Elan Zetec Engine [was: 2008 Lineup]

[Liuzzi44]

Sorry to steal this from the eformulacarnews.com forum but i thought it could be interesting if you know anything new, or rumors just copy and edit and repost it. Should be an exciting season!

2008 F2000 Championship Series

ADSA/Wright Racing
Al Guibord Jr. - Confirmed Dec. 22
Al Guibord Sr. - Confirmed Dec. 22
Bob Wright - Confirmed Dec. 22

Andersen Racing
Ricardo Vassmer - Confirmed Jan. 8
Conor Daly - tested (Karting/Skip Barber)
Eric Fagan - tested (Karting)
Keith Spicer - tested (Karting)
Doug Prendeville - rumored

ArmsUp Motorsports
John Dickman - rumored (selected races)
Kirk Kindsfater - rumored (selected races)
Jim Victor - rumored (selected races)
Walter Vollrath - rumored (selected races)

Brian Graham Racing
Kyle Marcelli - yet to be confirmed (Ontario FF1600 champ)

Clawson Racing
Craig Clawson - Confirmed Dec. 22

Dave Freitas Racing
Chuck Hulse - Confirmed Dec. 18 (Selected races)
Robert Podlesni - Confirmed Oct. 18 (Selected races)

Fat Boy Racing
Charles Finelli - Confirmed
Thom Reilly - Confirmed
Len Amato- yet to be confirmed

Flat Four Racing
Chris Camadella - Confirmed Dec 22.

Front Range Motorsports
Zach Craigo - rumored
Russ Lindemann - rumored

Greisiger Motorsports
Doug Kniffin - Confirmed (limited schedule)
Chris Gumprecht - Confirmed
Brendan Puderbach - Confirmed

GTP Motorsports
Paul Farmer - Confirmed Dec. 22
John Levy - Confirmed Dec. 22
Matt McDonough - yet to be confirmed
Thomas Fatur -rumored
Doug Prendeville - rumored

ICP Racing
John LaRue - rumored

JDC MotorSports
No drivers yet rumored

Kevin Firlein Motorsports
Rob Nicholas - Confirmed Jan. 8

Liberty Motor Sports
Brian Belardi - rumored

PMC Racing
Phil Lombardi - rumored

R-Sport
Tim Dunn - yet to be confirmed
Michael Mazziotti - rumored
Jonathan Scarallo - rumored

Richard Morgan Racing
Justin Smith - tested (SCCA Formula Continental)

RMX
Brian Tomasi - rumored

Shaffer Racing
Chas Shaffer - rumored

Ski Motorsports
Tim Minor - rumored

St. Clair Motorsports
Jason Byers - yet to be confirmed
Mark Defer - yet to be confirmed
Bill Jordan - yet to be confirmed
Lewis Cooper Jr. - rumored
Jonathan Scarallo - rumored

Team G.FRO
Thomas Merrill - yet to be confirmed (Selected races)
Jeff Westphal - yet to be confirmed (Selected races)

Team Piper
Brian Novak - Confirmed Jan. 9 (SCCA F500 champ)
Jesse Yorio - Confirmed Jan. 9

VS Racing
Keegan Van Sicklen - Confirmed
Jed Dorsheimer - rumored

Weitzenhof Racing
Dave Weitzenhof - rumored

[Al Guibord]

ADSA/Wright

Bob Wright Confirmed
Al Guibord Jr Confirmed
Al Guibord Sr Confirmed

[John LaRue]

what is the difference between rumored and yet to be confirmed?

[John Robinson II]

THe check

[JScarallo]

"Rumored" is basically that the driver has spoken to that team in a bit of a serious matter regarding next year.

"Yet to be confirmed" is basically that the driver has been signed to that team but the public has not been informed yet with a official press release

Al Craighead please correct me if im wrong.

[Al Craighead]

Hi guys,

Pretty much guys I listed as rumored are one's I've heard have been talking with the team and/or looking at running with them. As for yet to be confirmed, these are guys I believe will be running in the series 2008 with the team, but I have yet to see/been told anything officially.

