I'm not writing this to force anyone to stay away from the dc region scca events but want to share my horrible experiance with anyone who cares. The problem started last sunday at the marrs 10 event at summit point.
I have two swift .008's that I race regularly at summit. At marrs 10 I was competing in FA. At the start of my race I had a minor gear box issue but it was enough to keep me stranded on the outside between turns 9 and 10. Promptly the worker came to me and asked if he could push me into the grass I told him please do. Within a few minutes the tow personnel arrived. One guy jumped out and emediatly started to wrap a towstrap around my front wing! I yelled to him that the roll hoop has a place to mount a tow bar in, and the wing would probably rip off causing more of a mess a potentially very dangerous situation. Before
I could finish this sentance he replied I'm in charge here don't tell me what to do. When I relized he wasn't going to even consider what I was telling him I got out(your not supposed to but being stuck in a car that wont move in the middle of a hot track with wing parts all over and a truck dragging a tow strap does'nt seem any safer, actually seems much more dangerous). Once I got out he started to listen to me and I explained that I cary a small bar in the seat pads of the car just for that reason. All this happening a few feet from the car he said I got one and after running back to his truck it did'nt fit.
Frustrated he then asked for mine. I got back in the car he hooked me up with my bar started to drive off and the knot he tied came lose. He jumped out and started to yell at me" this is your fault' this is your fault" pointing at me while the track is still hot and cars a flying by! He went back to his truck for a rope that has a hook on it and hooked me up and towed me in. He stopped at the tech shed and one of the girls got out of the truck unhooked me and said that a guy in the tech shed wanted to talk to me. I took my steering wheel off and the tow guy came running over pointing and shouting"I have'nt released you put the wheel back on, i'm in charge here until you are released" I put the wheel on no more than 5 secounds went by then he said your released.
The guy in the tech shed said before I leave for the day I need to go report to the tower. About an hour later I was finished loading up and stopped at the tower on my way out. I went to the second floor and stood next to Rich Lorenz waiting for him to finish a conversation with some other stewards. He turned to me and said " yes, what do you need?" I explained that I was asked to report there before I left for the day. He told me that I would need to speak to Dave Gomberg but he was'nt available at that moment and to wait. I asked if he had an idea of how long, he responded hopefully 15 minutes. I told him ok but I will need to go down to my truck and turn the a/c on for my dog who was in the back. He looked at me and said "no your not going down there" my reply "yes I'am" his reply "no your not open a window" my reply "I'm turning the a/c for her" Larry Oliver another official who witnessed this stepped in and said" Dave go take care of your dog just come back soon" Rich Lorenz then turned to me and pointed, almost poking my chest, and said "you better not leave this track, you better not leave this track" I exlpained why would I leave I came up here to see you guys in the first place?, he then got the last word in saying "you better not leave this track!" I met with Dave Gomber about 30 minutes later near my truck and he said that i would have to meet with the stewards of the meet and listen for my name on the loud speaker.
About an hour passed when my name was called I met with them and told them what had happened between turn 9 and 10, they told me they would call me tuesday to let me know what if any action would be taken. I received a certified letter the following week stating that in order to avoid any penalties i would have to work with the tow crew at the next race I attend at summit.
I will work with the tow crew to avoid any penalties, I will NEVER RACE at another DC Region scca event!!! I have heared horror stories about the DC region plenty of times before but never imagined anything like this. I can race at plenty of other tracks, and can think of plenty of other things to be doing on my sundays than racing with these fools.
Dave Yaakov
Last edited by DB4 Tim; September 16th, 2010 at 7:08 PM.
WDCR is a Spec Miata Region. You're driving an open-wheel car. If they can get the open-wheel contingent small enough to do away with the run group, they can have another group for Miatas.
We all know Larry is a stand-up guy and you've added another confirmation.
Maybe we need an emoticon for wayward officials - (_*_) There have been a few threads of late that might have used it......
They were going to place you under tow during the race when you were off the racing surface? Just off or well off? The tracks out here rarely tow while the track is hot unless they need to remove a guy to a safe location, and they usually wait to finish the job after the checker.
What section of the GCR was referenced - the one about not obeying an official?
But look at the bright side - if you never race another SCCA event at Summit you are off the hook (pun intended) Unfortunately it's one more open wheel guy gone from the DC region that was getting a pretty bad reputation a couple years back as not very open-wheel friendly.
