Honda. What if ?

[stonebridge20]

Just a couple of "what if's" on the Honda proposal.

What if,..... The Honda is approved and over time is moved up in performance ( through successfull lobbying) to the point that the Kent is no longer a competitive engine? Will you be "forced" to do the conversion to stay competitive? Will your old Kent engine be worth anything?

What if,..... The Honda becomes the dominant engine in the class. Do you now have to spend money like the Spec Miata guys and order up a dozen cylinder heads,short blocks and intakes to send to your engine builder and have them spend multiple hours on the dyno coming up with the best combination of "spec" parts to gain 2Hp.

What if,..... SCCA approves the Honda and now another manufacturer or individual want's their engine approved also. Will SCCA have to let that engine in or be subject to suit under restriction of trade law? Which they have been before and lost!

What if,.... FF became a multi engine (See above what if) class. Would there be any parity among multiple engines? How would that parity be achieved? Who would test and adjust these engines to achieve the so called parity within the class?

What if,... Formula Ford was left as a single engine class. A class that is consistently at the top of the participation numbers. A class that due to rules allowing alternate crank, rods,cyl head, pistons, ect, ect,.. do not seem to make parts supply a problem anymore. A class that with the "new" parts in an engine has been reported by top engine builders to go 50 hours between bottom end rebuilds. A class that has seen a resurgence in participation in the past year. A class that has successfully survived in SCCA for 40 years with no major changes to the rules set. A class that can get 200+ cars together at a single race if you call it an anniversary. A class that is not broken!

Just a few what if's to think about prior to sending your "vote" to the CRB or maybe sending another!

[robin]

Just a couple of "what if's" on the Honda proposal.

What if,..... The Honda is approved and over time is moved up in performance ( through successfull lobbying) to the point that the Kent is no longer a competitive engine? Will you be "forced" to do the conversion to stay competitive? Will your old Kent engine be worth anything?

It would be hard to stop people from lobbing to have their choice of engine improved. Since that is a problem, why is not a problem when some converts a DB-6 from FC to FF? Or change a chassis from a Hewland MK8 to a Staffs or to an LD200 gearbox? How about the increase complexity of the shock dampers being used in the class?

What if,..... The Honda becomes the dominant engine in the class. Do you now have to spend money like the Spec Miata guys and order up a dozen cylinder heads,short blocks and intakes to send to your engine builder and have them spend multiple hours on the dyno coming up with the best combination of "spec" parts to gain 2Hp.

Isn't this what has been happening in the class for years in a slightly different way? Maybe someone may consider this a good way to up their performance, I find that being a better driver and chassis engineer a better route. Waste your money in the methods that works best for you.

What if,..... SCCA approves the Honda and now another manufacturer or individual want's their engine approved also. Will SCCA have to let that engine in or be subject to suit under restriction of trade law? Which they have been before and lost!

I believe that the club has left that as a possibilty. If some individual can produce an engine that meets the need of hundreds of racers at a reasonable price and provide the support for a couple of decades, then why not. Any other manufacturer who wants to do the same as Honda should try, but it would be meaningless if they don't prove that it is a workable solution.

What if,.... FF became a multi engine (See above what if) class. Would there be any parity among multiple engines? How would that parity be achieved? Who would test and adjust these engines to achieve the so called parity within the class?

What if,... Formula Ford was left as a single engine class. A class that is consistently at the top of the participation numbers. A class that due to rules allowing alternate crank, rods,cyl head, pistons, ect, ect,.. do not seem to make parts supply a problem anymore. A class that with the "new" parts in an engine has been reported by top engine builders to go 50 hours between bottom end rebuilds. A class that has seen a resurgence in participation in the past year. A class that has successfully survived in SCCA for 40 years with no major changes to the rules set. A class that can get 200+ cars together at a single race if you call it an anniversary. A class that is not broken!

Sorry, but I feel that the class is broken. The engine is out of production for so long that a group of specialists have to make a few parts to replace the old stuff. In a short time the lack of engine blocks will start to get worst. Hell, someone asked me if I had one to sell. Not good! There are only so many band-aids that can be used, before you have no one able to race the cars as they were meant to be. Somehow, 200+ cars at a special event is not a truly good sign that the class is health. This past weekend, there were only 4 cars (one was at that race). The FV's had 15 cars. SM had 70+, guess who is the 800lb gorilla in the room. If this engine leads to 10+ fields in FF on a regular basis, then I say it is a good thing (tm).


robin

[Darren Brown]

Just a couple of "what if's" on the Honda proposal.

What if,..... The Honda is approved and over time is moved up in performance ( through successfull lobbying) to the point that the Kent is no longer a competitive engine? Will you be "forced" to do the conversion to stay competitive? Will your old Kent engine be worth anything?

