Citation F1000 update

[Wren]

removed

[RussMcB]

Beautiful work!

I look forward to seeing you this weekend, and your car at the track in 2008.

[rcrockett69]

The quality of finish looks great. Did you complete all of the machine work yourself?

[Purple Frog]

And please tell us with enough lead time which major metropolitan Art Museum at which this fine piece of work is going to be unveiled.

[Brandon Dixon]

The unveiling should happen at a racetrack near you in early 2008. I'd like to make the January nationals in Florida, I'm not sure whether we will make it, but we WILL be on the track in the early part of 2008.

We are doing all of the machine work in my backyard shop. It is and has been an enormous mountain of work...

I'm looking forward to visiting with everyone at the ARRC. But I'm not a real good spectator, so I'm only going to come over for Friday. That leaves me the rest of the weekend to make parts. Anybody got an extra crew slot for Wren and me?

[Wren]

The quality of finish looks great. Did you complete all of the machine work yourself?

like Brandon said, the machine work has been finished in his backyard shop. The majority of the work has been mill work that he has done on his vertical machining center.


I have taken care of the majority of the round parts on my turning center that Brandon has graciously allowed me to put in his shop as well.



This has really given a lot of control over the parts that go into the car and has allowed the design and build of the car complete integration. There is no need to go back to the machinist with small changes, we can just take care of them ourselves, it also doesn't leave us at the mercy of others to get the parts we need. The freedom to experiment has been invaluable. It has also given us good control over materials since we have a good relationship with our metal supplier.

Here are some gratuitous in-progress photos of different parts.

after this back to the mill for all of the front and side features.

[VehDyn]

Backyard machine shop? What the hell? That is so cool.

We have a backyard wind tunnel here at the office. Two of the buildings are pretty close and when we get storms down here in Southeast Texas, it can get mighty blustery in the middle. Similar, but not quite the same.

The parts looks great.

Ken

[RobLav]

My car is again making progress thanks to Brandon and Steve. Just painted the body panels yesterday before the cold sets in - a deep rich maroon - an old Porsche 911 color from the late 60's. I'll post pics after letting the paint completely cure in a couple days.

[carnut169]

The car looks fantastic Rob.

Why didn't you use the stock Citation uprights?

[jerry freeman]

I want to upgrade to better stuff in the future. What is the cost of complete uprights and what wheels will they accept. The parts look great. What are the chances of a guy from Huntsville, AL coming down to see the stuff in person one cold day this winter? I hope to meet you at the ARRC friday if I make friday. It might be saturday before I get there. Not sure yet.

Jerry

[Wren]

I want to upgrade to better stuff in the future. What is the cost of complete uprights and what wheels will they accept. The parts look great. What are the chances of a guy from Huntsville, AL coming down to see the stuff in person one cold day this winter? I hope to meet you at the ARRC friday if I make friday. It might be saturday before I get there. Not sure yet.

Jerry

I actually live in Huntsville now, I'm sure that i could meet up with you sometime to show you some parts. Honestly, I have no idea what the parts cost, but it is inline with other cars. We would like to offer them to other home builders for their own xSR/formula projects, but we have already sold out the first run to new and old citation owners and the next run may be a few months out.

Please come find us at the ARRC, we'll be wandering around in Citation Formula Car shirts, you shouldn't miss us.

The current parts fit Van Diemen wheels(drive pin spacing and diameter), but since we make our own drive pins, we could probably run off some drivepins that would fit swift wheels since I understand that those use the same spacing.

edit- you or anyone else is of course welcome to swing by the shop in Tuscaloosa to just have a look around as well.

[Brandon Dixon]

The car looks fantastic Rob.

Why didn't you use the stock Citation uprights?

I'm not sure that I understand your question Sean. If you are asking Rob Laverty, I sent him a set of front and rear uprights, just like the picture above.

If you are asking me about the uprights, these are the current "stock" citation uprights. I spent a fair bit of time changing the brake caliper mounting to use a 4 piston aluminum caliper, while still being able to use the ICP radial mount LD-20 for all of the FF and FC cars. I also modified the design to not be "handed", 1 universal part is better than having to make and keep track of lefts and rights. I've sent a couple of the rear uprights to the FF guys. There weren't any sitting "on the shelf".