Anxiously awaiting the "two sides to every story" post........
The car was in the grass but just off the racing surface. This is what the letter said word for word "The court recognizes that some of your actions were intended to be helpful to the process. However, it is the decision of the court that the hook-up of your car could have been, and should have been, accomplished much more quickly, and that other of your actions, though possibly unintentional, contributed to the delay and to the lack of safety for both you and the ES personnal." They did not give me a specific GCR rule violation except that they mentioned "The prompt and safe removal of a car is a shared responsibilty."
I understand that there are rules to be followed but at what point does the SCCA and some of their power thirsty volunteers understand that we are the customers.
Sounds like you're being held accountable for the actions of an incompetent tow truck operator. What sanctions would he have faced if your wing got ripped off in the middle of a hot track?
__________________
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
'I will work with the tow crew to avoid any penalties,'
Sounds like the tow truck operator should take some training as well.
"The prompt and safe removal of a car is a shared responsibilty."
When the tow truck operator attempts to hook up to a wing it is pretty obvious he may be in charge but he is not competent.
Just because the tow strap came off once, while inconvienent, is simply a mistake. Anything more than a comment from the Steward is going overboard.
I've had tow truck operators try to hook up to less than idea areas of cars but never directly to a wing. Had the operator tried to hook up to the proper place originally there most likel;y been no issue.
you see labels that say things like > "not a step" or other specific to a site instruction labels.......so.......
apparently there are idiots that need open wheel cars to have labels like > "tow here" and "do not tow here" on the hoop or wings or other important places.
I had a Sebring tow to the roll hoop of a 94 VD FC wherein the tow guy did not pay attention to the fact that the tiny fiberglass front piece was in the way......so with a screw driver he could have popped the engine cover and looped the strap to only the hoop.....but no, he cracked the fiberglass.......which had been repaired just prior to that weekend. nice
you must be a class act to have been so patient. I would guess the region there has a publication to the members. Have you sent your letter to it?
And the average age gets a year older every year......
I wonder when there will be an organized racing organization for sports racers and open wheel cars. Something like Nasa does for sedans. Sometimes companies and organizations just don't change and improve with the times and they are replaced.
Good idea I may send a copy of my original thread to them, but I'm pretty certain it "would get lost" or never get published. Most of these guys take care of there own. It would be nice if they would recognize that they need to at least train one tow operator.
There seems to be common issue with lack of training or lack of expertise in tow drivers. I was flat towed at Lime Rock a couple months ago - and had expected the usual strap at the top of the rollhoop. Nope! Apparently, the driver had been doing that and flipped two cars sideways. Lack of attentiveness in my opinion. But they made a new rule there that no more tow straps on the rollhoop. This guy at least put the strap on the lower A-Arm and pulled real slow.
So where is the training requirement for the WDCR tow driver?
(Of course, the closer one gets to DC, the worse everything gets!)
To the many formula racecar drivers; please, be aware that the FRCCA is THE home for all classes of formula racecar drivers. ALL classes can enjoy their time at the tracks here in the Northeast and the tow truck drivers know what they are doing, even to the point of designing safe ways to move and carry without doing additional damage. Call the President of the FRCCA, John Heckman at 570-669-9589. Put the fun, safety and competition back into your racing.
At many (most?) tracks, arent the tow truck drivers employees of the track and not SCCA workers? So what control does SCCA have over the selection and training of tow truck drivers?
Can SCCA officials give instructions to tow truck drivers about how they are to tow in formula cars? Can SCCA insist that roll hoop tows be given and that a formula car should never be towed by its suspension?
Or do SCCA officials have to defer to the track and its tow truck drivers to handle it however they want?
(Even if SCCA is not responsible for the tow truck drivers, none of that excuses what happened to Dave back in the paddock, because that really is inexcusable. I am just wondering how much of a role SCCA officials can play with regard to the actions of the tow truck operators out on the track).
Now I know Dave Gomberg. He has always seemed a straight up guy. Apparrently, this was out of HIS hands....too bad.
Again, this just highlights the inequity of treatment within SCCA. There is a culture of "us versu them" within some regions and some tracks. My last experience at the Glen was that way. The abuse that some people got was totally inexcusable.
SCCA has made it plain that they (orgainzationally) do NOT want to hear of any problems. Further to that, they always seem to side with the official, no matter what happened. The result is these small-minded bullies become emboldened and slowly a culture of abuse grows.