What if,..... The Honda becomes the dominant engine in the class. Do you now have to spend money like the Spec Miata guys and order up a dozen cylinder heads,short blocks and intakes to send to your engine builder and have them spend multiple hours on the dyno coming up with the best combination of "spec" parts to gain 2Hp.

What if,..... SCCA approves the Honda and now another manufacturer or individual want's their engine approved also. Will SCCA have to let that engine in or be subject to suit under restriction of trade law? Which they have been before and lost!

What if,.... FF became a multi engine (See above what if) class. Would there be any parity among multiple engines? How would that parity be achieved? Who would test and adjust these engines to achieve the so called parity within the class?

What if,... Formula Ford was left as a single engine class. A class that is consistently at the top of the participation numbers. A class that due to rules allowing alternate crank, rods,cyl head, pistons, ect, ect,.. do not seem to make parts supply a problem anymore. A class that with the "new" parts in an engine has been reported by top engine builders to go 50 hours between bottom end rebuilds. A class that has seen a resurgence in participation in the past year. A class that has successfully survived in SCCA for 40 years with no major changes to the rules set. A class that can get 200+ cars together at a single race if you call it an anniversary. A class that is not broken!

Just a few what if's to think about prior to sending your "vote" to the CRB or maybe sending another!

Exactly, I agree to everything you have there. I said most of that in the other thread and my letter to the comp board.

One other thing some do not consider. What happens when we race in cold raining weather (like at the run-off's in 2000 at mid ohio cold and snowing). Now my kent is getting carb and intake ice and stumbling off the corner, while the Honda's ECU and fuel injection just purrs along like my wife's cat.

Darren

[T644HU05]

<Snip> One other thing some do not consider. What happens when we race in cold raining weather (like at the run-off's in 2000 at mid ohio cold and snowing). Now my kent is getting carb and intake ice and stumbling off the corner, while the Honda's ECU and fuel injection just purrs along like my wife's cat.

Darren

Maybe not everyone likes carb ice.

But, who knows. Maybe you beat the Fit guy because
his connectors got wet and his car quit. Oh wait, I was suppose to say "what if".

[cliff]

well said Mike...I see no "problem" being fixed with this proposal.
I know how my letters will read.

[mblanc]

What if,..... The Honda is approved and over time is moved up in performance ( through successful lobbying) to the point that the Kent is no longer a competitive engine? Will you be "forced" to do the conversion to stay competitive?

Mike, You make excellent points in your entire post, but I would like to expand on this one Idea,


At this point, I'm extremely skeptical and worried about the performance issues. There has only been ONE comparison, by ONE engine builder, and were 'told' that things are 'about' equal. There is no set data, and 'equal' to what? One great engine? one mediocre one, average is equal, but it has areas of higher torque? Where's the data set? Where is the PROOF OF COMPLIANCE that Honda is actually entering as an underdog engine.---there is no such documentation, nor a written requirement, unlike the zetec knowingly started as an underdog.

THEN
after the engine builders have a year, two or three to tweak some magic, spend untold $$$ (ala SM) finding, blueprinting, improving the Honda, DON'T TELL ME that at that point it won't be BETTER THAN TODAYS PROPOSAL. The best and brightest in their industry can't make any improvements to a package in 3 years? Say that and you're insulting them.

The problem (one of many) is there IS NOT enough (any?) data out in the sunlight. I'm entirely against the proposal, -run the car in FS, and do what they F1000 guys are having to do, BUILD YOUR OWN CLASS, DON'T RAID ANOTHER ONE.

But that aside, since we could end up with this against the will of the silent majority of current FF owners anyway, The major current engine builders should all be involved to put the engine at a performance level that would be starting knowingly WELL BELOW below an AVERAGE KENT, as agreed by several builders, comparing several engines, using a conservative Kent that would be a reliable long term runner, not a tweaked out runoffs only engine(if there is such a thing).

The engine provider, nor the CRB can be trusted to keep a level playing field. That target will move over time, so IF there is any consideration, (the Honda package that will improve over time) it MUST start out with a significant disadvantage, with ALL the major engine guys spending some time documenting that underdog starting point.

Do not construe this as my support at any level. But there is a much better path forward if this class is going to raided, with many sets of eyes setting a lower performance level.


It seems that path could meet the multitude of opinions out there, If the fit is a magic bullet to bring back the heyday of FF, (yeah right) then the supposed ease of operation, and supposed cost savings will magically fix everything, we'll have the best of both, huge fields that just want to compete, and hundreds of kent lovers that can continue doing what they do, as over time the Honda takes a natural course, and improves naturally through time, development, and big$ spent on it.(Do you really think a guy that buys the new Piper/Fit wouldn't also send a couple engines to Mr. Engine builder, along with a big check to 'see what they can find?')

The proposal MUST BE MODIFIED to knowingly put the fit at a permanent significant disadvantage.


