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Joel Lipperini - Suspended from SCCA Racing (SOMs pull license)
All I can say after reading this is "wow"......Very low point for the SCCA...
Joel Lipperini - Suspended from SCCA Racing (SOMs pull license)
Found while browsing SCCAForums:
Joel Lipperini - Suspended from SCCA Racing (SOMs pull license)
All I can say after reading this is "wow"...
Chris Pruett
Swift DB1
"Wow", is right. Here I am trying to move to Indy and decide where I should race next year. Me thinks I'll stay with my "little club" and be very thankful for it's existance.
Thank you John & Sue. Hope to see more of you next season.
-John Bachmann
It seems like most race tracks' policies regarding walking the track are pretty obvious. If it's easy to walk out onto the track, it's OK. If it's padlocked, and you have to jump a fence, you can't. Also, tracks that don't want you on the racing surface are pretty good about letting everyone know that policy.
What is Rd America's policy regarding walking the track. Anyone know?
A word of caution - Before getting out torches and pitchforks remember all the things you've read and gotten excited about only to hear later another side of the story. I'm not saying Joel wasn't punished unfairly, just that there is more to the story than we know.
Very interesting indeed. I'm still surprised that there are tracks out there that will not let you walk the track once it goes cold (Road America being one of them). I can understand not wanting late night golf cart racing on the track or whatever, but walking the track? Come on.... I've never known anyone able to walk the track at Road America though. I don't know why.
2003 VanDiemen FSCCA #29
Follow me on Twitter @KeithCarter74
Walking the tight rope
At the Glen two weeks ago (double national) a friend borrowed my bike to go out to circuit the track...as he lost his dry sump tank lid...he knew basically where it was.....lo and behold he was chased off the track by security. No problem, he was advised of the rules, helped to exit the track, and no damage done!
Ok, lesson learned. But to punish a known and experienced driver (such as Lipperini) in such a way for what appears to be a similar offense seems draconian by my standards. Given my experience at the Glen recently with two absolute jerks in tech, who proceeded to absolute lambaste me about parking my motorhome in the approved parking area, where I PAID Glen admin for a reserved spot reeks of abuse of power. One of the two was the cheif scrutineer. I (mistakenly) asked him how I could reach security to unlock my power box. They did everything but punch me in the eye. THEY were swearing, ordering me around, etc....they are reflective of a culture of "Us versus Them" that seems to pervade much of SCCA.
Now, remember this is the weekend when everyone was parked helter-skelter all over the paddock, some rigs parked sideways in spots, literally taking up two and three spots. I felt like asking that if they were the parking police where the heck have they been when nobody has cleaned up the paddock!
Bottom line is there needs to be a balance and fairness to the process. These "officials" need to realize that THEY have this power and responsibility because of US, THE COMPETITOR, not vice versa.
I have been involved in motor racing both as a competitor and as an organizer. This is not an easy job; lots of adreneline floating around, big time constraints, and certain competitors DO abuse the rules. That's why there are rules. OK, if this gentleman was flagrantly risking somebodies life, was abusive, refused to comply, then that is one thing....but it appears that this may not be the case.
What I am seeing is that the officials exist in their own little "club" where they will take great pains to protect themselves. The competitor is often the loser.
This is the antithesis of my experience with HSR. THEY view themselves as offering a service to the competitor, and providing entertainment to the spectator. The result is a culture of polite, helpfulness and respect; both given and expected in return. A much more pleasant experience.
SCCA had better wake up! there are so many OTHER SANCTIONING BODIES out there that we can go "play" in. Make it difficult or unpleasant for me to play in your sand lot, and I will just go away and play somewhere else.
Now, Let me also state I also met more than a few really PLEASANT officials. an example was the chief crutineer at the Glen; an outstanding, respectful and caring guy. It must confound these great people (the majority) when they see others being such fools!
FWIW, just my opinion.
Tom
racing since 1976 and Past President CRDA
Given the limited interaction I've had with RA track security and management, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if this was driven by RA, with SCCA just doing as they were told.
RA is a beautiful piece of asphalt in a great location. It's a darn shame that they've forgotten who the customers are.
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
Good luck finding it. When this situation came up before I looked up the Rules of Road America and Supps from the June Sprints and nowhere does it state anything about track walking after hours being prohibited (or allowed for that matter). I would hope it at least gets added in the future, but that doesn't help Joel much.Originally Posted by RussMcB
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Lipperini suspended
I heard he walked the track after being told by security it was not allowed..He was given a warning the first time.The second time he was told by the CS not to and he did anyway then the SOM decided to suspend him.