The front upright is a modification of the uprights that are on John LaRue's car. Steve Lathrop suggested that the bearings that are in the previous design were getting hard to find in sufficent quality, so I changed the desigh to use two bearings similar to the design of the rear upright. I'm working on a steering clevis that will adapt the current upright to all of the earlier cars.

Brandon

[Brandon Dixon]

I want to upgrade to better stuff in the future. What is the cost of complete uprights and what wheels will they accept. The parts look great. What are the chances of a guy from Huntsville, AL coming down to see the stuff in person one cold day this winter? I hope to meet you at the ARRC friday if I make friday. It might be saturday before I get there. Not sure yet.

Jerry

You or anyone else on this forum are welcome to come by the shop anytime! I'm out there almost every weekend and most evenings.

We haven't decided the cost of a complete upright yet, since I don't know what they are costing me to make them ... I have sold the front "empty" upright for $400 and the rear for $750. I hope that price is in line. They are not simple parts. One of the justifications for my machine tool upgrade last winter was the qutes that I got back for these parts. It was getting close to double that even if I was buying 15 at a time...

Brandon

[RobLav]

Sean - the pictured car is not mine. That's the one at ICP. I do have most of the parts pictured here.

I think my car is still going Yamaha... Maybe run it two years and see what engine comes up next.

My progress has been on the chassis and body. Not sure where Tom Schweitz is with his car, but mine is much further along than Brandon's. He's been spending all his time making things for everybody else.

[S Lathrop]

I want to follow up on what Brandon has said about parts availability.

I have intended that the FC and FB projects are about selling parts to any one and every one. There are no parts that will be exclusive to the Citation. If you guys see something you want to use, call and we will be very happy to make you a deal.

I have done a variant of the front uprights for Zink Z10, that saves 20 lbs unsprung weight. That really makes a big difference in the persistant push that the Z10 has.

I am especially interested in selling the rear drive assembly complete. At some time I would like to offer the rear end with control arms to use VD Rear uprights. The rear drive will be supplied with our Variloc differentials, but you can use the Taylor unit. I will let some one else do the rear engine frame who is more familar with the VD frames.

I have had inquires about the legal composite rear wings we developed this year for DW and LaRue to use at Topeka. I will be making those available as soon as my suppliers and I work out a cost structure.

[RobLav]

Here's the new paint color. I already owned the paint... trying to keep costs low.

[RussMcB]

Wow. Looking great. The variety and quality of cars in this class is awesome. Can't wait to see it all together and racing.

[RobLav]

Here's a few pics of my Yamaha install. Lots of Tiging - been busy...

Front crushbox and front wing are done. 7 out of 8 A-Arms done.

[stonebridge20]

Rob, nice fit on that oil tank. The car looks fantastic!

Mike

[RussMcB]

Beautiful.

[Brands]

Looks great. Bet you can't wait to run it! It will be well worth it.

[RussMcB]

Any updates? Making steady progress?

[Jnovak]

Wow, the new Citation is an absolute work of art. This has to be the 1st 1 Million $ F1000 car, counting labor of course. Great job guys!

Thanks for sharing your pics. ... Jay Novak

[Brandon Dixon]

Any updates? Making steady progress?

Steady? Depends on how you define steady... Lately the day job and the 2 year old have slowed progress, but there is still forward progress.

Wow, the new Citation is an absolute work of art. This has to be the 1st 1 Million $ F1000 car, counting labor of course. Great job guys!

Thanks for sharing your pics. ... Jay Novak

There clearly is going to be some labor involved with putting one of these together, but I don't think that the car will we any more expensive than most other new F1000 cars.

OK, here is the latest status pic, and I'll post some detail shots as well.

Brandon

[Brandon Dixon]

Nick Fuhs, did the exhaust system fabrication. I'm very pleased.

Here are some detail shots.

We made some exhaust rings out of 304 stainless that locate and attach the header just as the stock Suzuki pieces do. We reused the Suzuki flange. We made several extra rings, so if anyone is interested in getting some, just let me know. We machined a step to locate 1.5" od 0.049" wall tubing. The head side has a smooth transition to 1.4" id.

