OK curious....about oils ....gear box/ring to be exact.
Every manufacture has a brand they like (Taylor Redline)...and rightfully so....my question is.... these old gear boxes ...is there really something out there that protects and makes it a bit better....give it more longevity?
Some like SHOCKPROOF or Mobile synthetic...some like dino oils...but is there real evidence that says some are way above others.
So... Craig Taylor, long before he flew off into the sunset with Marci, told me to use Redline lightweight shockproof. And that was good enough for me.
Then, that Keith Averill fellow from Michigant told me the same thing. i began to wonder.
We had the same advice about Red Line, but used both Mobil 1 Synthetic and the Red Line later on.
ALWAYS felt better about paying far more for the Red Line and, the ohh so cool color when that 1 qt. drains out when you open the back case up on a Reynard
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CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
I used the greenstuff for a season, but switched to the redstuff when the locals had no green available. I found it made my shifting much smoother, less clash, etc.
I purchased a used steel diff a few years ago from a well known individual in California that manufactures race car parts. He recomended Mobil 1 Syn. due to the protection it offered. He felt that once the oil got warmed up, the drag of the thicker would not be so bad.
I have been using that, but confess to trying out Redline this year. I have no evidence to support one or the other.
I have tried about all the big players for gearbox lubes. We used Amsoil in our superbikes for years. After the results in the FE sequential with Amsoil have stuck with that. Now using it in the Atlantic. Every car I own comes with a gearbox that most love to hate.
The FE box and the NST have been rock solid. Improved shifting and cleaner upon draining.
We have been so happy we now sell it. Its not a money maker I sell it because I know it works.
I still have a manual for the Staffs SMT 86/10. Staffs recommended Amsoil, so I used Amsoil 75/90 Severe Duty gear oil......our last Cosworth put a lot of power through the box, and teardowns looked much better than expected.
I will use the same product in my new Raltswiftdallara 017.....you know, the one with the 315 hp V4 Judd....
That's the Redline lightweight shockproof oil. The heavier one is red.
I hate it. I tried it for a couple of seasons and had more gear wear than with Valvoline synthetic, which I use now (again).
I've been using Valvoline 75W90 Synthetic in my racecars for years. I still have the original (1994) R&P in my Citation 95SFZ Staffs box, and it has seen only the Valvoline. YMMV.
In my tow vehicle (1974 G30 Chevy Van with over 290K miles) differential, I have used Amsoil 75W140 synthetic (used to be 85W140) for the last 100K, and am still on the original R&P there also.
I believe Amsoil, in general, is probably better (and more expensive, for sure) than Valvoline, but I have had great results with both. Of course, the van puts much higher contact loads on the gear faces, so, what I am using where depends on the application.
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Dave Weitzenhof
Last edited by DaveW; January 4th, 2011 at 8:44 AM.
Reason: corrected error in van gear-oil viscosity
I've also used the mobil-1 synthetic gear oil in the mk-9, although I didn't put enough time on it to get an opinion on wear. With the redstuff, I got more than 50 weekends out of a LD-200 R&P, and although there's some dog wear due to my ham-fisted shifting, the rest of the box is doing OK as well.
Back in the 80's I had a toyota supra. First winter in indianapolis The car would shift out of 1st but not go into second. to get back into 1st took a total stop. 2nd took waaaaay too much RPM for a cold motor. The dealer put ATF in the box which worked until it warmed up and then the synchros didn't work at all.
I put Amsoil in the box and never had another problem.
The most important element to gear oil is the right viscosity for the operating conditions.
Synthetic oils are made from poly alpha olefins, esters, diesters,
Most synthetic (a rather fuzzy term) oils have a relatively flat vis curve over their operating temp range. Thats good, because HP is lost churning high viscosity conventional oil when its cold. Synthetics are superior at high temperatures because of their oxidation resistance.
The wiki page has a good explanation of the API GL gear oil classes.
Synthetic oils have the advantage of a very flat viscosity curve over a wide temperature range. That means in cold weather, synthetic oil will flow enough so the starter will turn the engine over and the oil pump will suck oil from the pan and feed to the bearings at 40 below. Its called pour point.
At the other end of the temperature spectrum, a gearbox getting fed 250 HP on a 110 degree day must still have enough viscosity with synth oil to keep a boundary layer on meshing gear teeth even though the oil temp is over 260F. The gear tooth mesh surface temp can go very high. The oil is there as much for cooling as it is lubrication.