I think most of the tracks and even some officials have forgotten who the customers are.
FWIW When I lived in WI I was always under the impression that walking the track after hours at Road America was not allowed by the track. However it's not even remotely a secure track to keep people off of it. No locks on gates, no gates closing the hot pits, etc.
Considering it's an off track incident I can't see how the punishment in any way remotely reflects the crime.
PA announcement
Not sure which day it was during the sprints but there was an announcement over the PA that there was no access to the track after the last car rolled off the track. No walking, bikes, pit carts etc. Not sure if it was in reaction to this incident or not but there was an announcement as I remember being pretty bummed that I couldn't get good 4 mile run in after the races were over.
Does seem harsh but certainly in line with what I saw during the whole weekend. One RA "official" physically grabbed my brothers NY registered moped and screamed in his face about not having a paddock pass. I believe my brother said something along the lines of "the psycho was so worked up he was stuttering and spitting in my face! Calm down Ike Turner"
-Bill Valet
NeDiv Swift DB-6 #83
It isn't neccesarily about tracks just being an ass....it's about tracks having after-hours incidents and our litigious society. If we only took responsibility for our own actions....
Most of us who've been around a bit have heard tale of some jack-ass driving the track at night after a few brews around the campfire. Been to the track when someone gets airlifted because they were screwing around on a pit scooter on the track in the evenning without a helmet? How about another drunk crew member T-boning a k-rail in the paddock with a track rented/supplied golf cart?
Our "peers" have ruined it for the rest of us.
Knuckleheads
Bill, again these knuckleheads better realize that we will go somewhere else! Regardless of RA's policies, the guys I "met" at the Glen were some of the worst and abusive officials I have seen in a while....and ya better shut up or they will find "something wrong" with your car!! They know it and you know it.
The problem with "volunteer -driven" organizations is that you are held ransom by those individuals....what has to happen is fire a few of them and replace them with a more junior but reasonable person.
And with Lipperini, even when he had recorded the "confrontation" it was ignored...? If true, then there was no attempt to interperate "fair".
"Give a guy a whistle, and he thinks he's a cop" is an old expression I have heard used.
Regards, Tom
And to think the racers make significant financial and time expenses for the priviledge of this abuse. And they wonder why the average age of the club member is getting a year older every year. Hmmmmm...
Ken
Well
I left scca after 20 plus years of BS. RA has rules, scca should be benable.
Areobach, is correct.
F.W. Schroeder, 6th
When you get kicked off the track two nights in a row, you don't ask for the security manager unless you are picking for a fight.
You are always on thin ice when you go in front of the stewards. The personalities involved become a big part of the equation. The system requires you to form the correct opinion of the situation and adjust your tactics accordingly. There is more to this than just being in the right. If your skill set is not up to the game, stay out of the steward's room.
Brian
Only if the stewards have forgotten that this is a club, and that their job is to determine what was right and wrong, per the letter of the rules - and personalities aren't part of the rulebook.
If it ain't printed in the GCR or the supps, it's not part of the rules.
I would remind everyone of the "beat the boss" track run at RA last year.
Which of these have ANYTHING to do with a walk around the track after hours?
Sorry, but I think you're giving the track security people FAR too much credit. They are jerks. I can't say whether this is their individual personality or it is based on management direction, but it IS the case at RA.
When was the last time anyone was treated poorly by a track employee at:
Blackhawk Farms
Roebling Road
Nelson Ledges
Beaver Run
Gateway
Hallett
CMP (Kershaw)
???
The simple fact is that the "larger" tracks (read: those that have NASCAR or IRL dates) treat us the same way as they treat spectators at their marquis events. Once they have your money, they don't give a rip about you. I have a bit of a problem with this, given the amount of investment it takes for us to be there as participants.
I love driving RA and the Glen, but it wouldn't bother me one bit to see us transition away from those guys long enough to get their attention and remind them that WE are paying the bills.
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
All of them....they are the reason we have the stupid policy about not allowing track walk-arounds in the first place.
Agree
Marshall, I still lay the blame on the race organizer. Abuse that I witnessed this last race at the Glen would not have happened if that had been an HSR event! Been there (Glen) with the vintage guys and nothing like the stuff I saw at SCCA would have been tolerated.
Somebody told me that some of these officials have dry, boring lives that degrades them, or they have no voice; then they get a nice shirt and an ID badge and they (finally!?) get their voice....and we are forced to deal with them. As a past president of a race organizer/sanctioning group, I would fired their a$$ or at least re-directed their energies. The problem as I see it, is that SCCA is not accountable in any way to the entrant.