Unfortunately it appears the only way to vote is with your heels. You need to send your thread to SCCA and advise them they have lost your business; that is about the only way I can think of to get their attention. With so many venues vying for our money at alternate events, SCCA had better be careful or they truly WILL lose enough members that they will fail.
Personally, I found the abuse at the Glen, by just two knobs who run tech, to be inexcusable!
On the same weekend, I had met (and enjoyed my encounters) with the pit lane marshals, and the chief scrutineer (who managed pit lane). All OUTSTANDING, courteous and pleasant individuals. Too bad a few of the old guard bad apples spoil the whole thing.
FWIW, Tom
__________________
Tom Owen
Owner - Browns Lane and Racelaminates.com
Crap like this is exactly why people are leaving SCCA.
Periodically I have to put up with similar situations, know it all tow drivers without a clue, and officials who are overloaded on their own self importance.
These people need to remember who the customer and who spends the BIG bucks to do this and that we all need each other.
The region / track had no business putting a tow driver on track who was not properly trained. And the driver is a bad guy for not allowing the guy to destroy his car.
How does that make sense.
I can go on forever.
But the only reason I continue to put up with things like stewards changing schedules after registration has opened (not allowed for other than reasons of safety. undersubscribed groups do not in my mind constitute a reason of safety) and not even make an attempt to notify the affected group that moved from ssecond out to first out, is simply beyond my comprehension. This happened 2 weeks ago. And the chief steward who requested it was the same guy who had told me a couple of years ago , after a phone call with him a couple of weeks earlier where he toled me to make sure to get with himn friday at the track and he would make it happoen. It was to give the EWC guys theior own run group. Well Friday nite his words werre "can't do that. Registration has laready opened and we would be moving a group up in the order. And the group moving up ij the order wouyld have been the EWC guys who were all for it.
Basically we are a club in which the stakeholders are powerless against anyone who says they want to be an official and ompletes a minimal amount of training.
1) Not questioning the validity, but as always we are hearing about this story from one side only. Sometimes you have to cause trouble to protect your car/investment. If the officials do not see it your way after the fact, accept that your punishment and move on.
2) Our events are a team effort. No one party is more important than another. Without the tow crew, we do not race.
3) It is not easy to get volunteers. You can not depend on volunteers being properly trained, plan accordingly.
Since flat tows using the roll hoop can be risky, how about some kind of tow eye or hook at the front? Yes, it is not easy or cheap to accomplish, but it could be the cheapest alternative in the long run.
This is amateur racing, you ARE going to get amateur service sometimes.
Tow crews should be trained in how to correctly tow every car on the track
I was on track at Lime Rock when the tow guys flipped a formula vee. The driver had just received the car back with a fresh rebuild and FRESH body work. During the first few laps of the qualifier, he spun in the esses into an area that was flooded with about a foot of water. The truck hooked him up by the roll bar and jerked him out of the water onto the middle of the track upside down on his roll bar. The only lucky part of the story is that they jerked him so hard, he cleared the water which was about a 30’ wide circle. Of course the driver was still strapped in, what would have happened if they flipped him upside down in the water??? Thankfully that didn’t happen, the driver with some help from the other great Vee guys cleaned up the car… and made the race
Any organization can continue to tune you out as long as they keep cashing your checks!!! Money is a powerful messenger. Value is in the eye of the beholder. These two concepts should go together but we keep hearing more stories where value is not being perceived because of (take your pick) rules, track time, officials conduct, etc.
And while WDCR may say "good riddance" to open wheel, someone else will see opportunity - maybe another region or dare I say another....organization. I'm no longer an SCCA member but even when I was I often wondered if club racing should be split into open & closed wheel divisions/groups/whateveryouwanttocallit and run separate race events.
Anyway....for many of us there are alternatives available. It's just a matter of dipping your toe (OK, checkbook) into the water and giving it a try.
"Is it too much to expect a professional attitude from the stewards?"
Some drivers have attitudes, why can't the stewards? The same type of people that populate the driver pool also populate the stewards pool. There is the same politics that you see in the rest of your life. Again, we have only heard from on side of this incident.
You are simply not going to always come out the winner in every SCCA political fight. Take some Prozac if needed and move on.
What is immature about having an attitude? Does it make for bad judgments in all cases?