I'll save you posting the question:
Why would Honda want to play in FF at a disadvantage?
-THE answer, they don't have to: they can go play in THEIR OWN CLASS, like every other group that wanted to fix what's wrong with (insert class letters here).

[Steve Maxwell]

And more to Mark's point, how long will Honda tolerate finishing second to a Ford? If the detuned fit can't win no one will buy it. Honda will start tweeking some aspect of the engines to make them start winning and it's all down hill from there.

I know of NO ONE who will go FF racing if this engine is approved. I know of SEVERAL who will quit FF if it becomes a multiple engine class.

Look at GTL and some other GT classes; it is complete chaos. I'm in FF for the lack of chaos; off track anyway.


BTW, FF is among the top in national participation numbers so don't event try to feed me that "the class is broken" BS!

Oh! And how is the availability of new cranks, Al.heads and forged pistons a "band aid"? They're functional parts that improve the engine.

Peoples complain that you have to have the whizzy bits (mentioned above) to be competitive. Those parts can be added with rebuilds over time. What happens when the one whizzy bit is a $12,000 buy in and an annual $5,000 rebuild. Most of us have done the buy-in do we really need to do it again?


SEM

[John LaRue]

I really don't believe that you can see the forrest for the trees. There is a problem in FF, but it is not seen from within. If you (as I) have (in my case had) a significant investment in the Kent then there is a definite reason to vote against the proposal. Why change something that is working just fine "for me"? The problem is with those who do not have all of the spares in inventory or those who might want to join the class. Why in the world would I build a new car if I can't get an engine? Granted the low production replacement parts have helped those who are already blessed to have engines, but they are but a temporary bandaid and fail to resolve the major supply problem new engines/blocks. I know, I was there, I hoarded blocks and even went so far as to have cast crankshafts produced when there was a shortage. Blocks are not going to be as simple and the costs are ever escalating. The proposal resolves these problems. If you are happy with the small and shrinking grids then so be it, but I personally think that this proposal will revitalize the class and put it into a growth cycle. Remember that there is no requirement that anyone convert to the Fit.

Oh, but "what if" the Fit proves to be faster? Well this could be a possibility, but I sincerely doubt it. Reasonable parity is possible and if there is a problem it will be quickly identified and can be easily addressed through competition adjustments. These concerns will be further addressed by adopting a sealed engine which helps to further reign in the costs. If however for argument sake it proved to be an insurmountable problem how is this any different than a new car, set of dampers, set of headers, tricked out WRD gearbox or any other tweek which suddenly renders our sacred equipment as mid pack fodder?

Guys, there are a million "what if's" with any change. I think that most of these are red herrings, but if something arises it can easily be fixed. This proposal is a path to renewed interest and new cars/competitors for FF. In an instant this class will become perhaps the most economical formula car class to run in SCCA. I just can't see much of a down side to this one.

John LaRue

[JHaydon]

Show me where I can buy a (good) Kent engine block and I won't support the proposal.

The occasional for sale ad on ApexSpeed doesn't count, nor does the legend of the wrecking yard in Essex that might have one, or the rumor of "someone" who has been working on casting new blocks but hasn't made any progress in ten years. I want to know, if I crack or perforate YET ANOTHER 711 block next weekend, who can I call who will have another in stock that I can put on my Visa card and finish the season.

[Bill Steele]

I really don't believe that you can see the forrest for the trees. There is a problem in FF, but it is not seen from within. If you (as I) have (in my case had) a significant investment in the Kent then there is a definite reason to vote against the proposal. Why change something that is working just fine "for me"? The problem is with those who do not have all of the spares in inventory or those who might want to join the class. Why in the world would I build a new car if I can't get an engine? Granted the low production replacement parts have helped those who are already blessed to have engines, but they are but a temporary bandaid and fail to resolve the major supply problem new engines/blocks. I know, I was there, I hoarded blocks and even went so far as to have cast crankshafts produced when there was a shortage. Blocks are not going to be as simple and the costs are ever escalating. The proposal resolves these problems. If you are happy with the small and shrinking grids then so be it, but I personally think that this proposal will revitalize the class and put it into a growth cycle. Remember that there is no requirement that anyone convert to the Fit.

Oh, but "what if" the Fit proves to be faster? Well this could be a possibility, but I sincerely doubt it. Reasonable parity is possible and if there is a problem it will be quickly identified and can be easily addressed through competition adjustments. These concerns will be further addressed by adopting a sealed engine which helps to further reign in the costs. If however for argument sake it proved to be an insurmountable problem how is this any different than a new car, set of dampers, set of headers, tricked out WRD gearbox or any other tweek which suddenly renders our sacred equipment as mid pack fodder?