This "challenge" will resolve itself; I suggest in ten years (when an awful lot of us) will be too old, feeble or poor to race any more. I am 55. I figure I will be incredibly lucky if I have ten years left. The guys across from us in the garages were celebrating a fellow's 69th birthday. Demographics will force SCCA to become more "market oriented"....unfortunately, there won't be enough racers left to support all the sanctioning bodies. I expect SCCA will die.
That is sad.
Tom
Buttonwillow, a SCCA OWNED track, doesn't allow track walks. Warren has let me and three friends walk around to look for a camera that came off my car, but it's pretty much restricted to stuff like that. They do street car laps before the first session of a practice day, but I've never seen someone walk it for teaching purposes.
The incident Daryl was referring to was two youngsters, one of which I believe had just obtained his competition license, went out on Buttonwillow after dark on a scooter. The passenger on the back spilled off and cracked his skull on the pavement. I was paddocked about 100 yds from where the helo set down.
The next day, while we were in a lunchtime drivers meeting to get a bit of an ass-chew'in by the chief steward to remind us not to do such knucklehead things, two old guys in a big Healy convertible, 14 year restoration, no roll bar, went off the top of magic mountain and flipped, killing both of them.
Needless to say, drive arounds are a LOT more controlled now.
My favorite is the kid who hurt himself skateboarding the Cork Screw at Laguna Seca. Now they will not even let you carry your bike across the track for the evening social.
Brian
Crikey!
Was that Corkscrew stunt filmed for the upcoming cinematic extravaganza that will be Jackass III?
IF you remember anything about being young, you know it had to be tried. You would also remember that you had absolutely no concern (or knowledge) about how it would effect the rest of us.
Brian
I refer you to the Milgram study on obedience to authority figures.
Lest we forget, this is our club, and WE pay their salaries.
Ya need to hit them where it hurts...cash.
Tell the track you are going to miss one test day before the Runoffs because you want to walk the track and they won't let you. 100 people with an average of $500 test day will get some attention. Just tell them you are giving up one test day in protest of their policy. $50 K will get some attention.
We also need to press our Board of Directors to force tracks to let us walk the track after Saturday racing is over. Make it part of the rental agreement.
We have all signed the release to get on the property, paid a hefty rental fee to use the place and part of using the place is to be able to walk the track.
If the concern is liability, it shouldn't be too hard to put a set of rules in place to avoid problems. A track walk means just that - walking! No golf carts, bikes, scooters, pitbikes, skateboards, etc. I find it hard to believe there is more potential liability for walking on the track than racing on it. Post the hours the track will be open for walking and left the drivers walk the track.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Add Gingerman to the list of tracks that Marshall named.
first time there, I asked the track manager and he let us ride our scooters around on a Friday nite after the evening practice session.
Drivers are expected to and should use common sense.
We kept it under 15 mph.
The folks at Gingerman and Nelson Ledges (have not had personal experience at the others in 20+ years) actually act as if they are happy to have you there.
They both understand the concept that pleasant experiences will bring customers back and that unpleasant ones will cause customers to take their money elsewhere.
In this case, as in the charging of Jim G. for oiling the track, you are dealing with George B. We all have stories of abusive treatment, exhorbitant fees, or dangerous track operations from RA. Someone made the suggestion to contact the owners of RA. Other legal actions have been contemplated for overtly dangerous actions taken while cars were on track.
Bottom line . . . . . it's his sandbox and he requires all sanctioning bodies to accede to his wishes or they can play elsewhere.
More's the pity.
Charlie Warner
fatto gatto racing
'Cause there's bugger-all down here on earth!
The Point
I agree with you Charles, but I thought the thread was less about abusive track owners and more about the few abusive and self-serving SCCA admin....THEY were the ones who acted without due regard for all the information and (in my experience) are abusing their privileges by treating entrants so poorly.
Best, Tom
It does seem that there is a group that is allowed to walk the track.
http://community.acsevents.org/site/...28220&pg=entry
Seems more reason why I am starting to strongly dislike RA, and it's my "home" track.
This lame suspension, mainly for not being able to walk the track which is absurd in the first place. Then the whole Runoffs parking BS. And I just read a post that a guy was charged $600 for oil dry when he oiled the track at the KIC.
I won't even rehash my whole June Sprints financial-shake down we got from the RA Gestapo.
LAME!!!!
One of the larger shareholders in RA is the Chicago Region SCCA. Ironic, ain't it...
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
[quote=Marshall Mauney;262780]
If it ain't printed in the GCR or the supps, it's not part of the rules.
