Trying to understand operating budget

[lancer360]

As part of my research into FF I'm trying to get a handle on the operating budget.

My first point of confusion is on engines. I have been doing a lot of reading in the archives as well as talking to a few people and I have heard rebuild costs are $3500 to $8000 and from every year to several years and from 20 hrs to 50 hrs. Is there a realistic number or are all of these numbers correct?

Here are the regional rules for SEDIV SCCA. What (if any) affect do the following rules have on an operating budget? I did a search on the R60 and found info on tire pressures and setup info, but nothing on life expectancy. What is the life expectancy of the R60 tire?

Permitted modifications: (Nothing in these permitted modifications shall supersede restrictions as set forth in the GCR.
· Club Ford cars may be up-dated provided the basic configuration is unchanged. Heat exchanges shall not be relocated to an inboard position amidships and suspension(s) and front brakes shall not be converted to inboard configuration.
· The manufacturer’s basic body design shall be used. Aluminum substitute or one-of bodies are permissible only if original body work is unrepairable or unobtainable; however variant should conform in appearance and dimension to original.
· Use of carbon fiver type material is prohibited. Aluminum underbodies/skidpads are permitted.
· Coil springs, shock absorbers, anit-roll bars, steering rack and wishbones are free provided they fit the original locations.
· Make and update of drive shafts is free.
· Any modification of which the sole purpose is to increase driver safety is allowed.
· Club Formula ford cars shall carry the class identification of CF governing identifying marks.
· Spec Tire Hoosier R 60

Thanks!

[Purple Frog]

Great questions!

I have previously posted a lot on this subject in the "Getting Started" section. I basically run CFC which is very much like CF in terms of cost of operation (old engine technology, older chassis configuration, etc. etc.) The big difference is that if you run the spec r-60 type tire you might get more cyles than I (but i am famous for getting all the good out of a set of tires).

Anyway, through an anal habit of keeping expenses documented on a excel spreadsheet since 1998, I can tell you if you do a lot of your own wrenching, sleep at the track, use a 10 year old truck, and put a lot of cycles on tires it will cost $1,500 - $1,700 per weekend, averaged out over years. I've done 63 races at a cost of $107,016.41. And that is cheap. I am aware of folks spending much more than that in a season.

Start with that baseline and you'll be safe.

[lancer360]

Thanks! I forgot to run my search in the getting started thread. I had limited it to the FF section. I'll try rerunning the searches and see what it turns up.

[Larry]

First thing in budgeting, you have fixed and variable expenses. The price of the car, tools, trailer, equipment are fixed expenses. They are independent of the number of races. These are fairly easy to predict and track.

Your variable expenses are directly related to how often you race (and how well you stay out of trouble). Variable expenses are fuel, consumables, tires, engine overhaul, crash damage, replacement parts, etc. You have some control over these.

Tires: You can probably do 10 races on a set of tires before they wear out. They will be hard as rocks after about race 4. Some guys replace tires every weekend, while most do 2-3 weekends.

Entry fees: Depending upon track and event, typically $175.

Engine overhaul: Typically 10 races, but often a head refresh after 5. The top line engine builders change out nearly everything, and a $4,000 budget is a good estimate. Do it yourself, change only bearings and a general freshening, and you're under $1,000, but you may have some power and reliability issues. Can you do more than 10 races without an overhaul? Probably, but expect to be down a bit on power, and I'd shift a bit earlier than usual. If you grenade an engine, the price goes north in a hurry!

Crash damage: Impossible to predict, regardless of how good or cautious you are, because you can't control the others around you. Knock a corner off, and figure $1,500 as a ball-park estimate. Figure that you may lose a nose every 10 races. Repair it yourself for $5 (and many hours), or buy a new for $400. Bend the frame...

Purple Frog is the resident expert on tracking expenses, and also the self-proclaimed "King o'Cheap." He figured about $1,700 per weekend. You might be that fortunate; you might not. Remember, however, that you should break out your fixed costs from your variable costs. Don't just plop your entire racing budget into your fixed costs.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[cooleyjb]

I'm a year ahead of you.