Guys, there are a million "what if's" with any change. I think that most of these are red herrings, but if something arises it can easily be fixed. This proposal is a path to renewed interest and new cars/competitors for FF. In an instant this class will become perhaps the most economical formula car class to run in SCCA. I just can't see much of a down side to this one.

John LaRue

Sounds right to me.

[Steve Maxwell]

Like the Zetec "parity"? Yeah I'll get a pinto to run in FC. How quickly will parity be restored in FC? Oh wait the HP #'s are relatively close. Oh wait one is fuel injected! So which motor should i run in FC?! They're all sooo close!

SEM

[Bill Steele]

Show me where I can buy a (good) Kent engine block and I won't support the proposal.

The occasional for sale ad on ApexSpeed doesn't count, nor does the legend of the wrecking yard in Essex that might have one, or the rumor of "someone" who has been working on casting new blocks but hasn't made any progress in ten years. I want to know, if I crack or perforate YET ANOTHER 711 block next weekend, who can I call who will have another in stock that I can put on my Visa card and finish the season.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I went through this exact exercise this last winter rebuild. Arnie found some cracks down in the main bearing saddles and recommended swapping blocks. Obviously I don't know what Arnie has to go through to secure his source of replacement blocks, but my cost for the prepped block was $1369.

I know Arnie isn't gouging me for a part like this, in fact, I am pretty sure he probably isn't making much, if anything on such replacements. The fact that my replacement block costs over 50% of a complete replacement Fit longblock should tell any fence sitters all they need on the subject.

Finally, for guys like Justin, Paul and Richard (all SF Region competitors that have had catastrophic failures in their pro built Kent in the last 18 months, well Richard has had two), their out of pocket expenses for those events would have been 50% or less if they were running a Fit. But then, that really isn't a good example because none of them likely would have had those failures with a Fit.

I guess this post isn't really a "what if", it is a "what is".

[Jim Nash]

Obviously some see a problem and others don’t. I happen to be someone who did and I saw it "from within". I decided to leave FF after almost 20 years of consistent participation when my last rebuild cost me almost $6K. I was thinking about getting an aluminum head that year if my rebuild was reasonable but that would have had the total out lay to be $9K+. Without going into the strengths and weaknesses of the Kent, that was simply too much money for what I was getting in return. And that is from the perspective of a guy who has dumped money into racing for years and continues to do so, not a new guy (from the outside) looking at the financial realities of going racing.

BTW, I was for the aluminum head when it was approved because I agreed with those that saw the problems with the old ones and felt this would help the class as a whole. Given this one example you can not say there have been no significant rules changes to the Kent over the years.

I can’t say whether or not I will return to the class if the Fit is approved but I can say with certainty I will not as long as the Kent remains the only option. You can imagine how my letter to the CRB read.

What if I still had a FF? I would convert as soon as I could swing it. And for all those other "What ifs"? I'd take my chances.

Jim Nash

[Phil Wellner]

The proposal MUST BE MODIFIED to knowingly put the fit at a permanent significant disadvantage.

Why would anyone support a proposal that puts the new engine at a "permanent significant disadvantage"? If you want to oppose the Honda proposal, then just oppose it--killing it by writing the rules so that nobody would ever convert their car seems like a less efficient solution for everyone involved...

[kea]

Very nicely said Mike.

[R. Pare]

Just a couple of "what if's" on the Honda proposal.

What if,..... The Honda is approved and over time is moved up in performance ( through successfull lobbying) to the point that the Kent is no longer a competitive engine? Will you be "forced" to do the conversion to stay competitive? Will your old Kent engine be worth anything?

Everybody seems to forget that the club members have a vote on this sort of thing, so any "move up" would have to be approved by YOU - if you don't want it, you can vote against it. If enough vote against it, it should not happen.

Frankly, even if it DID happen, let's say in 5 years or so, is it really that big a deal? The Kent has run past its useful lifetime, at least as an economical engine. Do you really think that you will get new chassis and new drivers when the engine cost hits $15000+?

What if,..... The Honda becomes the dominant engine in the class. Do you now have to spend money like the Spec Miata guys and order up a dozen cylinder heads,short blocks and intakes to send to your engine builder and have them spend multiple hours on the dyno coming up with the best combination of "spec" parts to gain 2Hp.

You can do the same thing right now with the Kent, with the big difference being that only the best drivers can get those magical cylinder heads from their builders.

The real question is this: Will that sort of selective parts procurement actually get you anywhere? Frankly, I doubt it - modern manufacturing methods hold tolerances easily that were unheard of even 10 years ago.

What if,..... SCCA approves the Honda and now another manufacturer or individual want's their engine approved also. Will SCCA have to let that engine in or be subject to suit under restriction of trade law? Which they have been before and lost!

Do they have to approve another engine? NO!

Restriction of trade? Sorry, but this is a private club, not the open public market, and as such, the club can make just about whatever restrictions it wants.

