Bonneville

[dalz]

Just caught NatGeo's very nice show about Bonneville Speedweeks. Has anyone here been out there as a participant or otherwise? Is anyone a title holder of some sort in both SCCA and at the Salt Flats? Have to get out there someday....

Dale V.

[Rick Iverson]

I was Ron Boland and Dan Storhoff's crew chief for two Lotus 61E FFs in the early 70s. Both left SCCA in the early 80s, but Dan continued with this venue:

- Home town: Winona Mn.
- Class: Unblown Gas Roadster pictures
- What: FI flathead
- Team: Flatliners Speed Society
- Year: 1998
- Speed: 153.603
- Result: World Record
- Legacy: The Flatliners have been racing their 1931 Ford Model A Roadster at the Bonneville Salt Flats in Utah since 1995, and has held World Land Speed Records in four racing classes, currently holds world records in two classes.

Iverson

[DanW]

"Formula Ford racer and drive train guru Craig Taylor broke a U.S. speed record at the Bonneville salt Flats in an electric car built by Ohio State! His fast run was 271+ MPH in a 4000 lb. electric car! He said the most exciting thing was getting it stopped!"
- Wes Allen Merlyn MK-025 #62 CFF

[Frank C]

For the many of us who enjoy British cars:
There is an effort to repeat Donald Healey's 1954 24 hour endurance run at Bonneville with a recreation of the car. The car is beautiful. The original record and the new program are described on the web site, which has very nice graphics, including a video of the original run ("Previous Record"). Carroll Shelby was one of the 5 drivers.
http://www.healeyendurance.com/

- Frank C

[reidhazelton]

Don Shelton is a long time racer from the Southeastern Wisconsin area. He set a record at Bonneville sometime in the mid 90's (I don't know what class, but I think the speed was 147 and change maybe?). Impressively, his record stood for about 6 years, which is a very long time from what others have told me. Usually that stuff gets broke nearly every other year. I did all, and I mean ALL, the bodywork on the car a few years ago when the National Studebaker Museum wanted to put it in their display of "famous" Studebaker race cars. When I went to his house to help him pull it out, from all the years of salt we literally pulled the quarter panels right off it. The salt is death to the cars. After they came back the car had to be stripped, and yet the salt still won in the end. He said being out there was an experience to say the least. Much different than club racing in his opinion.

Max LaGod (SCCA GT-1 2-time Nat Champ in 95 and 96, could be 96 and 97, and a long time Trans-Am driver with 70 starts to his credit) set a record in a diesel powered Ford Ranger a few years ago. There are pictures of it on their website, www.gohypermax.com

If anyone has yet to see the movie The World's Fastest Indian you should. Great movie. About a older gentleman who goes to Bonneville in a homebuilt 1920's Indian motorcycle.

[Daryl DeArman]

That studebaker class designation "F/GCC" is deciphered as such...

First letter signifies engine displacement F is Under 3.0 Liters (183 cu inch)

If there is "B" after the forward slash the engine is BLOWN, no B and it's naturally aspirated.

The next letter will be either a G or F (Gas or Fuel)....Alcohol, Nitromethane and Nitrous Oxide automatically put in the fuel class. Gas is anything else.

The remaining sequence of letters describes the chassis/body family and the associated rules they must follow (Think GT vs Prod vs T vs SS) In this case CC is "competition coupe and sedan"--certain aero tweaks allowed. They have other classes such as Production, Truck, Roadster, Lakester, Streamliner.

The current Bonneville "F/GCC" record has stood since 2002 at 172.121mph.

[Daryl DeArman]

In case anyone is thinking about breaking a Bonneville record with their formula car, the naturally aspirated on gasoline lakester class record for 1.5 to 2.0 L motors is 211.463 mph. The 1.0L record for you FB guys with gears turning is 227 mph.

If anyone wants to browse the Bonneville records. A friend of my Dad's owns all three of the big displacement Blown Fuel Lakester records....recently went 360mph with a "B" motor. AA is what the Top Fuel guys run with NHRA, "A" is big block stuff less than 500ci, I think "B" is something shy of 450 cubic inch limit.

http://www.scta-bni.org/SCTA-NewWeb/...recs_cat_a.htm

[-pru-]

In case anyone is thinking about breaking a Bonneville record with their formula car, the naturally aspirated on gasoline lakester class record for 1.5 to 2.0 L motors is 211.463 mph.

Thanks for the info. I have to admit that this idea has come up a few times at the end of the day while sitting in the paddock looking over the DB-1. Something along the lines "just how fast do you think you that car would run at Bonneville?" Ideas range from keeping the car "FF legal" to swapping out the Kent for a 2.0 Cosworth!