[RussMcB]

Wow. That looks fantastic.

Will you be able to get the clutch cover off with the engine in the car? I've found that access to be pretty important.

I know work and 2 year olds can suck up most of your time, so I hesitate to ask this, but, will we see the car at the ARRC?

[Brandon Dixon]

I've got the firewall and interior panels completed and ready to mount.

I like the way that shoulder belt attachment worked out. We'll get a loop sewn into the end of the shoulder belts. No slots or other holes in the firewall.

[Brandon Dixon]

Here is the completed front bar. Just needs black oxide.

The rads are alomost complete. The rest of the water plumbing, swirl pot etc are next on my list. Then rear wing mount/attenuator. Then mount the nose, build the crush box. Then the wings.

The list is getting shorter.

[Brandon Dixon]

Wow. That looks fantastic.

Will you be able to get the clutch cover off with the engine in the car? I've found that access to be pretty important.

I know work and 2 year olds can suck up most of your time, so I hesitate to ask this, but, will we see the car at the ARRC?

That was a fast reply Russ. Thanks for the compliments. By the way, anybody that is in the vicinity is always welcome to come by and offer words of encouragement...


The engine side frames are fairly easy to remove with the engine in the car. The car will still remain a "roller", just not a very stiff one.


I'm not giving up on the ARRC yet, but there is a LOT still to do.

Brandon

[Wren]

Wow, the new Citation is an absolute work of art. This has to be the 1st 1 Million $ F1000 car, counting labor of course. Great job guys!

Thanks for sharing your pics. ... Jay Novak

If Brandon and I charged labor rates that were more than a 10 year old in China makes, it might be. Making money has never been the focus, making the best car we possibly can has always been the focus. I think I would be lucky to make back what I've spent on gas driving to the shop. The experience of learning from everyone else has been the real payback for me.

But, prices are very much in line with what others are charging, maybe cheaper. There has been a reasonable amount of interest in the FB and the zetec car.

I think there is hope of making the ARRC, at least I hope so. We'll see.

[Lee Stohr]

Beautiful work ! hurry up and finish or you'll be re-engineering everything for a newer engine

Where's the oil cooling ?

[Brandon Dixon]

I have a Setrab 925 Oil Cooler in the RH Sidepod in front of the radiator. It's the biggest thing that I could fit in there. The RH rad is a single row and the LH Rad is a double row.

[Sean Maisey]

Brandon,

That is not a race car, it is more like jewelry. Truely raises the bar on the class. I hope to see you out at the track soon.

Sean

P.S. I am running a similar radiator and oil cooler setup now. Hoping to test it at Summit next weekend. I will let you (and the F1000 community know how it works).

[Lee Stohr]

I hope your dry sump helps lower oil temps, if not

[carnut169]

I have a Setrab 925 Oil Cooler in the RH Sidepod in front of the radiator. It's the biggest thing that I could fit in there. The RH rad is a single row and the LH Rad is a double row.

Think more about this.

My 04 engine used two regular VD radiators with a tiny oil cooler in front of one of them, no problems. The 07 got 2 new C&R radiators and a new Setrab in front of one of them... water temps were out of control high. In fact, the new owner was installing a new motor after not checking temps, running a full test secession and comming in with 300' water.

We messed around with radiator openings all weekend but I fear the Setrab was somehow blocking/ heating the water. Don't really know.

[RussMcB]

<snip> My 04 engine used two regular VD radiators with a tiny oil cooler in front of one of them, no problems. <snip>

No kidding? :-).

I thought I remembered differently (but I suffer from CRS ...).

[carnut169]

No kidding? :-).

I thought I remembered differently (but I suffer from CRS ...).

Well it was also dry-sumped, and it did blow up, but after 1+ years of use.

[Wren]

We messed around with radiator openings all weekend but I fear the Setrab was somehow blocking/ heating the water. Don't really know.

Did the water go through the radiator near the oil cooler first and then the other one?

[carnut169]

No, just the opposite.

[Wren]

No, just the opposite.

This setup passes through the radiator(single row) near the oil cooler and then to the double row radiator on the other side. There is a lot of surface area shoved into FC sized sidepods.