The next element is the additive package. Gear oils use a significant amount of antiwear additive such as ZDDP. Automotive gear oils and heavy duty industrial gear oils also use an EP additive because of the extreme loads. The EP additives are usually sulfur-phosporus-boron compounds, polysulfides or esters of chorendic acid.
The right combination of base synthetic oil viscosity and additive package is what makes the gears last.
Next week, I will see if I can get the baseline new oil analysis info from the lab I use for work. I can see if I can post results for some of the more popular brands. Most oil companies have "cut sheets" that provide the basic chemical and physical properties of their products. Unfortunately much of the literature is marketing for the uninformed. If anyone has specific requests for a particular brand and grade, let me know.
I am not a lubrication engineer, but I used to be responsible for the lubrication program for 4000 pieces of machinery in an oil refinery, including steam & gas turbines, gearboxes of all sizes and speeds, centrifugal pumps and compressors.
Regards,
Dan Wise
__________________ "Driving a Lotus is a triumph of bravery over intelligence." Stirling Moss
As an Amsoil Dealer I am offering lubricant advise and healthy discounts to Apexspeed members. Feel free to PM or email me with your specific lubrication needs.
Happy New Year
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"The visibility at the best of times is liable to be a bit hazy due to clouds of ignorance"... Carroll Smith
With the reduction in ZDDP levels of easily obtainable synthetics (e.g anything you can buy at Wal-mart) I thought it was a great opportunity for STP again. STP is just PAO + ZDDP.
However, after numerous inquiries, they refused to tell me how much ZDDP was in their product, claiming it was a "trade secret", even though I explained to them that folks that really care about this stuff might be interested in using STP to concoct their own witch's brew rather than trying to find a Joe Gibbs dealer or paying monster shipping fees.
There are products that give you the info, like ZDDPlus, but you can't just go down the the corner store and buy it.
The Mobil1 4T and V-Twin motorcycle oils are widely available at about the price of regular M1 and have the levels of ZDDP that were once in the original product. The clue bird landed at Mobil and they realized that nobody will put enough miles on a motorcycle to poison the cats with oil by-products. Maybe one of these days they will make a lighter product. Right now they are 10W-40 and 20W-50.
I have used STP on bearings and such when re-building motors to protect from the first dry start. Stuff sure is slick! It's a serious hazard on the garage floor.
Back on gear oils - I recently took my gearbox and ran it through the hot tank and noticed that the Redline stuff leaves a thick goo inside of the hollow components and various nooks and crannies. One of the things that is nice about Redline is that it doesn't stink nearly as bad as Mobil or Valvoline synthetics, and those stink a lot less than the dino oils.
With the reduction in ZDDP levels of easily obtainable synthetics (e.g anything you can buy at Wal-mart) I thought it was a great opportunity for STP again. STP is just PAO + ZDDP.
What level of ZDDP are you looking for? As you can see from the attached link, M1 15W50 has zinc and phosphorus levels (1200 and 1300 ppm respectively) considerably higher than the other common grades and pretty close to the level in the motorcycle and racing blends. I buy it at Walmart for about $24 per 5qt jug.
15W50 red label no longer available at our Wal-mart, nor any of the ones within 100 mi or so of here. Might be a California thing, as out emissions warranties go three years longer than the feds. Given the temps out here I'd think a lot of folks would opt for it, especially on older vehicles and all the a/c beetles and buggies. Might be that it's just competing for shelf space with all their other BS blends like "high mileage", "Truck and SUV", etc, but its been unavailable off the shelf in this area for at least three years.
Back on gear oils - I recently took my gearbox and ran it through the hot tank and noticed that the Redline stuff leaves a thick goo inside of the hollow components and various nooks and crannies. One of the things that is nice about Redline is that it doesn't stink nearly as bad as Mobil or Valvoline synthetics, and those stink a lot less than the dino oils.
The sulfur based EP compounds are what make gear oils stink.
Redline is based here in Benicia. They guys on the tech line are really helpful. They might tell you what type additive package they use in their gear oil, or I might be able to find out through the lab.
STP contains ZDDP and a viscosity index improver. It also increases the base viscosity of the oil. STP is great as an assembly lube, but adding a can to the sump raises the viscosity and pour point, so I would be reluctant to use it in cold weather.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aspenripper
As an Amsoil Dealer I am offering lubricant advise and healthy discounts to Apexspeed members. Feel free to PM or email me with your specific lubrication needs.
