Banshee in CFF

[Don Jones]

Any opinions on allowing the Banshee in CFF. Seems like a reallistic idea when you look at performance in the RCCA Sportsman class. 13K for a new race ready car looks good. Having RCCA as the only source for racing makes it a no go in my opinion. No offence to RCCA intended.
Thanks
Don

[rickjohnson356]

You would neeed to put a 1600 Kent (or Cortina) engine in it. Must have one end outboard suspension. You might be able to run a VW trans, but would definitly be out-of-league competition-wise.

usually cars are earlier than 1983 or so, depending on their Marque.

better to sell the banshee and buy an already eligible car.

[Roux]

Don,

some very nice CF's have passed hands lately for a lot less than $13K. Crossle and VD excluded, almost all of the others are fair game at below $10K and you will get wheel sets, spares and often a trailer. You then have the option to run anywhere. RCCA is happy to get SCCA cars in there, also EMRA and SCCA. So I suggest a car like the one Tod Powers sold will be the best bet. A late 70's CF with SCCA logbook and a ton of spares. The 3-6K you save on not going with the Banshee can fund a nice spare engine and a coupla rebuilds, thereby allowing for the extra cost of the Ford lump over the VW lump. Then in the long run I predict that the CF will hold its value, where as the market looking to scoop up used Banshees is not likely to be as strong. The cost of engine rebuilds will likely always be higher with Ford/Hewland, but it is about the only downside and in reality is only about 20% of my annual budget. So saving 1/2 of the rebuild costs will only net me ~10% less annual costs and the advantage outweigh that

my thoughts

Cheers

Steve

[Steve B]

There is no chance a Banshee or anything else that is not a Kent engined Formula Ford becoming CFF eligible on my watch.

Steve Beeler, de facto EWC commissioner + FF40th co-chairman
Lola T-540 HU44
home: (734)416-8865 sbeeler@wowway.com
office: (313)441-4460 x1141 sbeeler@pmcorp.com

[GeoffRain]

In addition to Steve's insights, you should consider that most of the important bits on a formula car (should) get rebuilt or replaced every few years anyway, so a good used car is a lot less used than it sounds... My Zink is 33 years old this spring!

Geoff

[Don Jones]

Pretty much what I expected. I agree 100%. I would much rather have an old Tiga than a new Banshee any day. No offense to the Banshee of course. Thanks everyone for getting me thinking straight. This cold has frozen my brain.

[Clyde]

A. J. "Buddy" Pugliese founded the Club Ford concept back in 1980. Buddy had set the lap record at Bridgehampton race circuit and was getting plenty of recognition but it all made him mad! He was getting all this attention because he finally had some decent tires; they were the tires Tom Davey used for qualifying, then Davey bought new tires for the main race. Buddy used the information he had gathered along with Drake Olsen, Frank Bernstein, Joby Graham and Joe Marchinski to start the Club Ford class. The focus of this division was a level and affordable way of entry level formula car racing. The first two seasons were shared with EMRA and the NE region of the SCCA. Even in those days the Club Fords were larger fields than the regular F/F class. When the SCCA recognized the popularity of this class and excepted C/F as a regional class Buddy was willing to turn it over but one of the original members of Club Ford, Ric Baribeault, asked that Buddy stay and keep the "Iron Fist" of control over the class as the "SCCA would only allow it to be an inexpensive way to spend a lot of money!" It seems Ric was right as many of the regions allow all kinds of "Trick" items; F-3 clutches, Aluminum Heads, Data recovery, etc and worst of all, sticky tires. Allowing the sticky tires makes the Crossle and Van Diemen F/F the only racecar to have. Lola, Zink, Merlyn, Macon, Caldwell, P.R.S., Tiga,and many others struggle against the highly developed Crossle or Van Diemen makes. Some drivers do well but they are the rare cases. Buddy does not let the "Inmates run the asylum". The Club Ford is the best way to get into Formula car racing, if the driver enjoys racing and wants to spend more money there are exsisting classes that allow for that but do not mess-up what attracted you into racing. When the Vintage clubs allowed F/F, the supply of eligable racecars was disappearing along with the zero sales of new formula fords, thanks to the American Swift, Buddy saw a need to supply the entry level driver with a reasonable priced racecar. The Banshee model numer is BTF-1600, that stands for Back to the Future (BTF) and 1600 to make it equal to the original Formula Ford specs. To make this racecar excepted by the SCCA was never Buddys thought. It seems that the TRUE Club Ford concept is alive and well within the Formula Race Car Club of America. Club racing is a sport and not a profession, some people can spend more than others; some people do not want to spend alot of money for whatever reason, they just enjoy a level playing field and that is how it should be. Many people would be bettter off to think about these facts.