The first year costs a lot more than you think but after that it's much nicer.

Including the cost of the trailer, car and all the other things I had to buy that were specific to the formula car or racing I was just at 3,000 per race I attended. Excluding the car and trailer it was under 1K. I added up all the receipts once and then shredded them, burned them, spread them over 7 states so the wife couldn't find out.

I too race in CFC and not CF and I happen to be moving to Durham in June and will be racing in the SEDIV.

Nice thing about racing in the CFC or CF you won't see as many people buying the big money motors. Right now CFC is great because everybody is dumping the Pinto motors on the market and the price is getting pushed down. My rebuild with me turning all the wrenches of getting hte motor in and out of the car, etc. is going to be around 3K. I'm not doing anything to it to really push it to the edge. I told the builder I'd sacrifice some power for longevity. I also won't be running the motor past 6500RPM and other things to stretch the motor out as long as possible. Will it work? I hope so. If it doesn't bummer. I'm fine with being a bit down on power right now. The slow part of the equation in my car is still the driver and while a couple of HP will help it isn't going to be as dramatic as the nut behind the wheel increasing his corner speeds.

In my opinion. The BIGGEST way to reduce costs is to buy a car that has been thoroughly gone through recently, has a well known high quality maintnence history and has readily available parts along with a good spares package. Sure the 7500 CF might be a great price but there is a chance it will need all new rod ends, a new motor, a new belly pan, and a has no spares. I'm sure there are some that are out there for 8K that might be great and run with minimal maintnence for the next 2 years as well. Pay a little more up front for a nicer car with a good spares package and you'll most likely be a happier camper in 12 months.

[lancer360]

I already have a tow vehicle and enclosed trailer that I use with my Elise, so it will easily handle a formula car. That really should help the first year operating budget. Hopefully the fixed costs won't be too much more than the initial car purchase (with a good spares package) and maybe a few tools that I may not have. Towing and travel/food expenses should be pretty much what I am already used to with pulling the Elise around to various track days. Hell, I even pulled it 1800 miles from Charlotte to Aspen and back last year. That was a nasty fuel bill at 8.5 mpg! I'm just trying to get a handle on the direct car operating costs. I know it is going to be way more than the Elise. It was pretty easy on the brakes (relative to Vettes and other heavy cars) and really just needed fluid changes and with the RA1's I got a full season out of them. Now what I spent on safety and performance upgrades is another story! Off the top of my head, I figure I spent around $7K on parts with the Elise in a year, not counting consumables like brakes, tires, fluids. I'm meeting with a local prep shop next week to discuss a lot of these items, and if I am lucky he might even have a FF or two for me to sit in.

[RoadHazard]

Sounds like you've got a pretty good handle on it. Already owning the tow vehicle and trailer takes care of a lot of the fixed overhead costs. Then there's the cost of the race car itself and some new tools and parts, as you pointed out.

Once those fixed assets are out of the way, your biggest costs will be tires, engine rebuilds, broken pieces, entry fees, fuel, and travel expenses. As others have pointed out, you can stretch out the tire budget and/or the rebuild budget to suit your taste. ("Speed costs money; how fast do you want to go?") You can replace your tires every weekend or you can try to make 'em last half the season. You can rebuild your engine twice a year or you can do it once every three years. Your call.

The cost of brake pads and fluids is negligible. Formula cars don't use much of either.

Figure a few thousand dollars for safety gear including firesuit, helmet, HANS, gloves, shoes, Nomex undies, etc. Like the other assets, these will last several years so you could amortize that cost over the life of the equipment if you want.

Buy a good car, not a trailer queen or a U-Build-It project. Seriously, you'll save money -- not just in the long run, but almost immediately. Watch it come off the track, grab the rollbar with one hand, write a check with the other, and don't let go. You'll find plenty of things to tinker with or adjust on even the best-prepared car.