There is one thing you've forgotten here: the law.
The track doesn't belong to the drivers.
Trespass, as well as criminal damaging. theft and assault, are probably prohibited by the Wisconsin Code.
Yes, exactly. This should have been addressed by the criminal code not through SCCA. The entrant paid a fee and was allowed on the track at cetain times of the day. If the track was going to enforce the trespassing issue they it needed to give entrants clear notice as to when access was not allowed. The driver in question was wrong in his actions - regardless of his helpful intentions - but since this was not during the time a track was in operation and if track walks were not explicitly prohibited in the Sup's then SCCA should have stayed out of it. However the driver made an error in talking to SCCA officials about the situation - they could not authorized his access to the track during times it was not under their control. By speaking to them about an issue over which they had no control he precipitated their involvement. Like most of these incidents it appears that all parties could have addressed this situation in a more positive manner.
From a PR standpoint, however, this whole situation just stinks. It is reasonable to think that some entrants may need to visually inspect certain sections of the track after race time. If the track is to prohibit informal access then it is probably in their best interest to have a monitored and supervised track walk option. There is no reason that Road America could not have organized this for after hours for a nominal fee which would cover any incremental security required.
Mark Silverberg - SE Michigan
Lynx B FV & Royale RP3 FF
240Z Vintage Production Car
PCR, Kosmic CRG & Birel karts
I heard announcements at both the cat and the sprints that walking the track was not allowed. But, I was listening for them as it was something we wanted to do.
That said, I'm tired of these workers who seem to get crapped on by their wife and their boss all week and get a tiny bit of power on the weekends and go nuts.
I disagree, Mark.
Walking the track, although race-related, is no more reasonable than spray-painting your car or welding in close proximity to others, or drilling holes in the paddock tarmac for your tent.
I know that it's important to be familiar with the track, for yourself as well as other competitors. But to some reasonable extent, you just gotta' bring this stuff with you.
Are you actually drawing a parallel between those things? Drilling holes in the tarmac DAMAGES the surface. Explain to us how WALKING on the track damages anything? Yes, it is REASONABLE to at least request to walk on the track, since it is a commonly allowed practice at many tracks.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Is it trespassing if a member of the leasing body (SCCA) is on property that has effectively been leased for the duration of the event? What is the nature of the contract?There is one thing you've forgotten here: the law.
The track doesn't belong to the drivers.
Trespass, as well as criminal damaging. theft and assault, are probably prohibited by the Wisconsin Code.
My impression (perhaps incorrect, but this is the way it was explained to me many years ago) has always been that from an insurance (and legal?) perspective, the sanctioning body has full responsibility for the site during the event - similarly to a lease agreement. Thus, if there are access restrictions, the sanctioning body has the responsibility for communicating this to the membership. Therefore, my expectation (and I'd bet that it is what the vast majority of our participants expect) is that if it ain't in the supps or track rules as given to the membership at registration, it's not something the participants can be expected to adhere to. A statement at a mandatory driver's meeting would be a reasonable substitue as well, but to announce it over the PA is pretty much worthless - I know that at most tracks the majority of paddock spaces have no chance of being able to hear the announcers.
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
It is my understanding that the contract is typically written stating what hours the sanctioning body has access to the track. Control of the track surface would revert to the track owners outside of those times. For instance if the contract states racing will be done by 6pm then the sanctioning body may not have control or access to the track after that time.
Mark Silverberg - SE Michigan
Lynx B FV & Royale RP3 FF
240Z Vintage Production Car
PCR, Kosmic CRG & Birel karts
OK, that makes sense.
Given that this can and will be different at different venues, how are individual competitors/participants supposed to abide by this sort of contractual obligation if it isn't communicated in the supps, driver's packet, or in the drivers' meetings?
I'm not trying to be flippant, nor am I trying to adjudicate events after-the-fact without knoweldge of the details. I am, however, trying to understand how any one of us is supposed to avoid running afoul of unknown regulations and restrictions. For example, my wife went for an evening run on the track at Blackhawk Farms earlier this year - nobody ever thought or said anything about it, and it had never occurred to me that there might be an unwritten prohibition against it (having done the same thing many times before at BHF, Nelson, Summit Point, Roebling, etc.). From what I see with Lipperini's case, it appears that she was unknowingly placing me in jeopardy of being suspended for 6 months (GCR says the driver/entrant has responsibility for the actions of their crew).
Are we all to assume that we are on "double secret probation" every time we are at the track?
Marshall Mauney
Milwaukee Region
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