Should volunteers be screened for attitude? Who and how would that be done?
Brian
Brian, you clearly are missing the whole point. If the officials damage your car, they are immune if they mess up your race through their mistake, they are immune. If they unfairly treat you, they are immune. If I pay over a thousand $ to race, I expect no more fair treatment than if I were paying for a meal at a restaurant. A little politeness, and what I paid for....that is all.
I used to be the president of a national drivers association. Part of my responsibility was to represent our association to race track owners, and we also organiozed both regional and national (pro) events, including involvement in the F-1 race each year.
If I EVER was aware of some of the abusive treatment that I have recently heard of, or have experienced myself, I would have ensured that specific individual would be a probational volunteer. And if they continued, they would be politely NOT invited to subsequent events. Been there, done that.
I just do not get how you do not see what this discussion is about; it is called "merchantability"...look it up if you need to. Basically it could be called "getting what you paid for".
Personally, I cannot justify taking a couple of days off work, spending hours on the highway and hundreds of dollars just to get somewhere, not to mention the untold hours working on the car and spending money to prepare it, just to be abused for the effort. Worse, costly damage is caused to the car.
Brian, are you an SCCA official?
Respectfully, Tom Owen
__________________
Tom Owen
Owner - Browns Lane and Racelaminates.com
At a minimum every competitor should be treated with dignity and basic human respect.
A professionally run racing organization (professional or amateur) should establish this as a basic operational requirement, accordingly give out positions of authority and accept nothing less in every single interface with its customers.
It is unlikely that competitors are going to be happy with decisions made that affect them negatively. This is an expected outcome. It is the nature of the beast.
Hostile and disrespectful attitude from officials is not; it is a clear and unequivocal symptom of mismanagement.
Our officials hold licenses for their positions. That is by definition a screening process. If I can't cut it as a driver either through demonstration of skill, or demonstration of attitude (read the GCR, its required via sportsmanlike conduct) I can be sanctioned up to and including termination of my license. I think the discussion here is that we apply that process liberally to licensed drivers and minimally to anyone else holding a license at an event.
We are mostly amatures here but our club (both regionally and nationally) are businesses. Other clubs are starting to eat our lunch and they will move on to our dinner and desert if allowed. This thread clearly demonstrates how that can happen. It actually is happening in this area of the country as formula car teams are abused until they move on to FRCCA, EMRA or other viable alternatives. The SCCA has to step up its game.
Telling us that our expectations are too high just makes the other clubs smile. SCCA's loss will be their gain.
Everyone in the club should be treated with respect.
This is a club with the drivers paying and everyone else volunteering. Just because the drivers put out the money does not make them anymore important. This is a team that requires drivers and volunteers to make it work. The drivers are not customers and the workers are not paid employees.
Again this is a story being told from only one view. Frankly, it is the typical story that everyone finds so easy to get behind. How often do you really have a bad experience with SCCA? I know I have never been treated unfairly in the 25 years I have been with SCCA.
I did a Nationa levent last month at Blackhawk, it was the qual session.The whole field is on the grid ready to go and then SCCA anounces that there will be a 20 min delay. Almost all of the drivers get out of their cars due to delay.I walk over to the worker doing the false grid and ask if the reason for delay is due to accident with the pior gruop or if there is oil on track.. I'm told in a strong voice NO we are giving the corner workers a ice cream break. It was a hot day and a break was well deserved, but is it below me to ask why we had the delay, and why the heck didn't they just announce over the speaker that our group would start later.
Everyone in the club should be treated with respect.
Which, obviously includes workers and customers.
It has been my experience that some drivers feel some sort of entitlement because they are the "paying customer" and some volunteers expect a sub-par performance to be acceptable because they are "volunteers" Thankfully, they both seem to be the minority and eventually other sports beckon.
When you left, all you had to do is tie a chain from your tow vehicle to the front step of the building (about the same size as a wing) and off you go. Lesson learned by all.
This is a club with the drivers paying and everyone else volunteering. Just because the drivers put out the money does not make them anymore important. This is a team that requires drivers and volunteers to make it work. The drivers are not customers and the workers are not paid employees.
Many of the groups that are eating the SCCA's proverbial lunch operate with a completely different business model than the SCCA. The volunteer work force is a great asset to the club, but in some ways it is also a liability, not only because of situations like this one, but also in its long-term sustainability. There are plenty of viable racing organizations with paid officials and corner workers. Show me a viable racing organization without racers...just because this is the way the SCCA has always done it does not make it the only--or even the best--way to do it.