What if,.... FF became a multi engine (See above what if) class. Would there be any parity among multiple engines? How would that parity be achieved? Who would test and adjust these engines to achieve the so called parity within the class?

It already is a "multi engine" class - 2 engines are legal right now. Unless YOU, the club members approve another engine, the parity issue is moot.

What if,... Formula Ford was left as a single engine class. A class that is consistently at the top of the participation numbers. A class that due to rules allowing alternate crank, rods,cyl head, pistons, ect, ect,.. do not seem to make parts supply a problem anymore. A class that with the "new" parts in an engine has been reported by top engine builders to go 50 hours between bottom end rebuilds. A class that has seen a resurgence in participation in the past year. A class that has successfully survived in SCCA for 40 years with no major changes to the rules set. A class that can get 200+ cars together at a single race if you call it an anniversary. A class that is not broken!

If you want to keep deluding yourself that 4-10 car fields, compared to 30+ car fields just a few years back, constitutes a healthy, and more importantly, growing class, then vote against the inclusion of this motor.

Ask yourself this: How many new cars have been produced in the last 10 years? 20? Compare this to the late '70s and early '80s when about 150 or so new cars were produced each year. It is all those cars produced 10 to 30 years ago that make up the fields, not new cars!

[JHaydon]

Marc, I can't disagree more with your assertion that what we need is a new class. "Too many classes" has been the complaint for many years now. And they're right -- nobody is building new cars to conform to classes as they now exist. The fashion is to build an entirely new car with the expectation that you'll get a new class written around it.

Let's skip the fact that FF was the second (currently active) SCCA class to be created exactly that way...

I think that's one reason why I am impressed with this proposal. Nobody is suggesting a new class; they are suggesting a way to reinvigorate an existing one.

I agree, the proposal isn't perfect. More people* need to be directly involved with tuning and tweaking the rules. After that, it's up to us to keep the Comp Board informed if any adjustments are needed. I think it's clear that the Zetec in FC process wasn't done well, but it seems to me that this proposal has been much more thoroughly researched and developed. That also impresses me -- nobody said "here's our only choice, let's see how it goes." Someone saw an engine and said, "hey, that could work -- let's see what we have to do to make it work well."

* = smarter than I

[Bob Wright]

A lot of the above sounds like what we went through with the Zetec in FC. Those lessons haven't been forgotten by the people putting this package together. I think this time around it will be a much smoother and quicker assimilation.

I haven't heard much, if any, squawking about lack of parity in FC this year. At the 40th, there was a good mix of Zetec/Pinto cars in the FC race with no clear advantage anywhere.

[Daryl DeArman]

At this point, I'm extremely skeptical and worried about the performance issues. There has only been ONE comparison, by ONE engine builder, and were 'told' that things are 'about' equal. There is no set data, and 'equal' to what? One great engine? one mediocre one, average is equal, but it has areas of higher torque? Where's the data set? Where is the PROOF OF COMPLIANCE that Honda is actually entering as an underdog engine.---there is no such documentation, nor a written requirement, unlike the zetec knowingly started as an underdog.

Seems to me I recall seeing a torque and horsepower curve of both the fit and a very good Kent motor here on this very forum.

What "proof" would satisfy you? How many engine builders? How many dynos? How many Fit motors get dynod? How many Kent motor dyno plots do you need to see?

THEN after the engine builders have a year, two or three to tweak some magic, spend untold $$$ (ala SM) finding, blueprinting, improving the Honda, DON'T TELL ME that at that point it won't be BETTER THAN TODAYS PROPOSAL. The best and brightest in their industry can't make any improvements to a package in 3 years? Say that and you're insulting them.

Absolutely they'll make gains. It has yet to be seen how large (or small) those improvements will be and at what cost.

....put the engine at a performance level that would be starting knowingly WELL BELOW below an AVERAGE KENT

You can't be serious. Well below and average Kent? Yeah, those would sell like hot cakes. What is the danger, from a competitive viewpoint of knowing your competitor has installed a motor that is equal to your own?

...they can go play in THEIR OWN CLASS, like every other group that wanted to fix what's wrong with (insert class letters here).

And if that happens enough times, those of you who so vehemently hung on to what was sacred with your "unbroken" class will be left standing in the paddock scratching your heads wondering where everybody went.

[dc]

I know of NO ONE who will go FF racing if this engine is approved. I know of SEVERAL who will quit FF if it becomes a multiple engine class.

Seriously, Steve? Who? I'd like to know exactly who would quit on FF if there is a new engine option.

I have talked to a LOT of people about this over the past few weeks, and I have heard of no one who even hinted at quitting the class—but many who said that they now have new interest in FF, or want to come back to the class because of the Honda engine option. There are two individuals who are actually interested in my DB1 for just that reason. And neither of them are current FF drivers. I have lost track of how many people who said they would have bought my car, but the engine sourcing issues are keeping them away from the class and my car.