Don't expect to modify your car in any significant way. It's fun to read the SCCA rulebook and daydream about making modifications that exploit loopholes but realistically, you won't have the time or the money, and all the significant loopholes wwre discovered 20+ years ago anyway. (That's another reason to buy a currently running car instead of one that's been parked for years.) I used to dream of elaborate aero modifications and paint jobs; now I'm happy just to patch the car with colored duct tape.

[lancer360]

From what I have gathered and looking at what I spent on the Elise in a year, I can afford to do either F500 or CFF if I sell the Elise. At this point it really comes down to the cars. Hopefully seeing some cars both in the garage and on the track and visiting with owners of both will help make the path forward clear.

[Joe911]

You can find many threads on costs. PF's cost including buying cars seems about right. Once the car, trailer, safety equiptment are paid for - I estimate $1000-1200 per weekend (travel - entry - misc parts and fluids) but I travel all across the SE to races and do most test days. Unless something big breaks or you crash. Interesting that should a crash occur the salvage value of engine and trans alone is $5000-$6000. So a write-off is not a total loss. (Still dont' do it!)

FF engine - new lighter flywheel weight, forged crank ($850) and pistons ($550) increase between rebuild time considerably once they are installed. From my experience - $2000 engine rebuild in 12 weekend and most test days (32+days) Rollin Butler said it still looked good and I could have gone longer. A recent head refresh from Rollin was less than $200 including gaskets. Now that I have the above upgrades, current plans are for head refresh at 8 weekends and total rebuild at 16.

Trans = as long as you get a good one - minimal costs.
Tires = I have replaced them at about 35 heat cycles - flip them once or twice along the way. They are not getting slower I just get tired of them. I do bag them between races. Many CF racers tell me they buy a new set once a year.
CV at $100 once a year??
Brake pads - once a year
Rod ends PRN or once each 25 weekends.
Shocks - make sure they are good when you buy the car - ($800-$2000 new) - rebuilds seem to be $500 for a set of Koni/Penske
The best part is that most popular CFs are all competitive (plus competitive with most F500 and all but the fastest FF) - no modifications to do - best driver mostly always wins regardless of make or engne mileage.

Joe Riley CF

[DrJim]

I bought a nice clean looking 1984 Swift DB-1 FF package and the first time out found it had a few issues - one of the more humbling weekends of my life. So, I chose to rebuild it. Sent the engine out for rebuild to Charlie Williams (neat guy by the way). He liked the head, rods, rocker arms and dry sump - all else was replaced for valid reasons. Cost $7,500. Sent the gear box/diff to Tayor (also good people) and they did a proper repair on it. Cost $7,000. Sent the shocks to Koni for rebuild. Cost $1,200. Then comes rebuilding the chassis, work I did myself. If there was a hole that a bolt went thru, it needed to be repaired. The bell housing/oil tank had to be rebuilt. New floor pan. Stripped powder coating from frame. Re-eingineered fore/aft rocker pivot bearings to a solid shaft from the original bolt in aluminum design. Made a fully adjustable (4.5") pedal set - most complicated job of the rebuild. Modified the foot box to take my 14's crammed into a 13 boot. Reworked all the fiberglass after stripping 5 coats of paint. And the list goes on. Ok, so I like doing this stuff, have a full machine/weld shop in my garage, and will pay the price (money or labor) to do it right. The point is that you either race inferior equipment or pay the price of a new car - one way or the other. All costs in over the first year, the first race will cost over $50,000. By the way, worth every penny of it - spending my kids inheritance and telling them how much fun it is. Makes the Skip Barber option look cheap, if you are an accountant.

I searched a lot of cars before selecting the FF. The key is to get a car you can afford even if it is a kart. If the car is too expenive for you, the economics will qucikly take the fun of racing and your family life - a situation to be avoided. Wishes for rewarding racing.