[Roux]

My advice was to get an SCCA legal CF and then you can run with Buddy and the RCCA (they made us feel very welcome the time I ran there in 2007) and if you want to run some of the other tracks you shell out the big bucks and go SCCA racing. The only thing that you cannot do with that business model (unless you buy extra parts and do some swapping back and forth) is chase an RCCA championship in the restricted class of CF. In the NE you can pretty much find a place to play every weekend from may to september (with a few exceptions of course)

[Larry]

I've had the opportunity to actually drive a Banshee, and it is undoubtedly the BEST deal available in formula cars! The benefits of the Banshee are not just low acquisition price, but low overhaul cost for the engine and low gearbox costs--as well as controlled costs in many other areas (sorry, no $6,000 shocks allowed). I understand the reluctance of FF/CF to allow anything else in the class. It was a major crisis to get the aluminum head and a decent crank approved, and alloy calipers are unlikely. If the Banshee had been the FFirst instead of the mild changes to the FV, it would have been a tremendous boost to the class.

I was quoted a $900 engine rebuild. Engine acquisition costs are about 1/4 of a new FF engine. The performance of the Banshee is close to FF. It may lose out on top end, but it has better low-end torque. The entire Banshee design was created to keep costs low, make reliability high, and deliver true formula-car performance. I'd love to see the SCCA allow Banshees. It's what the formula car groupings really need...a truly inexpensive car with good performance.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[John Heckman]

Roux you have made a small mistake - you can chase a CF championship in the Formula Race Car Club of America it is a recognized class and has entries. This is a common misconception of the general public that the FRCCA is closed to cars other than our spec club ford classes. You are the second person this week that I have seen or spoken with that did not recognize the fact that the FRCCA does recognize ALL FORMULA CAR CLASSES AND HAS CHAMPIONSHIPS FOR EACH the rules for those classes (not FRCCA spec club ford classes) are the same as SCCA.
There will be much news coming from the club in the coming weeks, it has been a very busy winter so far and big news is on the horizon.
As far as the Banshee BTF1600 I own one and I own a 79 Zink. I won the Formula 1600 class championship this past season with the BTF1600 against a field of about 14 Ford spec cars registared in the class. While this was not CF or FF and is the Clubs Spec Club Ford class it is all relative, becuse the cars are all very equal in the club Spec classes. I am way over weight but I am still able to be competitive with the BTF1600. The car handles wonderfully and is very easy maintenance. I have found it much more fun than the Zink.
John

[racer27]

Roux you have made a small mistake - you can chase a CF championship in the Formula Race Car Club of America it is a recognized class and has entries. This is a common misconception of the general public that the FRCCA is closed to cars other than our spec club ford classes.

It is not limted to CF/FF, Several of us raced for the FC championship within FRCCA last season.

[John Heckman]

I was asked to put a few photos of the BTF1600 up so here they are.

[Roux]

Here is what I was trying to get at. FRCCA rules should be read and understood by anyone trying to make sense of their options in the NE.

I recall that there was a low cost CF rule set that did not allow too many mods over the original CF's from way back. That particular class ( I can't recall its exact name, but it has a fixed gear ratio set, and other limitations) is the one that I think a typical SCCA CF would not be elligible to campaign in unless such a car was somewhat retrofitted.

Did I say it right?

Cheers

Steve

[Larry]

I'm certainly not the expert in FRCCA rules, but I recall there are several variations within their FF classes. If you are running a "typical" SCCA FF with the 15 1/2 pound flywheel and Tilton/QuarterMaster-type clutch, you would be excluded from one of their classes, but I think allowed in another of their classes. Same goes for tires.