Cheers,

[Liuzzi44]

Recently eformulacarnews.com has found out some more info so i updated the site, if anyone knows anything more about the drivers for 2008 let us know. eformulacarnews.com also said that Anderson, JDC Motorsports, and GTP were all testing F2000 cars this past monday and tuesday at sebring any times or info on who the drivers were would be appreciated.

Thanks to everyone at eformulacarnews.com for all their hard work!

[Matt M.]

The "factory" car was a couple seconds faster than everybody else at Sebring. But the engine is yet to be approved by anybody on planet earth.

Where is the kid from Aruba? One more year in F2k and he would be ready to win Atlantics...... Maybe he expected to do better overall - but the kid was pretty quick

[Matt M.]

Oh - I forgot to throw this out there.

Designed and developed by the Scion aero dept. taken at the GTP factory floor by secret cuff link camera. Who's going to be the first to show up with one?? You should see the endplates........ Thing will suck your face off

[Dan Andersen]

To clear up some mis-information, Andersen Racing had two cars testing at Sebring this past week, one RF-08 Van Diemen with Elan power and some other updates (wing mods, etc.) driven by F2000 Pro driver Ricardo Vassmer, and one RF-02 with Quicksilver power and standard moustache wings, stock diffuser, etc. driven by a young man from Norway who had never seen Sebring or a car with wings before. Best times were 2:08.6 for Vassmer and 2:08.7 for the Norwegian driver. If one were to draw any conclusions from this test, it would have to be that the Quicksilver might be the stronger engine.

[Dave Hopple]

Recently eformulacarnews.com has found out some more info so i updated the site, if anyone knows anything more about the drivers for 2008 let us know. eformulacarnews.com also said that Anderson, JDC Motorsports, and GTP were all testing F2000 cars this past monday and tuesday at sebring any times or info on who the drivers were would be appreciated.

Thanks to everyone at eformulacarnews.com for all their hard work!

Well, I'm not really impressed with Craigheads investigative skills so far... We (JDC) have been testing a bunch of drivers in the Pro Mazdas/Zetecs and most of them are not on his lists. So I guess I'll have to do his job for him

We tested Chris Miller at Sebring last week (our first time out with the new Hoosiers). Chris is the son of former USF2000 driver John Miller and we are planning to run two cars in the F2000 pro series with Chris and a teamate, hopefully soon a "driver to be named later".

-Dave

P.S. Matt, I like the composite wings.

[Cole Morgan]

Dan,
Can you reveal the mystery man from Norway? First time at Sebring and already posting 2.08.7 isn't easy. If he chooses to run F2000 looks like he will be the man to beat.

[Dan Andersen]

He is not related to me, though I am 100% Norwegian. Stay tuned, I hope to be making the announcement soon.

[Al Craighead]

Hey Hopple,

Where have you been? I thought you were one of my inside sources and I haven't heard a word from you As for Chris, I knew about him, but have been holding off releasing his name as per a request. Actually got a few more of those, that should be posted/announced shortly. Man this is looking like a great field this year. Looking forward to be at all the races covering the action.

Cheers,

[ccambern]

The "factory" car was a couple seconds faster than everybody else at Sebring. But the engine is yet to be approved by anybody on planet earth.

I don't know about times but...

I just heard from a reliable source that the Elan Zetec uses a different intake manifold than the QS. I'm kinda OK with more than one builder sealing these things, but different parts? That doesn't sound like it's keeping with the spirit of the Zetec formula.

Sometimes seems like I'm the last to know about this kind of thing, but I thought I'd throw it out there, in case one or two other people haven't heard.

I'm typing my letter to the CRB tonight.

-Clark

[KevinFirlein]

Heard about this early last fall. Pro series seems to be on top of it ( not allowing it) but I would suggest that everyone in FC send an email to the SCCA CRB to stop this motor from being allowed.

[Matt M.]

Oppp here we go!



Jeeezzz Clark - I wasn't trying to cause any trouble.......... I was just thinking it had a good driver !!


We all could make a better mouse trap - The intake does not sound like parity will be achieved.... Make the same runners - cast - FI and Butterflies in the same spot....... Then set them free.