Is perception reality or is the true reality just being ignored by those that it effects the least?



Lots of fuzzy logic, hypothetical situations and hyperbole here...

[racer27]

What if, nothing is done? Will FF grow? I don't see it happening without this sort of stimulus.

I think the Honda proposal, if approved, will attract drivers, will entice builders to build cars and buyers to buy them. I spoke to one driver this weekend who his very competitive FF for sale, with intent of buying a brand spanking new Fit equipped car. Would he be looking at a new car, if only 40 year old powerplant was the only option? Doubt it.

This proposal will make older cars available to be run as Kents or as conversion candidates. It will free up parts for Kent cars. Should increase field size, further attracting participants. Increased field sizes means more part sales and stronger vendor participation. You may be spending less on moter related parts, but more cars, running more will more consume tires, brakes, fluids, hardware, etc.

As for the parity question, that's a more complex. Parity or minor disadvantage with what? A Good regional motor? Avg national motor? I think it is important to know what the benchmark is. In many cases this will be a bump up in performance of typical regional racer, potentially allowing for more competitive performance.

The proposal is not perfect. People with more expertise and experiance then I have (Including some of those who worked on Zetec in FC) need to be levraged. Constructive input, tuning & adjusting is need to craft best solution before Honda decides to put money/effort elsewhere.

As evidence of renewed intrest in FF, I have 2 parties reasonably intrested in buying my Citation for conversion to FF Fit. My plan was to sell and get out at end of season, but now I may not sell, as a FF Fit conversion sounds attractive.

[PRS56]

Since I run a Club Ford with no chance of fitting a new engine into my car without considerable expense, I have been riding the fence as to whether or not this is a good thing for the class as a whole. I definately don't think that it will infuse new young blood into the class. No aspiring newbie FF racer is going to buy a turnkey car and then hack it up to put in the Fit. I see this realistically helping the serious national racer who has large engine bills because of the need for multiple rebuilds to stay competitive.
Having been on a previous FF Ad Hoc Cmte, I can assure you that the subject of engines was heatedly discussed, including multiple manufacturers entering the class.
My point in posting is that I kinda think that this is a done deal and that any emails to the Comp Brd will be viewed and filed away accordingly.
Hondas unveiling the engine at the 40th was certainly calculated for maximum exposure. During the same week, it hit Speed Channel as a rolling news blurb and their Press Dept had a decent size article placed in National Speed Sports News about the program.
You don't throw the weight of HPD and Honda Motors into a project like this unless you're pretty sure it will be viewed very favorably from the SCCA hierarchy and given the green light.
The one part of the puzzle is that I have not heard anything about is Enterprise. I would have thought that they might have taken an interest in this as well.
Before anyone takes me to task as a conspiracy theorist, I've just been around the club long enough (15 years) to get a sense of how things can and sometimes do work.
Just one competitors opinion.
Regards,

Greg Kokolus
PRS RH-01

[Matt King]

My point in posting is that I kinda think that this is a done deal and that any emails to the Comp Brd will be viewed and filed away accordingly.

I wouldn't bet against you on that!

[Greg Mercurio]

See my post in the FF For Sale section.

[stephen wilson]

I agree with one thing, no "competition adjustments". Either the Ford or Honda will come out on top, I don't really care which. It's no different than the Uprated superceding the Cortina. As has been mentioned, for the price of a Kent rebuild or two, you'd have a new Honda conversion.
Bill is right on about the $1300+ for a new block (which I currently need-anyone got one?!). I know my engine failure has me thinking about quitting racing.
Steve

[Unfortunate]

This is a done deal. The problem is not the motor, its the people overseeing the approval.
1. The engine has only been tested at the shop that started the proposal. (biased?)
2. The individual who got this whole Honda Fit engine going, has a father on the SCCA board.
3. That person on the board has already been calling prep shops to tell them to "forget the kent "stuff" the Honda Fit will be the dominant engine".

Its the SCCA, you think your opinion matters?

[Phil Wellner]

This is a done deal. The problem is not the motor, its the people overseeing the approval.
1. The engine has only been tested at the shop that started the proposal. (biased?)
2. The individual who got this whole Honda Fit engine going, has a father on the SCCA board.
3. That person on the board has already been calling prep shops to tell them to "forget the kent "stuff" the Honda Fit will be the dominant engine".

Its the SCCA, you think your opinion matters?

Mr. Ivey,

Can you share some details about which prep shops were contacted, and what their reactions were? It seems like an unusual request from someone on the board, even if they're in support of the proposal. Besides, with all due respect to the prep shop that does work on my car (and he is definitely due lots of respect, I certainly value his opinion), engine choice for my car is still my decision.