For fun, I would like to try to run a "FF legal" down the course. I've heard/read that the top speed recorded of a club raced DB-1 FF is around 150. I would be curious to see if, with the right prep (gearing / tires / etc.) the DB-1 could run anywhere near 175.

To break the 211 record, I think that a DB-6/LD200 in FF trim (sans wings) with a 2.0 Cosworth would be needed!

One day...

[Daryl DeArman]

To break the 211 record, I think that a DB-6/LD200 in FF trim (sans wings) with a 2.0 Cosworth would be needed!

I think you'll might need a little more grunt than that. Searching this forum some, I then plugged a Cd of .6 and a frontal area of 9.5 square feet and came up with just shy of 400 HP needed at the wheels. Maybe a pair of mated DSR motors....

using the same Cd and Area 145 MPH takes 121HP, 135 MPH takes 98HP, 175 mph (your target) would take 212HP. Remember no draft or wind aided mph. Perhaps the drag numbers are a tiny bit high, but to hit 175 mph with 110ish wheel HP and the same frontal area would take a Cd of .3 or less---not aware of any open wheel cars in that range.

[Joefisherff]

Former FC driver Mark Dickens recently broke into the 200 MPH club in the GM creation using many Van Diemen components, here is a link to the post:

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/show...t=mark+dickens

[Mike Allison]

The majority owner of AeroDYN and A2 Wind Tunnels, Gary Eaker, has a world record run at Bonneville. In the mid-eighties he ran an avg of 297+mph in a stock bodied Pontiac Firebird. He was an employee of the GM Wind Tunnel at the time. Gary was disappointed he failed to get into the 300 MPH club, having run the first leg at over 300. On the second he blew a clutch near the end of the run and still managed the 297 average. He broke the existing record by more than 40 mph.

We went back to Bonneville in 2005 and here's a link to some photo's.
http://cid-1ca7b222416fd1c6.skydrive...spx/Bonneville
A2 Wind Tunnel has accomodated many Salt Flat cars and a few have set records after visiting.

I have retired, but I have heard rumors that Gary is at work on another concept car for the Salt Flats. It may involve high speed and great gas mileage. I'll try and keep you informed.

It was a surreal place to visit and the most informal race meeting I've ever attended. Notice the WIDE variety of cars.

Mike

[-pru-]

...175 mph (your target) would take 212HP...

Thanks for the feedback! Looks like we'll skip to right to DB-6/Cosworth for the 175 target!

Your point raises a good question; can anyone confirm the Cd of a DB-1 or DB-6/FF?

[Frank C]

Jm Wade (whom I believe is behind the aerodynamic race mirrors discussed here recently) wrote an article in the January 2002 SportsCar about testing the Nosler/Porter/Nunes DB6 in the Wichita State low speed wind tunnel in 2001. He knows the Cd answers, but the numbers were considered proprietary and not divulged in the article. It is a nice article. To back things out approximately, one first has to get people to agree on the real top speed!
- Frank Chambers

P.S.
I agree that "The World's Fastest Indian" was a great movie.

[Daryl DeArman]

From a thread here almost 4 years ago:

Guys, I dug up the following data for frontal area:
ADF MkII 1351 in^2
Crossle 35F 1331 in^2
Lola T-540 1255 in^2
PRS RH01 1302 in^2
Van Diemen RF79 1354 in^2
Zink Z-10 1339 in^2
This was published in "Sports Car', Oct 1979. Super Test written by Paul Pfanner. No explanation as to how it was measured.

[Rick Iverson]

I was hooked up with this guy that wanted to sell his WWII P-51 belly tank car for $11k. Can't remember the engine, but it WAS tempting. It would appear as though all those folks have a good time. After all, that's what it's all about!

Can't help imagine what it is like when the big boys come to play.

[dalz]

Great stuff.

I would think any OW car would have problems overcoming those lousy "OWs". A castoff NASCAR "car of yesterday" might be a good starting point for a CC. What grenade of a motor do you dare drop in it?

[Daryl DeArman]

Here is an example of a CC that most would refer to as "fully prepped":

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...&currentPic=80

An example of a belly tank lakester:

http://purplesagetradingpost.com/sum...&currentPic=98

[Beartrax]

I was hooked up with this guy that wanted to sell his WWII P-51 belly tank car for $11k. Can't remember the engine, but it WAS tempting. It would appear as though all those folks have a good time. After, that's what it's all about!

Can't help imagine what it is like when the big boys come to play.

Would the engine be the Rolls Royce Merlin that they used in the P-51 Mustang airplanes?