[Jnovak]

The Elan manifold is very different from the Zetec manifold with the butterflys & injectors in different positions. I am also sending my letter to the CRB. If you want to protect your engine investment it would be a good idea to get involved.

[lil_fatboy]

Dan and Mike, Let's forget about spending all this money on a new intake manifold. Let's open a high priced ITALIAN RESTAURANT in sayville. Better yet a kielbasa stand by the ferry!!!!!

[fredvs]

Geez - after all these good ideas Keegan and I have finally found the missing link in our new intake. We're off to the garage with blueprints and a megathermos of coffee - figure we can capture at least 40 more stallions by the time we are done. Onto the dyno by the weekend: our mechanical engineer is going to be paid overtime for work well done - we'll let you know our numbers by Monday....don't worry, it will all be properly "sealed".

[HazelNut]

Dan and Mike, Let's forget about spending all this money on a new intake manifold. Let's open a high priced ITALIAN RESTAURANT in sayville. Better yet a kielbasa stand by the ferry!!!!!

will your wait staff be wearing black dickies?

[jonbaytos]

Before anybody sends a letter to the CRB,would it not be wise to learn the mistakes and events that brought you to this point? If not ,it seems that you will blame someone later for your own lack of vision for what may happen in the future.
Why are Elan at fault? Why is it the CRB's problem?
Who says that Dan has spent any money? I can tell you for sure that Mike would'nt.To me they seized an oppurtunity when it presented itself.It would not take a lot a lot to improve a manifold that we never had any intention of having to compete in an R&D mission. You had better look to find out why the Elan manifold is there.I have not seen any facts that it is better anyhow. Nicer looking?yes easy to work on?yes lighter?for sure.But how did it come to be? You don't have to look far for the answer.
Be sure of where to point the gun before firing.There was a fullproof system in place for over 6 years and you chose as group to alter it.You were warned,but all involved chose to ignore it confident that you knew better.
What is the problem?you wanted an open formula,well I would say that this just one of the by products of what you desired.Why all the crying? Pintos come in many different sizes especially what's on the horizon.
What's the difference between a alloy pinto and a steel one,or better yet a Zetec from Elan with a new manifold,or a QS or Elite or a Roush Yates.
I thought that doing away with the 8'" and 10" was the only parity issue left to solve? It seems that you are traveling from one problem to many more.
What is the arguement with a new manifold that at the moment does all of the above but is slower? What's the difference between and Elite and QS?
At today's count there are 4 new front wings on the way for a VD,new lighter wheels,a new differential,new shox at 10,500 for 4,2 diffussers,1 new set of calipers,1 set of new pods complete with flickers and 3 new chassis.If you need even half of it let's say it's 10,000?In the whole scheme of what you laid out what's a little old manifold to worry about.You have parity.

[KevinFirlein]

Oh, please. This entire manifold issue is simply about a pissing match. Nothing more, nothing less. Outfit A needed a part that outfit B sells. B didnt want to sell to A since A was going to change the product specs for use in a different arena. Later outfit B decided it needed a part that outfit A was the sole supplier of. They found out that, and here is a shocker, that the 'favor' was being returned in kind. Allegedly

Anyone can build a zetec engine for club racing in their living room if they want to. It has to be built to certain specs, one of which is various intake parts must be those which are listed as QSRE parts. If you want to run that engine in the Eastern based pro series it has to be sealed by Elite or QSRE. You know full well that the intake parts in question were never intended to be optimum.

Shame of things here is that SCCA is easily bullied into rule changes and most pro series rarely ever take a public stance on any issues.

[jonbaytos]

Kevin,what is the pissing match that you refer to?

[lil_fatboy]

will your wait staff be wearing black dickies?

Hey, "everyone must wear black pants, I like black dickies" Where's Maschinot. has anybody seen my Maschinot!!!!!!!!!!

[ccambern]

Why exactly do we need a new manifold? I don't think I've ever heard someone say, "Man, I wish this Quicksilver manifold was lighter and sexier!" What is the benefit to the class?