This isn't much different than CF, which is a regional-only class, with various regions allowing different cars/tires, etc. DC region now allows many cars up until about 1990 to run CF--again, I'm not certain of the details, just that they have opened CF up to many more cars.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[Marshall Mauney]

It's what the formula car groupings really need...a truly inexpensive car with good performance.

With all due respect, we have that - the F500.

[Bill Bonow]

With all due respect, we have that - the F500.

Marshall,

With all due respect, a new F500 ain't $13k.

[Clyde]

Also that F/500 does not come with REVERSE; not safe! I believe any racecar must have reverse. They have reverse in those "weight- saving- at- any- cost" F-1 racecars. Think about it!

[Racinggrl1]

Hello everyone... I missed apex for a while but I am glad to be back..

Anyways... This last year I had to put my hobby on hold for a career change but I hope to be back strong in 2009.

I have driven a banshee, back in 2004 and then I got my Lola T440 in 2005.

In FRCCA is really isnt about what you are driving but the fact that you are out there in a class that has rules which bring all the cars to a point where they are competitive with each other no matter what model make and year. Almost like a Skip barber drivers series or one of those where all the cars are the same and the drivers have to win

We spec class members really enjoy when other formula car drivers come out and race as well! One of my crew guys has a FV and he brings it out sometimes and gets to play as well as help me. We get wings who come and fly around

We are a community of formula car drivers... regardless of car class who get out and play with their toys and look out for their fellow racers!

See you in April!

Drag it out of the garage, dust it off and come play with your toys... thats what the hobby is all about.

[John Heckman]

The FRCCA does have a series of threads under independant organizations on Apex and I thank Doug for that. So Doug sorry for the long post here but here is where the question seems to be.

I know that some of you go right to the FF area of this site. I do want to say as the new owner and president of the FRCCA that we are 1st proud of our spec class having averaged approimately 16 to 17 entries per race in the spec class shows that there is a good place for it. Second that we are proud to be a FORMULA CAR ONLY CLUB.

The Spec class is different than FF and CF with respect to that fact that we do only allow stock clutches, less expensive than pure race clutches, we don't allow crank scrapers in this class to allow the free flow of oil to the all important mains and rods, many guys are getting over two 13 race seasons on a bottom end. We do have spec gear sets to use not really a big deal until you look at the cost of having all the gear sets you really need, they also keep the racing between the drivers and not the $$$$. We also have spec tires ... you can get a season on a set.

We do mandate a few extra safety items such as what we call DeCap bars - or if your front rool hoop is high enough to stop something from getting you under the chin. We also use a rear RICs (rear Impact Crash) same idea as what is on an Indy car just much cheaper. I have seen a car come straight down on one of these (I could tell because it had a straight exhaust and there was dirt 6" up the pipe) wreak the bar and never touch the rear cases of the Hewland, I'd say that $150.00 was less than I think around $600.00 for those bearing cases not sure but it did a good job. We have also Homoligated the 1600cc VW into the class to be a bit ahead of the curve incase parts ever get real hrad to get for the Fords.

They are not F500 they are every bit a FF as any out there just with some cost effectiveness thought into it.

I know that the spec class isn't everyones cup of tea so we do offer the "open" FF and any other formula car class that wants to run. We are not just a spec series we are a Formula car series.

Best wishes to all,
John
and if you have any questions take a look at the FRCCA thread and / or give me a call 570-669-9589

[Steve B]

I do appreciate (and respect) John Heckman's efforts with the FRCCA to make racing a formula car safer and less expensive. However, there is no chance of a Banshee or anything else that is not a Kent engined Formula Ford becoming Club Ford eligible on my watch. I am, however, still interested in expanding CFF chassis eligibility at some point in time after the FF40th.

Steve Beeler, de facto EWC commissioner + FF40th co-chairman
Lola T-540 HU44
home: (734)416-8865 sbeeler@wowway.com
office: (313)441-4460 x1141 sbeeler@pmcorp.com

[Don Jones]

It has been pointed out to me that the roll hoop of the Banshee is not SCCA compliant. Does anyone know if this has or can be changed.