__________________
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
I understand that there are rules to be followed but at what point does the SCCA and some of their power thirsty volunteers understand that we are the customers.
What? I don't get it......
Sounds like a pretty ridiculous situation to me. The SCCA, along with the WRDC, their workers, and their officials should be highly embarrassed by this situation.
I had a funny thing happen to me at Barber the other day
Funy as in NOT Ha Ha, but not a huge drama ike the OP told us about, either...
I'm coming down hot pit lane and up ahead I see an official making a sweeping motion with his hands/arms, as in "get over to your left", which would take me off the asphalt strip, and onto the concrete pit area.
I figure this must be a Barber thing; they have a few "things" there, so no big whoop, I continue on, on the concrete.
As I approach the offical, I don't see anything out of the ordinary, but as I go past him, I hear a yell, kinda like "HEY!"
I immediately stop and he walks the 30 or so feet up pit road and I shut off the car.
This is where it gets a little disfunctional...
The guy puts his head right on in the cockpit, pretty close to my mug and says in an overly loud, slow deliberate cadence "WHEN YOU ARE TOLD TO STOP, YOU NEED TO STOP. DO YOU UNDERSTAND ME?"
I reply yes.
He then goes on to tell me that Timing n' Scoring has requested I put my front number further down the nose - I had it up on the horizontal section, and at Barber the front straight is up hill out of the last turn and it's difficult to see the number where I had it.
Reasonable enough, no sweat I'll have it changed as per instructed for the race later in the day.
The problem I was having, as the paying customer (Straight out of every story in Sportscar the last few months from folks like the Prez and the BOD Chairman by the way) was being spoken to like I was 4 yrs old and had just taken a crayon to the kitchen wall.
I very politely told the official that I had no idea he wanted me to stop, only to move over.
He asked if I saw other drivers move over, and I told him I had no idea what other drivers were doing, the session was over and we were at jogging speed down hot pit lane, plus there were not that many cars in front of me when I came in.
We were done and I left. I got back to my paddock spot and told Ana that I was gonna go have a talk with the guy. Now years ago it woulda never got that far as Id'a told him right then and there that I was actually not 4 yrs old and he didn't need to speak to me as though I was.
It seems the years have mellowed the Coopster just enough, hell maybe I'm a little smarter now, who knows.
I rode on down to hot pit and we were between sessions. I walked over and I introduced myself. The first thing I mentioned was that I was not trying to bust his chops, rather I had no idea/no indication I was supposed to stop.
I mentioned that perhaps any further signaling could include something more informative, perhaps the internationally accepted hand held straight up, palm forward, with other hand, finger extended could indicate where.
We spoke a little bit, shook hands, and perhaps we both went away a little wiser.
Now, having said that I'da done the same thing at Summitt if the tow truck driver tried to lasso my front wing. Guy's a lost cause for sure.
We must have the best guys in the world at Rd Atl, very professional, never saw or heard of a problem.
I do know however that down here the tow straps are passed through the hoop and then wound around the strap with the driver holding the thing from coming undone wit hhis left hand and steering with the right.
If there's any trouble, all the driver has to do is let go and the thing unwinds and comes undone.
I never heard of actually tieing onto a formula car.
I allways treat any of the officials with respect, but ya wanna get my feathers all ruffled, just start treating me like I'm a dumb ass who has no idea of procedures, etc...
Then the respect goes right out the window.
How often do you really have a bad experience with SCCA?
Some drivers have attitudes, why can't the stewards?
Brian
This can't be a serious question. I don't know if Apexspeed has enough server space to host that thread.
So, I should just treat people with a crappy attitude just in case they were going to do it to me first? I see.
I'm confident that most of us can say we have made good friends with and respect most of the SCCA officials we have met and raced with over the years. But the "bad apple" ratio is extremely high.
This can't be a serious question. I don't know if Apexspeed has enough server space to host that thread.
So, I should just treat people with a crappy attitude just in case they were going to do it to me first? I see.
I'm confident that most of us can say we have made good friends with and respect most of the SCCA officials we have met and raced with over the years. But the "bad apple" ratio is extremely high.
General Formula Car Discussion
Major problem with WDCR SCCA!!!
There have been a few threads of late that might have used it......