[Bill Kincaid]

My friend John Buddenbaum (who's raced all kinds of stuff, including a homebuilt front-engined FF!) recently set a Bonneville record of 144.966 mph with a 50cc streamliner. It's a beautiful piece of work- 100% his own design and construction. Check it out at http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3

[Stan Clayton]

Is anyone a title holder of some sort in both SCCA and at the Salt Flats? Dale V.

Arnie Loyning won the Runoffs in CSR in 2005 and in 2007 set a new land speed record for a stock pickup class. I don't recall the exact class, but he put a Toyota Atlantic engine in a Toyota compact pickup for the run.

[Peter Olivola]

Ted Wenz, of Marcovicci-Wenz Engineering has a Bonneville record at 255 MPH.

http://www.september8th.com/news_bonneville1.htm

[Daryl DeArman]

Arnie Loyning won the Runoffs in CSR in 2005 and in 2007 set a new land speed record for a stock pickup class. I don't recall the exact class, but he put a Toyota Atlantic engine in a Toyota compact pickup for the run.

Time to dust off the cobwebs on that pickup. A Naturally aspirated Atlantic motor on gasoline is in the the "G" displacement class. Record was broke last August with a run of 129.694 mph


F Flying Red Brick Dave Kennamer 8/08 132.072
G White Goose Bar Racing / Sloan Keith Pedersen 8/08 129.694
H Jesse's Truck Shop K. Winders 9/07 114.064

[Stan Clayton]

My bad...it looks like Arnie built the engines, but he wasn't driving.

Portland Tribune story

[DanW]

Growing up in Socal in the mid 50s through the early 60s we sometimes saw the "lakesters" covered in dust as they passed the family wagon on the highway. Most were flat towed or on open trailers. Many looked to us like old jalopies, others were highly modified. Once I remember seeing a "tank car" made from a belly tank on the back of a flatbed truck. We lived within earshot of Pomona Fairgrounds dragstrip, and only 8 miles from Irwindale. There was also OCIR, Lyons, and Fontana.

When I was a sophomore in high school(1967), I went for a ride with one of my friends to a speed shop in Pomona, on Mission Blvd, a few miles from the Pomona dragstrip. He had saved some money to buy axles for his 390 Cougar. The shop was called Summers Brothers Machine. There was a "Home of the Goldenrod" sign on the front of the shop.

In the back side of the shop, under blankets, was the Goldenrod. I had never seen anything like it. Bill Summers very proudly pulled off the blankets from his and his brother's creation. He opened the canopy and lifted the cover from the 4th engine to show us. Four injected Chrysler Hemis, all wheel drive, all coupled together. The way they packaged the four engines, fuel tanks and accessories was amazing.

I understand its being restored and will be in the Henry Ford Museum.

http://www.hotrod.com/featuredvehicl...rod/index.html

I believe the goldenrod record stood until 1991.

A few years ago, my son gave me a book called "Dry Lakes and Dragstrips" by Dean Batchelor. The photos and history on the pages are amazing. One chapter about Bonneville shows a very young and grimy Dan Gurney getting ready to make the trip from Riverside CA to Wendover, another of him in the car at the startline.

[David Ferguson]

We went to Bonneville for the first time this past year with Roger Lessman.

He owns/drives a twin-turbo V8 (1000 hp running on CNG) 4-wheel drive streamliner designed & built by Riley Technologies (Bob Riley). We only made 1/2 of a record run, at around 311 mph, we melted a piston preventing a re-run.

Here's some more details:

http://lessmanracing.com/

[Rick Iverson]

I was a sophomore in high school (1967).....

Summers Brothers Machine ......"Home of the Goldenrod"

Now that brings to mind some memories. I graduated in 1967 from a Whittier HS (Vicki, Dean Moon's daughter was a classmate, although two years my junior). You can not believe the racing scene: Super Stock street cars cruising Bob's on Whittier Blvd., L.A. Roadsters, the incomparable BEAN BANDITS, Summers Brothers, and Craig Breedlove .... now that was life in the fast lane!

[Joefisherff]

Okay Rick I've got to question your sanity of moving from California to Minnesota.... unless you were ahead of the curve and knew we were all going to suffer from the global warming! Ha!

Sounds like a cool time to be around a bunch of Hot Rods!