[John Nesbitt]

It has been pointed out to me that the roll hoop of the Banshee is not SCCA compliant. Does anyone know if this has or can be changed.

Given enough money, most anything can be changed.

The point is that the Banshee, as presently configured (engined), does not fit into any SCCA open wheel class except FS.

I sincerely doubt that FF rules will change to allow the engine presently in the car. I would certainly write a hot and spicy letter to the CRB if it were proposed.

It comes back to what your objective is. If it's to race RCCA, then the Banshee makes some sense. If it's to race SCCA, then your $13K would be better spent on a 'real' CF.

[Clyde]

Don Jones; I do not believe the SCCA could control the Banshee in their idea of Clb Ford but with the price and performance of the Banshee It would be nice if enough drivers that wanted to race in a controled class they would buy enough Banshees to create their own class; that could race during the Club Ford event as the speeds are the same. But that thought would take some pioneers.

[iamuwere]

Also that F/500 does not come with REVERSE; not safe! I believe any racecar must have reverse. They have reverse in those "weight- saving- at- any- cost" F-1 racecars. Think about it!

They can have reverse, but why? I can only think of maybe twice on false grid I would like to have had reverse. Other than that, never would have had a use for reverse.

[John Heckman]

Steve,
Thank you for the reply; but the only point I was making was the differences.

I do not expect SCCA to change Formula Ford, or Club Ford (hence the names). SCCA is very entranched with the Ford classes (please don't take this wrong) but they have too much invested in FF and CF with sponsors etc not to mention cars already built and competiting in them, to change the classes. Where on the other hand I (FRCCA) don't. And In fact offer those very same classes in the FRCCA shows (FF and CF) at the SCCA specs. that is how much I respect the work SCCA has put into FF. I do not expect every driver to turn around and want to run an FRCCA Spec Class, again spec classes aren't everyones cup of tea.

Now, what I would like is the opportunbity to find out who to speak with at SCCA, and what I need to do to have my licenses approved for regional competition. I think it would benifit both the SCCA and the FRCCA. I know I am a small fish in your big pond but to be able to work together would be much better than to work against each other. Don't you agree?

Regards,
John

[Don Jones]

With the diameter of the hoops I don't think you could even enter in the FS class. That would be an option otherwise. I had a lazy spin in the rain during my drivers school at Summit Point ( FF) I was blocking the racing line with my nose on the apex curbing. Going forward was not an option. If a f500 was in that position a full course yellow would have been thrown. I put it in reverse and was on my way without affecting the flow of the session. I would NEVER race a car that does not have reverse.

[John Heckman]

Sorry I have always thought FORD saw the light and helped out with the FF class at the national level. If I was always right I couldn't drive poor joke.
John

[Marshall Mauney]

Also that F/500 does not come with REVERSE; not safe! I believe any racecar must have reverse. They have reverse in those "weight- saving- at- any- cost" F-1 racecars. Think about it!

Not true. Any new F500 with a 493 Rotax DOES have reverse. You seem to have an agenda here - would you mind telling us what it really is?

[John Nesbitt]

Now, what I would like is the opportunbity to find out who to speak with at SCCA, and what I need to do to have my licenses approved for regional competition. I think it would benifit both the SCCA and the FRCCA. I know I am a small fish in your big pond but to be able to work together would be much better than to work against each other. Don't you agree?

A good person to start with would be Terry Ozment, VP of Club Racing (tozment@scca.com). The general number for SCCA National is 800-770-2055.

[John Heckman]

Thank you!
John

[John Merriman]

John H. - First, congratulations on your new level of involvement with FRCCA. Buddy did a lot for the sport when he created the club and it's provided a good alternative racing venue for all those interested. All the best to you and the club. I raced with the RCCA in 1983-1985 and enjoyed some great race days going wheel to wheel with the likes of the late Bill Slowik and Dom Rella. Great guys and a lot of fun to run with. Running "The Bridge" clockwise on Saturday and the other way 'round on Sunday was fabulous!