[Charles Warner]

Dr. Jim's tale brings up a very valid point - one which goes against much of the previous advice found in this thread. IMO do not seek the perfectly maintained and latest-and-greatest car. Look for the trailer queen or garage queen that has been thrashed, and is purported as such. Come to an agreement up front that the car needs a total rebuild and pay an appropriate price. Assume the engine and gearbox need a rebuild. Assume the shocks need rebuilding. Assume all rod ends need replacing. Assume the fuel cell needs work. Assume a complete and total chassis-up rebuild including all hardware, hydraulics, plumbing, bearings, etc. ASSUME all this and you will be far closer to reality than trying to buy a car that is supposedly "race ready." Remember, your fanny is in this bolide and it is your responsibility to drive a safe car. Only a rebuild can insure this. It is also the best way to become intimately familiar with your new toy. I never sell a car that (1) I won't get into and race, AND (2) I don't recommend a complete rebuild before the new owner gets in it. That goes from the S2 to the F1. It doesn't matter what maintenance I've done, it only works for me, not the prospective buyer.

Also, don't be swayed by that long list of "spares." Most of those spares have come off the car for some reason and are used to jack up the value of the package. I suggest you buy the car by itself, then have the owner make a separate package of the spares. All of a sudden those spares become way less valuable. Unless the spares are in the original box and UNUSED, AND the owner can verify they are actually for that particular car, they aren't worth much. Of course, I don't include things like wings, wheels, etc.

Another method of insuring a fair and equitable transaction is to agree with the owner what a freshly rebuilt engine and gearbox are worth. Then agree that you will pay those prices if the owner will have the engine sent to Charle Williams/Steve Knapp/Jennings/Arnie and the box sent to Craig and then returned from the builder to you. That guarantees you are not saddled with a cracked crankshaft, unusable valve train, units that are specially "modified" by the previous owner (s) in a less than proper way, etc. If the seller won't do that then he's afraid his engine and gearbox are not suitable basic cores for the rebuilds. That should be enough to scare you off.

Pay a fair price for a used race car and enjoy making it your car.

Another caveat: never - NEVER - go in hock to buy a car. If you can not come back from the first turn of the first lap of the first session of the first race with nothing but a steering wheel, then stay away!

[D.T. Benner]

Charles paints a realistic picture but many of you/us will take the low road and learn from the mistakes. As my Crew Chief Larry always points out "You may get Less than you Pay for but seldom More"
My first wife used to say that whatever I thought it would take in time,money and/or labor was probably off by 100 percent!

[Joe911]

Dr Jim is the extreme case and demonstrates that this can happen. This has not been my experience on the two cars I have owned. I did not spend $50K my first year. What is true is that over 10 races I replaced many of the moving parts, fasteners, hoses to get the car the way I WANTED IT. But I - like Dr Jim based on his report, find this one of the pleasures of the sport. I love my time in the garage. MY EARLIER POST DID NOT SAY - YOU CAN RACE THEM THE FIRST YEAR THE WAY YOU BUY THEM. Some of us are luckier than others apparently.

Racing is expensive - unexpected costs will arise every year. You should expect to update/upgrade many parts each year - not just the first year. This is maintanence. Other than damaged engines and gearboxes overhauls - parts for these cars are not terribly expensive relative to many others you could choose to race. Go ask a guy racing a vintage 911! To them even Dr Jims $7.5K engine is cheap. By the way, Dr Jim's engine or trans rebuld is close to the worst-case scenario.

My point is that once you get the car where YOU WANT IT = CF is relatively trouble free if you keep after things. You need a budget and you must stick to it. Unexpected cost occur and you miss a race or two. No big deal.

A concrete operating budget for 7-9 race weekends could run like this:
$1100 usual recurring costs per race
$200 misc (non maintanence) repairs per race
$2000-$4000 engine or trans rebuilds each winter (depends on races each year - some years this could be nothing, I could do 2 years on engine bottom end)
$500-$2500 other misc rebuild costs each winter depending on ambition and level of maintanence over the year.
$650-1500 tires each year.

This assumes you are wrenching.

ENGINE BLOW-UP OR CRASH NOT INCLUDED.

To me this is money well spent.

