It appears as though there is some lattitude regarding the ability (or lack thereof) to see the corner stations( yellow flags in this case) at the runoffs. I understand the sun was in drivers eyes. This cannot be the first time this has happened to any driver at the runnoffs or anywhere else for that matter.
Considering the big pile up at turn 11 in FC qualifying, there were two cars initially involved. Then cars started plowing into them with subsequent sour results.
Was any driver asessed any penalty points for failure to acknowledge
the flags?
If so why, if not, why not?
I don't care about blame, I just care about fair application of rules.
From what I read about the incident in the FC qualification here on Apex Speed it makes me wonder if any one suffered any penalties other than sore wallets. It all makes me wonder!
As far as I know, no penalties were even hinted at. The flags could be seen (Weizenhof saw them - barely in time), but as that corner is blind anyway, with cars following each other fairly closely there really wasn't much, if any, time for the first couple of guys to even react. Most likely the flags were just starting to be waved when Frog and Tomassi came on the scene.
Hopefully the club will realise that there is a problem when the sun is that low and somehow move the flaggers up a little bit. That may not be possible, however, because of either track contractural mandates, or the layout of the real estate.
I've often wondered why a track cant rig up a yellow light system downtrack from a blind or hard to see stations that could be controlled by the station itself. Maybe it could be a portable which could be carried by the region in their truck along with the flags radios etc. in which case the track would have no expense.
Captain Eddie
Yep, Summit Point has a big, yellow light. Unfortunately, many people don't notice the light. At least with a flag the corner can wave it to hopefully get your attention. I'm generally not an advocate of radio comm with drivers, but a yellow flag is an exception.
Most oval tracks have on board caution lights in the cars. Pretty simple to implement. SCCA can go nuts over a fuel sample port, but managing a caution system is left crossing ones fingers the drivers notice a flag.
Is there ANY logical reason why we still use flags in this century? With all the safety updates to tracks these days there's no excuse in my book for not having a comprehensive of lights [not just one yellow light] all round the track.
One reason comes to mind. As Larry points out, you can wave a flag, and a good worker can communicate much more than just a color with a wave or a shake of a flag. You really can't do that with a light.
As one who has flagged Summit Point, I can tell you that many (most?) drivers don't see the lights at the bridge, unless it's after dark.
I second the point made above about communicating more with a flag. Sometimes, the flagger will be waving the yellow; sometimes s/he will be WAVING the yellow.
Yea, yellow lights are fine in some circumstances, but not all. One has to remember that the driver is concentrating on where he is going, NOT what is sitting stationary somewhere out of his trajectory line. For that reason, drivers will often miss stationary yellows, whereas they will rarely miss one that is being waved rather franticly! Yellow lights need to be big and blinking fast to really do the job they are intended for.
I have experienced turn 11 on many occasions where the sun is so blinding that some drivers have completely missed the turn in. From about 8:00-8:30am the sun makes this corner very very difficult to navigate up to the apex. The turn station is to the right of the apex which makes it ineffective through this time period. I doubt if flashing lights would even correct this situation. The only corse of action that may correct this, would be something like a billboard placed in the proper location. Until then make sure your visor is clean, not pitted, and shaded down low.
Sorry but I think you're stuck in 'that's the way it is' mode.
Don't just think about existing lights you might seen. Ever seen aircraft lights? - they're not big. Ever been to NY? - seen their stop lights? - the ones with a narrow band of flashing white LEDs across the middle?
There are so many alternatives I have to believe there are many better solutions than what we have today. Sure you'll still need corner workers and his 'antics' can be a useful extra communication - but the ability to signal track conditions to drivers needs urgent attention.
You're absolutely right. I'm sure if someone suggested a billboard / sunshade to the track management, they'd be delighted to gain a few hundred square feet of signage! Talk about a solution that would pay for itself!
There should be no discussion about this at all. You have those supposedly backwards Dirt car drivers and oval tracks that road racers look down upon. Yet these guys have enough sense to use A) Track Lights, B) Flags and C) an on-board light. Yet raod racers explain why this system is not good or would not work? If I am sideways parked, I would sure like they guy to have an ON_BOARD light, so if he passed the on track light or flag, he/she would still get the message.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that the oval track racers that use the
on board lights typically go "full course yellow" when an incident happens.
The SCCA typically uses just one corner yellows - won't that make an on board
system harder to design? Not saying that it won't work, but it does seem
more difficult to me.
...as someone finally observed, on-board light systems will only work for full-course cautions. We do not currently possess the technology to have a local incident trigger an on-board yellow then disengage when the driver leaves the incident area.
Bright lights on the corner stations: Sure, bring -em on. However...they can't be SO bright as to dazzle the drivers.
Turn 11 at Mid-O. A tough spot. No room at the exit, and the sun peaking over the treetops in the morning makes it hard to see anything but the gearbox of the car in front of you.
I believe that since it is common knowledge that the sun causes blindness in certain turns during some times of the day when an incident occurs in these corners (and cars are stopped in the racing line) you go full-course red...
Mike would still have hit Cole, but perhaps the incident would have been limited to the three cars with minor damage instead of 7 with one driver going to the hospital.
If I may add a bit to this...There is nothing wrong with using flags on a road course; in fact it may be better than lights in the case of local yellows so common to the road courses.