EDIT - Apparently the SCCA has a process for recognizing licenses from other clubs and it's clear in the GCR The other requirement, of course, is that the cars will have to pass SCCA's tech inspection but again, that should not present a problem if the GCR is adhered to. As pointed out in the posts above, anyone wishing to enter a Banshee will need to be sure the car meets the GCR regs and, if so, they will clearly run in the FS class.

[John Heckman]

Thank you John,
I am only interested in getting Driver licensing if at all possible and working toward what we may have to do.
As far as the Banshee that part is up to AJ and Banshee Engineering.
I have a Zink and a Banshee an as you can see from above I do enjoy driving the Banshee. But again the car spec issues are between Banshee and SCCA not FRCCA and SCCA.
I am just trying to get all drivers on the same page so more and more options may be available to them in terms of where they can go, and maintain the respect of their fellow drivers.
Thanks,
John

[Don Jones]

Six years after my original post I am proud to say I now own a Banshee BTF 1600. I look forward to racing with the FRCCA this season.
I have also commissioned AJ to build a SCCA compliant chassis that can be run in FS. My plan is to build a 115hp variant with a Hewland gearbox. I will start a build thread when we get started for those interested.

[provamo]

GO FOR IT we need more FF's

[Don Jones]

A lot has happened since that original post. Honda motors, talk of spec tires. I love FF but not interested in a Kent motor and associated costs. I think the Honda makes a great package for those who can afford it.
The Flat Four motor ( nothing VW about it anymore) is the reason I am returning to the sport that I love. Low purchase and maintenance cost, easy installation via low weight and no liquid cooling system, readily available off the shelf parts.

I am having a blast digging into my new ride! The Banshee is a really nice package. Well thought out and easy to work on. I am looking forward to building " my take" on the car which I hope will be better suited to slightly higher HP and sticky tires.

[zcars]

Good luck with your racing Don ! I've seen banshees in action and they are pretty fast, I was able to drive one myself a few years ago (owner was nice enought to let
me use his car when my FF had issues) I liked the car overall and other than the
vast amount of space inside the car what stood out for me was how nice the shifting
action was compared to the formula fords I've driven, maybe it's the VW trans ?
Interesting plan you have of having another one built that will be SCCA compliant,
good luck with that project and AJ is a great guy and great to deal with, looking forward to seeing the build process.
Robert

[Don Jones]

Took the motor to my local VW specialist for a once over. The company ( LA Products) have built many FV motors over the years and specialize in off road applications.
The motor was as advertised and in good shape. I gave them the FRCCA motor rules for reference and they did the following.
Took apart and cleaned motor
Checked for worn or broken parts
replaced all bearings
Flycut heads to maximum allowed compression ratio
refaced flywheel ( something bounced around in there and tore things up)
assembled motor
installed new FRCCA legal clutch
Installed new disributer, points, condenser
Spent about an hour answering all my stupid questions
Total bill parts and labor
$749.00
I plan on getting the car on a chassis dyno in April to see what kind of HP it has.
I have seen 105 to 110 listed for a Banshee.

[Larry]

...did you leave off a "0"? If we could get a Kent motor to run for an average of $749/season, FF would have never considered the Fit!

AJ proved with the Banshee that you can design a reasonably-priced formula car with performance similar to FF at about 1/3 the cost. The real shame is that no one in SCCA worked to bring the car into the fold.

Larry Oliver

[Clyde]

Don, When you get the HP numbers also get the torque numbers as well, you will see why Larry Hit his head on the head rest each time he shifted. He enjoyed driving it soo much he rented the Banshee twice! The torque is high and that is what makes this racecar come off the corners like a "Banshee".

[Larry]

I have owned 6 FFs of various ages and makes, and I have driven and raced a rented Banshee. The Banshee has far more low-end torque, and top end HP is similar to FF. The Banshee is easier to maintain--engine pulls (while rare) are simple, as is suspension R+R. IF SCCA somehow saw fit to allow the Banshee I would definitely choose it over FF...and I remain and have always been a proponent of FF and formula cars in general (with the possible exceptions of FA and FE).

Larry Oliver