Portland area, Team Continental and Cascade Sports Car Club.

Check it out. You can find schedule of races and entry lists in the race results/entry area.

http://www.icscc.com/

AND they have a MOST EXCELLENT novice racer program. Something that is almost nonexistant in SCCA these days.