[stephen wilson]

I agree, when my engine developed a crack in the block, I cancelled the rebuild ($500) and parted it out, then bought a good regional engine for $3500 (thanks Don). Now a National level engine can get very pricey.

[John Merriman]

Last time I talked to Jay Ivey, his engines - equipped with the new SCCA/SCAT cranks (they're cast not forged), the new forged pistons, the light flywheel and properly prepped bores, rods and rings - were going a full fifty hours with no significant drop off in power. The crank itself is seen to have a ten year life - pretty amazing when the OEM cranks were once seen as having a 12 hour life!

These "what does it cost" threads are always interesting....and very informative. While I generally agree with the numbers quoted (and ocassionally staggered), I am often reminded about the way amateur racing used to be - in one sense, anyway - and about where it's gone over the years. When I started out in 1983 - and up through, maybe, the mid'90's - Regional grids always had maybe three, or four or five guys (these were 25 car FF/CF grids) who just raced for the fun of it and weren't looking to set the lap record or win two or three Regionals in a row. They spent perhaps something like a third to half of what the front runners spent annually. They admired the Swifts in the paddock but were plenty happy with their trusty Royale or well-worn Lola. They bought one set of CF spec tires (that was, after all, the intent of the rule!) Their cars were not pristine or perfect but they weren't tatty either. They didn't ship their engine out for a rebuild the minute they saw it was a few HP down on power. Geez, I knew a guy from New Hampshire who hung his 342 from a barn beam by the roll bar every fall after half a dozen race weekends and pulled it down every spring a couple of days before the first race of the seasonat Bryar! These guys had as much fun out there as anyone, didn't get in the way and when they pulled into "Impound All", they were as much part of the FF family as anybody there. Clearly, over time, the "bar was raised", as the saying goes. All the "low budget guys" - I guess that's what they were - are gone. Where? You got me. Maybe they just faded away while, it seems, all of America went upscale and being a front runner became all that mattered.

[Charles Warner]

they were as much part of the FF family as anybody there. Clearly, over time, the "bar was raised", as the saying goes. All the "low budget guys" - I guess that's what they were - are gone. Where? You got me. Maybe they just faded away while, it seems, all of America went upscale and being a front runner became all that mattered.

John,

They did not fade away. They are very active in the vintage/historic arena. There is also a myriad of older atlantics, sports racers and production cars that have found great homes at well run events. Is the racing a tad less aggressive? Yes, thankfully. The venues have become better with some excellent equipment in attendance. Being a front runner is not critical (to most.)

I agree that Club racing is far different than when I started in 1974 - and I don't see it getting any better than it is now.

[Brian]

Budget - I spend what I have, it seems... But I do know a guy - in vintage, to be sure, that has raced the same car, at all sorts of tracks, for the past 15 years that I know of. He came to me a year or two ago and asked me for a recommendation for an engine builder, I gave him a name or two. He asked, what about going through the gearbox, I said sure, what does it need. he said "nothing that I know of, but I guess it should be looked at". It turns out that he had been running the exact same engine, without a rebuild, for as long as he'd owned the car, and he'd never opened up the gearbox - same gears, same dog rings! He just liked driving it,had people to race with, and just wasn't of the mind set to fix something that he didn't think was broken!

So there's more than two sides to some coins!

Brian

[carnut169]

After reading some of these posts I'm feeling like a lot of race cars are worth less than nothing! Heck, the seller should pay the buyer to take it!


People always find a way to accomplish what they really want. If you really want to race, you will & budget will just be something you have to (and will) work out.

[Charles Warner]

After reading some of these posts I'm feeling like a lot of race cars are worth less than nothing!

Unfortunately often true. Race cars are beaten to death by design and function. They are disposable. They do not have an unlimited life. Sure, they can be totally rebuilt but sometimes it's better to get another example as the rebuild costs are way more than the car will ever be worth. I am always amazed at how this hobby (obsession) tempts grown and (supposedly) intelligent individuals to completely ignore the concepts of basic economics.