For what it's worth, I don't think the SCCA should allow un-sealed Zetecs, and I'm glad that the pro series does not. In fact, I think that allowing more than one builder to seal these things is taking a risk. To really do it right, you probably need an independent third party to certify the engine before it's sealed.

The real problem with this whole thing is that it leads to a competition between two different Zetec formulas. Elan and QS want to sell engines, and if they're in competition, there is a strong motivation to find more HP, which can only lead more expensive rebuilds, protests, etc. Anyone know the price of a Sunbelt SM engine? Ever watched tech after one of their races? That's where we're headed.

As to the question of spec wheels, wings, etc- I guess you have to pick your poison. I hate spec classes because, like many people in FC, I like to tinker. However, I also hate endless, expensive motor re-builds. I hate spending hours in tech after the race, knowing that I have pay my builder to put the thing back together. I hate wondering if the other guy has more power than I do.

If you have the latest wheels, or wings, or whatever, I can tell. With the partial exception of shocks and diffs, most chassis bits are transparent. Some are expensive, but many can be replicated with a little ingenuity. But if you have 8 extra HP, I won't be able to walk over to your car and see it. And there's very little I can do to make up that kind of disadvantage on the track. Like it or not, there is no substitute for HP.

-Clark

[Douglas Kniffin]

I think this is all great for the sport! What could be better than an open class with factory teams to encourage competition. Your can spend lots and lots of money on 3 different engine builders, shock packages, aero packages, a meaningless test ban, its all great for parity and competition. Either way, the idea of spending more and more money is really exciting to me! You guys should all stop belly aching and just start spending and then you won't feel so left out.

[lil_fatboy]

I think this is all great for the sport! What could be better than an open class with factory teams to encourage competition. Your can spend lots and lots of money on 3 different engine builders, shock packages, aero packages, a meaningless test ban, its all great for parity and competition. Either way, the idea of spending more and more money is really exciting to me! You guys should all stop belly aching and just start spending and then you won't feel so left out.

ALL this from the man who brought us Brendon Puderbach. It's because of you we are now stuck with him and you are retired. You should have left him at the country club with taste like dave. You had a nice car too.

[Matt M.]

I'll show you mine if you show me yours...

[Douglas Kniffin]

Brendan has been a breath of fresh air which this sport needed badly!

[Dan Andersen]

Since our team has some involvement in this hotly debated issue, I think it might help to explain some things. Jon Baytos, in his post, alluded to some of the reasons why Elan has constructed a different intake system, but for those who don't know the history, Here it is. Apparently Elan attempted to purchase those proprietary componenets from Quicksilver, which according to the GCR they should have been able to do, and Quicksilver, for whatever reason, refused to sell them. Elan then went to the SCCA and asked for assistance in getting the components, and SCCA called Quicksilver, and Quicksilver again refused to sell them. SCCA then informed Elan that they could design and build an alternative intake system since they were being prevented from acquiring the QSRE components. Elan has now done so, at some expense, and has submitted the comparative dyno test data to confirm that the engines deliver equal torque and HP.
Andersen Racing has a prototype Elan engine and we have tested it alongside a fresh Quicksilver. The stopwatch times indicate parity, though the engines do not perform exactly the same (nor do any two zetec engines). At this point, to bhe honest, we are actually wondering if the Elan is a bit off in power, based on data we have. In any event, you are not looking at something that is going to change the world of F2000, and even if somehow it did show a slight performance benefit, the alternative components would be available for purchase to anyone who thinks it is a way they want to go. As Jon correctly pointed out, this is a formula, not a spec deal, and people spend way more on diffusers, nose/wing setups and shocks without all the hand wringing and anxiety. And as has been pointed out, you currently have a situation in club racing where engines do not have to be sealed, and in Pro where there are two competitive engine builders who can each seal their own units. Adding a third builder is not going to upset things any more than they already are.
Finally, I would like to point out that the many variations and alternatives that can and are being used by competitiors in both club and Pro do not amount to much difference in speed, in my view. Andersen Racing last season entered five cars in the Pro series, and all of our cars utilized the stock "moustache" nose/wing assembly, the stock diffuser, and the standard rear wing package. We ran the "exotic" four-way Penske's on some cars, and basic three-ways on others, and found little if any difference. For 2008, we may actually go back to the stock Dynamics. Bottom line, this is still a class where the biggest difference is the driver, and more time can be found tuning that component than any other. At the end of the day, it isn't going to be intakes, shocks, diffusers or any other jazzy stuff that makes the difference, it will be the best drivers running at the front, period.
Hope this helps.
Dan

[Douglas Kniffin]

I'm confused....if it isn't about all those wizzy bits adding performance advantages gained by using them in the right combination, then why aren't you promoting a move to a spec series where there is no need for spending money on parts which you don't think do much of anything?