Happy New Year
Ed, Amsoil is a good product. Their products consistently beat the majors on ASTM testing methods, and work well in severe operating conditions that conventional and some synthetic oils from the majors can't match. I have used their products and they perform as advertised.
I cringe when the Royal Purple guy comes around with his literature and pitch. Drives me nuts. But the stuff called "RP sealing fluid" I have tried for problem applications such as dual mechanical seals in toxic or hazardous applications is the only fluid that would effectively reduce seal face friction and carry away the seal generated heat. We used their gear oil in some overloaded worm gear drives. The boxes stopped failing after using RP gear oil. The purple color makes it hard to visually evaluate oil condition for me, but I have to give them credit.
Matt,
I give that Mobil1 chart to the guys at work to let them choose what oil to use for their cars and toys when they ask for advice on Mobil1. Exxon/Mobil does not provide any more info than their lawyers will allow, but sometimes there is info in their MSDS sheets.
The API lube oil committee and the auto and truck OEMs set the standards for engine and gear oils. The API insists that all engine oils be physically compatible between brands so that a car owner can top up his engine oil with a quart from a different brand and not cause a reaction between base oils and additives.
I once had a compatibility problem when our bulk oil supplier didn't flush all the diesel engine oil from his bulk tank and packaging line when he supplied us with turbine oil. The mix of additives plus a little condensate from the steam turbine literally filled our filter housing with a vaseline like gel and caused an 8000HP steam turbine and hydrogen compressor to trip on low oil pressure. It took us two days to clean out the mess from the oil system, plus the lost gasoline production.
One more thing. The major oil companies work to meet the API standards at the lowest possible cost because its a price/cost sensitve market. The speciality companies are blenders who formulate what they think is superior and simply pass on the cost for what they consider a premium product.
Sorry for the long posts. I'll shut up now.
__________________ "Driving a Lotus is a triumph of bravery over intelligence." Stirling Moss
STP in the blue bottle is the really thick stuff. They make or made what was called "4 cylinder" STP and it came in a red bottle. It is not as thick as the blue but still has ZZDP in it. Somewhere I once saw how much for both? I looked for the red stuff for years and gave up, but a couple of weeks ago I found it in a local Big Lots store. I don't really have a need for it now but bought some anyway.
Well nice to see everyone is well versed regarding lubricants.
I will add that many including myself at times are focused on overall levels or the ppm of ZDDP etc. What we forget is that it is the overall formulation of the various components not just the individual amounts of those items .
We all know you can stop into Pep Boys and purchase a pint of your favorite zinc based additive to mix with your oil. How many racers on this forum do that ? My gut tells me not many . Maybe a good poll question.
The reality with most quality oils are basic. Is the oil the proper weight? Not too heavy for cold starts and will it handle the heat when hot. Is it clean ? Is it full ? Do you have a good idea when to change it ? Do you analyze your oil periodically ? Small amounts of residual old oil in hoses etc. can make fresh oil look very dirty. Oil analysis is cheap and can be very helpful.
Engines are not cheap, use a quality oil and stick with the basics above . Several engine builders are firm believers in changing filters often while just topping off the oil level, providing you are using a high quality oil. Protect your investment use a quality oil that you trust.
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"The visibility at the best of times is liable to be a bit hazy due to clouds of ignorance"... Carroll Smith
ZDDP has been a big topic on the Porsche BBS the last few years as the oils have been reducing additives to increase pollution equipment life, this website has lots of good info:
If you look through it you can find how much STP or GM EOS to add but also a warning on what boosting can do, there are also many oils with their additive packages listed, you can also go to www.pelicanparts.com and search the forums as 911's have flat tappet motors that can have excess wear if you dont keep the levels up. personally I use Mobil 0-40 European as it has high levels and add a bottle of the motorcycle M-1 to make me feel good, it is also available at Walmart.
Back when I had cars with a seperate gearbox(!)...
I ran BG Products 75w/90 in my FM Mk9 gearbox.
For a few years the Pro Atlantics were sponsored by BG and some ran it in those boxes w/ great results.
I ran the Redline blue/green lightweight at first, but it seemed more like grease than lube. For saure it works well - hell all the major brands do, it's just the mess turned me offa Redline.
General Formula Car Discussion
Oil...and all that know
? Do you have a good idea when to change it ? Do you analyze your oil periodically ? Small amounts of residual old oil in hoses etc. can make fresh oil look very dirty. Oil analysis is cheap and can be very helpful.