-Phil

[stonebridge20]

Guys, I did not start this thread because of some pillow clutching psychotic episode I had the night before. I spent a considerable amount of time yesterday on the phone with many people that are directly involved in Formula Ford and the leadership of SCCA. I talked to officials,engine builders,new to FF guys and guys like me who have been around for 25+ years. I made a call and asked one question. "What do you think of the Honda deal?" and sat back and listened. I was shocked at some of the information I heard. I was also shocked at the lack of information some of the current Formula Ford participants had on the Honda proposal prior to "voting" here or sending their opinion to the CRB. I posted some "what if's" to try and crack the surface on this topic. The "what if's" came from information I gathered in my phone conversations. All I ask is that you do your homework as I did and make an informed decision prior to voicing an opinion. Like I have said here before, I spent 4 years in GT3 and I'm no stranger to the self interest and lobbying within SCCA. With that in mind, I have seen numerous rules changes that served the individule and not the class as a whole. Also take into consideration that the classes within SCCA with the least stable rule set are the ones that start at the bottom of the participation list and work their way up as the rules set becomes more stable. This proposal will not effect me or my racing program wether it goes through or not. What this proposal will effect is the future of the class forever. I think this post has finally gotten into the deeper points of the subject and I welcome the input, pro or con.

Thanks, Mike

[Art Smith]

Steve-

depending on your definition of "new", there is and continues to be inventory of Uprated 1600 Kent Fords blocks for anyone interested in buying one AND for far less than $1300. case in point:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31661

yes it's in California but then again you can have as much or as little shipped as you choose. probably good cores for: crank, four rods, a flywheel, front & rear covers, cam & crank sprockets, intake manifold, cast iron head, set of rockers, springs, & pedestals, .......... who knows, parted out on the other coast it might even net you some cash??

advertised at the number one website for FF on the internet in plain view and NOT one inquirery in over seven months............. where's the facts and data that support the premise "the sky is falling" because there's no hardware??

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Unfortunate]

Mr. Ivey,

Can you share some details about which prep shops were contacted, and what their reactions were? It seems like an unusual request from someone on the board, even if they're in support of the proposal. Besides, with all due respect to the prep shop that does work on my car (and he is definitely due lots of respect, I certainly value his opinion), engine choice for my car is still my decision.

-Phil

Let me just say Mr. Ivey is my father, and this post has nothing to do with him. I answer the phones, and I posted this based on what people have called in and told us. Maybe they can come on here and post to shed some light. I wasn't trying to make it political (names staying omitted), I was just trying to point out this isn't about a shortage of parts or amount of time on rebuilds like the proposal states. Someone is benefitting and its not the racers spending 12.5k on an engine conversion, when current engines run for 50hrs and parts ARE available. You make a very valid point that all racers should realize, it is your engine and the decision is yours.

[stephen wilson]

Art,
Every engine/block I've inquired about so far still came to that $1300 price point after they were sleeved and prepped. I keep hearing how "abundant" these blocks are, but at a high price. I do have someone searching junk yards, and have gone thru tons of old posts, assuming anything older than a year or two is sold. I don't have the time to scour dozens of junk yards for years to source parts.
Steve

[Phil Wellner]

Agreed, hopefully the people you've talked to are willing to make their views known, either to the CRB or here. Based on the information that I have, I'm supporting the proposal, but that doesn't mean that I've stopped listening.

For what it's worth, I'm not too concerned with Honda's motivations for getting into the class--this is a business decision for them, and they're entitled to pursue it just like Mazda or any other manufacturer. The two things that interest me are a less expensive engine option and an engine that will reliably run longer between rebuilds. I'm relatively new to FF, and don't have a huge racing budget with which to get the track time that I need. I would also rather spend my time between races working on the chassis than tuning and maintaining a finnicky engine. And most of all, I'd rather run an engine that won't cost over $10k to replace if I have a major failure. Yes, the $12,000 conversion would be a big one-time cost, but I plan on racing in the class for long enough to make switching pay off.

As far as parts shortages go, Art's post is instructive: for about the price of an entire Fit engine (based on what others have posted here in the last week), I can buy the Pinto core from him and then spend a couple of grand to bring it up to competition specs--and that's just for the useable parts, it assumes that I have a race-prepped head and other parts ready to go. Are there some blocks available? Yes. But that's not the end of the story.

-Phil

[Stan Clayton]

This is a done deal.

If it is a 'done deal', then IMO it is because of the widespread support for it. The overwhelming percentage of letters the Club have received support Honda's proposal because the timing is right for a new engine, and because of the clear benefits to the members. Sort of like it was a 'done deal' once your dad had done his homework on the new CP pistons and the +.005 overbore...clear benefits to the members and broad support made it easy to approve.