[QS]

[quote=Dan Andersen;161899]SCCA called Quicksilver, and Quicksilver again refused to sell them.

Not true

[HazelNut]

Brendan has been a breath of fresh air which this sport needed badly!

damn skippy brother!

[Dan Andersen]

I'm confused....if it isn't about all those wizzy bits adding performance advantages gained by using them in the right combination, then why aren't you promoting a move to a spec series where there is no need for spending money on parts which you don't think do much of anything?

The formula is interesting because the various options allow a team to make the car "happy" for a particular driver, but you are right, a "spec" series would not be awful. When "spec" series restricts springs, gears, etc., in my view it has gone too far, but I can see the need for restrictions on some levels of racing.

[Dan Andersen]

[quote=QS;161909]

SCCA called Quicksilver, and Quicksilver again refused to sell them.

Not true

Sorry if I am incorrect in that Sandy, that's just what I have been led to believe.

[S Lathrop]

For the Elan engine to be approved, there is an established proceedure. Why is that procedure not being followed now? Did Elan submit a proposal to the Competition Board? Did the Competition Board publish Elan"s request as a rules proposal?

Has somebody at SCCA given the go ahead to Elan and assured them that all will be made right? Where was the Competition Board and the BOG is this fracus? Where is the membership input into this question. I did not see anything about this "new " FC engine in FastTrack. Has some employee of SCCA overstepped his authority?

Under the most favorable circumstances, the Elan engine should not be eligable to race until 2009.

Has Formula Continental finally been remade in the image of SCCA production car racing at its best?

[fredvs]

I guess the ONLY question is will the F2000 series allow it?

[DaveW]

Letter I sent to the CRB, etc., at SCCA:

Zetec Engine Letter – Specifically Addressing the Elan Intake / Engine Proposal

It has come to my attention that an “alternative” intake manifold and injector system has been constructed by Elan Power and has been presented to the SCCA for consideration for use on the Zetec engine in the Formula Continental Class. For the reasons that follow, I strenuously object to the inclusion of this new “alternative” intake and injector unit:

1) There is not a shortage or issue with respect to the supply of intake manifolds and injector systems from Quicksilver RacEngines.

2) To my knowledge the cost of the intake and injector system has not increased in any significant amount since the inclusion of the Zetec engine in Formula Continental.

3) The proposed intake manifold and injector system produced by Elan differs significantly in design and manufacture from the already approved Quicksilver system and will undoubtedly perform differently, requiring much testing and dyno time to TRY to make this unit equivalent to the present, proven set-up.

4) There exist enough issues (Pinto engine changes such as the aluminum head, new pistons, etc.) with respect to the equalization of the Pinto and Zetec such that the FC class would be harmed by the introduction of another variable at this time.

5) In addition, one of the main premises for (and benefits of) inclusion of the Zetec engine into the FC rules was that it would be a durable, standard, almost spec, engine, resulting in a significant reduction of engine costs and engine variability (dreaded engine of the week syndrome). This has already convinced many competitors to convert to Zetec, including me. If any totally untested and unproven variables, such as the Elan intake, are allowed, this will go against one of the basic reasons that the Zetec was thought by the FC competitors to be a good idea in FC. It would, in all probability, result in a significant number of budget-restricted competitors, such as me, deciding not to run FC at all.

Therefore, to keep a relatively-level playing field for all, regardless of budget constraints, such engine variables as this MUST NOT BE ALLOWED!

[Phil Picard]

Thank you Matt for starting it off

I wrote my letter.