[D.T. Benner]

Like Rick I was in So. Cal. at that time. (1950-1970) and the place was a Car Nut's dream. My brother was 3 years older and I got to grow up fast with him and his friends.
We stuffed big V8's into anything and everything (how about a V8 in the back seat of a Renault Dalphine) and I'm still surprised most of us lived to tell about those days!
Road racing was my big interest but you had to be 21 to race in Cal. Club so I watched everything at Riverside,Pamona, Willow Springs and Golita while racing at Lions,San Fernando,San Gabe.,Fontana and Carlsbad.
I saw Mickey Thompsons 4 engine car right after they returned from the salt
Also got to see Tommy Ivo's 4 engine Dragster being built in Kent Fullers shop from an idea chalked on a shop floor and layed out by rolling 4 blocks and some big tubing around till it looked "right" No CAD programs in those days. People built whatever they could dream up and it was a great time to be a Gear Head!
Hey,I don't live in the past and am having more fun right now than ever but that was a special time.

[Daryl DeArman]

I have a job on Brooks Street in Montclair on Monday, I'll see if I can find a few minutes to drive by the old Summers' Bros. building and cruise by their new shop and snap a few photos.

A google search shows they have a new location. The street view doesn't show the address so it is probably in an industrial complex off the street. I'll check it out.

[modernbeat]

I don't know how I missed this the first time.

But 2008 was my 13th trip to the salt over the last 20 years. This year we ran into teething issues (ECU, boost, wiring) on the American Eagle II, a tubo-Busa powered fuel lakester. We'll be out there again this year trying to push our class record past 200mph.

[bryancohnracing]

My friend John Buddenbaum (who's raced all kinds of stuff, including a homebuilt front-engined FF!) recently set a Bonneville record of 144.966 mph with a 50cc streamliner. It's a beautiful piece of work- 100% his own design and construction. Check it out at http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3

I was fortunate enough to attend the BUB Speedweeks for bikes in 2008 and happened to spend some quality time roaming the tech lines. I had a good look at the above mentioned machine. Wish I knew the gent was a FF racer as we could have had some laughs!

I'd always wanted to go, so even though it was bikes my trip was a dream come true.

My take:
Bonneville is the last place where there are no limits. It is an aww inspiring place to visit. The history, the serious nature of speed, the work of the people that put on the events, everything is just amazing.

Where else can you drive as fast as you want on the way to the paddock?

I got a nice tour of these fine pieces:
www.seven-streamliner.com/
www.50cc-land-speed-racing.com/

I also took some time to hike in the Silver Mountains west of the flats. While they look close its about 20 miles to the mountains from the paddock area.

I will go again!

Bryan

[Frank C]

The 50cc streamliner is really impressive - I don't think anyone would guess it could go so fast. In contrast, there is a story in the NY Times on a planned speed record attempt with a modified surplus F104.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/21/sc....html?_r=1&hpw

- Frank C

[Bill Kincaid]

John Buddenbaum's streamliner set a new 125cc record at Bonneville- 187 mph!

http://www.geocities.com/buddfab/buddfab3

[milesmcewing]

The Majestic Eagle!

I remember taking that apart in Kevins garage a couple of times.

He offered me the chance to drive it this year, who did drive? I spoke to a woman in Texas who had and was going to, but did not hear the results.

Happy trails!
Miles

[Frank C]

The November issue of Healey Marque has an article with lots of pictures of two Australian Austin Healeys that were at Bonneville this year. They were recreations of the 50's record cars. One is like the British recreation which hasn't gotten there yet, I believe. The pictures are very nice. One shows the way the cars throw up the salt.
- Frank C

[modernbeat]

The Majestic Eagle!

I remember taking that apart in Kevins garage a couple of times.

He offered me the chance to drive it this year, who did drive? I spoke to a woman in Texas who had and was going to, but did not hear the results.

Happy trails!
Miles

The woman was Brianne Corn, my girfriend. We ended up pulling out, but Kevin took it out to the salt even though it wasn't ready to race. I heard that Tech gave him a laundry list of things that had to be fixed before it ran. Because some of them involved real fabrication that the team couldn't accomplish on site, they packed it in and returned to Texas.

I hope Kevin can get it worked out this year. That car has some potential, but the window is closing as the records get pushed up.

[Rick Iverson]

”.........His fast run was 271+ MPH in a 4000 lb. electric car! He said the most exciting thing was getting it stopped!"
- Wes Allen Merlyn MK-025 #62 CFF

Now that was funny. M1V1=M2V2. Know Craig very well.

[dc]

omg rick, this post is older than my oldest daughter by 3 weeks.

[Rick Iverson]

omg rick, this post is older than my oldest daughter by 3 weeks.

LOL. This is what happens when Apex is your life

[t walgamuth]

1. Would the engine be the Rolls Royce Merlin that they used in the P-51 Mustang airplanes?

I don't think that would fit.