1. The engine has only been tested at the shop that started the proposal. (biased?)

Did the CRB not accept your dyno results for the CP pistons? The answer is yes, and we did so because you and your dad have a history of being straight shooters with the Club. Same with Quicksilver. Their work on the Zetec project earned them a certain degree of confidence from the Club. If they're wrong, it will quickly show up on other dynos and the Club will take the appropriate action.

2. The individual who got this whole Honda Fit engine going, has a father on the SCCA board.
3. That person on the board has already been calling prep shops to tell them to "forget the kent "stuff" the Honda Fit will be the dominant engine".

Name names or it didn't happen...

Its the SCCA, you think your opinion matters?

Anybody who thinks your opinions don't matter to the Club is forgetting the intake manifold issue in FC. For it or against the Honda proposal, now is the time to write the BoD (bod@scca.com). The CRB have recommended it to them...now the ball is in your court.

[racer27]

. Someone is benefitting and its not the racers spending 12.5k on an engine conversion, when current engines run for 50hrs and parts ARE available.

Who benefits? I do, if it gives me a long life, modern engine I can race with in FF with minimal fuss, for a non-reoccurring investment of $12K. I benefit, if I can race with my Kent powered buddies. My Kent powered buddies benefit, as they'll have the other Fits to race against.


As was indicated in an earlier post, it's my money, my decision, nice to have the option. Everyone's position is going to differ based on their particular circumstances.

[Tom Valet]

For it or against the Honda proposal, now is the time to write the BoD (bod@scca.com). The CRB have recommended it to them...now the ball is in your court.

Stan, just to clarify, are we supposed to write to the BoD or to the CRB at this point? In another ongoing thread we were told to write to the CRB. Does the CRB forward input it receives to the BoD? Or do we have to write again to the BoD if we sent smoething recently to the CRB?

Thanks

Tom

[Matt King]

Stan, just to clarify, are we supposed to write to the BoD or to the CRB at this point? In another ongoing thread we were told to write to the CRB. Does the CRB forward input it receives to the BoD? Or do we have to write again to the BoD if we sent smoething recently to the CRB?

Thanks

Tom

Stan's post makes it sound like the CRB has already made a decision and acted on it. I'm not an expert on the process, but it seems like that happened pretty quickly. This has only been public knowledge for about a month.

[Stan Clayton]

Tom and Matt,

The CRB have already voted to recommend approval of the proposal to the BoD. You can see the exact proposal on the homepage at www.SCCA.com.

The BoD, and NOT the CRB, make the final decision, so yes, now it is time to write the BoD if you have not done so already.

Stan

[Dave Gomberg]

Let me add to what Stan wrote. Yes, the CRB plans to recommend the Fit package to the BoD, but if you read the introduction in the rule set, you will see that there are certain specs that are to be provided by HPD before they will be in their final form. The CRB welcomes your comments on the rules. If, for example, there are other details you think are needed, please let us know. We already know of one and have asked HPD for it (block deck height). We are trying to have as tight a package as possible to present to the BoD at their October meeting. Ultimately, the BoD will make the final decision.

Dave

[stonebridge20]

[QUOTE]

The two things that interest me are a less expensive engine option and an engine that will reliably run longer between rebuilds. I'm relatively new to FF, and don't have a huge racing budget with which to get the track time that I need. I would also rather spend my time between races working on the chassis than tuning and maintaining a finnicky engine. And most of all, I'd rather run an engine that won't cost over $10k to replace if I have a major failure. Yes, the $12,000 conversion would be a big one-time cost, but I plan on racing in the class for long enough to make switching pay off.

Phil, Some food for thought:

The Kent as long as you keep oil in it, the flywheel off the ground and keep the miss shifts to a minimum is not a finnicky engine. About the most simple engine I can think of except for steam powered.

50 hours between rebuilds of the bottom end on a Kent equal's roughly 5,000 miles. We average roughly 100 miles per hour with these cars on most of the east coast tracks. 100 X 50 = 5,000 ( Um,....same as the Honda)

When you solid mount a fuel injected engine in a chassis, how well do you think wiring and multiple sensors are going to hold up to the harmonics. Ask me how I know this as I look out my office door at customer CSR's and DSR's I have spent many hours on chassing electronic issues on. You think setting valves and checking timing is a pain. Hang over a car for a few hours "pining out" a FI harness!

[stonebridge20]

Tom and Matt,

The CRB have already voted to recommend approval of the proposal to the BoD. You can see the exact proposal on the homepage at www.SCCA.com.

The BoD, and NOT the CRB, make the final decision, so yes, now it is time to write the BoD if you have not done so already.

Stan

Thank you Stan.

So from this point on and for who knows how long now, the emails sent to the CRB are pointless. I would suggest that everybody pro or con write another letter/email and send it to the BOD.