As a driver I am keenly aware of both the flag and the body language of the person waving it: If the flagger is jumping up and down and frantically waving I will generally take that to mean the racing line is blocked and there is something big ahead of me. If the flag is being waved but lazily, I will usually interpret that to mean there is a car on the track, but probably off line. I know this is maybe not how we are supposed to react, but it is the reality in most circumstances. (a stationary yellow being wildly shaken at me also tells me there is something pretty major occuring even though its not on the track).
The flag in turn 11 Wednesday morning was being lazily waved when I came through. There was nobody signalling me to slow down or move to the right. I might add that we were all pretty much blinded by the sun at the entrance to the turn, but I could readily see the flag station. I still don't know how I missed everything. I would guess almost everybody was on a flier that lap and it's a wonder that there wasn't a 9 or 10 car pile up.
I have experienced turn 11 on many occasions where the sun is so blinding that some drivers have completely missed the turn in. From about 8:00-8:30am the sun makes this corner very very difficult to navigate up to the apex. The turn station is to the right of the apex which makes it ineffective through this time period. I doubt if flashing lights would even correct this situation. The only corse of action that may correct this, would be [SIZE=1]something like a billboard [/SIZE] placed in the proper location. Until then make sure your visor is clean, not pitted, and shaded down low.
Jason
I agree completely - I was driving blindly into that corner using a shiny, reflective patch on the road (THE ONLY THING I COULD SEE) for my turn-in marker. It was like driving into a tunnel with a spotlight aimed directly into my eyes! The sun at 8-8:20 AM was level with the track and aimed directly down the short straight between turns 10 and 11. I NEVER SAW THE FLAGS OR THE CARNAGE UNTIL I TURNED IN! I was just lucky to be able to stop in time, and to not get hit while I was restarting the engine to get out of there!
BTW, there was NO yellow flag at the previous flag station when I went by! If there would have been, maybe some of the carnage could have been avoided. At least we would have had a clue to look for something ahead.
___
Dave Weitzenhof
Last edited by DaveW; September 27th, 2005 at 12:43 PM.
Dave and Bob both have it right. With the sun where it was and with the track blocked the yellows have to be thrown even before the corner station for 11. I am very critical of the lazy wave of the yellow at 11.
Good luck getting something sensible like a light system in the cars (drivers expense). It took the SCCA 10 years longer to put a transponder in the cars, than it did in R/C car racing, and karting. It will fall on the deaf ears of the SCCA.
ean,
What I meant by affecting a pass was that if say if there was a yellow at 11, which is a bad spot, going yellow at 10 would possibly stop somebody from making a pass between 10 and 11. If I saw a worker waving a yellow at 10 and a yellow at 11, I would most certainly slow way down, knowing that 11 is blind.
From what I gather the main cause of a 2 car pile becoming the mess that it did was that there simply was not sufficient warning given to respond due to the poor visibility from the sun and the blindness of the corner.
By going yellow at satation 10, there would have been much more time to respond.
By going yellow at satation 10, there would have been much more time to respond.
[size=2]T10 is usually an "Automatic Backup" station, which means T10 should display a Standing Yellow when they see a Waving Yellow at T11. Key word here is "see", normally the Yellow flagger (watching downstream), is focused on the cars. A flagger at T10 has the same sun to look into and may have to look "thru/around" obstacles at the fence (such as people, EV, etc.), to "see" the T11 flagger. After seeing a Waved yellow at T11, the T10 flagger's reaction time has to be considered. Then take into consideration that cars just getting to T10 at the same time the T10 flagger displays the flag (too late to be seen ?), drive a fair distance to the T11 flagger.[/size]
[size=2]IMHO this would have been a great time for a Red Flag, however such a call COULD NOT have come from Control and been executed quickly enough to keep the "additional" cars in the incident from becoming involved. It ALL happened VERY quickly.[/size]
Maybe this is naive on my part, but it would seem that the turns that are effected by the sun are "known" and therefore it is possible to modify the schedule to avoid a driver having to drive blind into a corner. This occurs at almost every track either early or late in the year. Early morning or late in the day sessions where the sun is "on the track's" line of sight are a major problem and a light on the dash will not help me if I'm doing all I can to see the track and not looking down at the dash. A spotter with a radio connection would. Someone yelling in my ear is one cure for a "blind corner". The simplest solution is to modify the schedule to reflect the shorter daylight hours.
My two cents.
dave jalen
i'm not one for shamless plugs - but this since this concerns safety i guess its worth it.
concerning the sun-blinding of t11 - it wasn't really an issue for me. i use the Velocity Visor from Axcel Fast Graphics in CA. i've been talking to Alex and he says the glare reduction is very good with his visor. i was 3 car lengths behind pritchard and tomasi as the whole thing unfolded on wednesday, and was able to see the yellow flag (at the last minute - and i think it just came out as i got there). i was also able to see the cars stopped at the outside of the track - where the glare is worst.
i think Alex makes the visor for most helmets - and i wouldn't use anything else. i've tried the cara-coat visors and think the optics are bad, and get annoyed with the poor tint on the peripheral area. i've run mid-ohio a bunch now between 8am and 9am, and have never had the much discussed blinding in 8 and 11.
The simplest solution for T11 really is a billboard.
Or... how about this? Two tall flagpoles. Pull some cheap screen up just for those few sunny morning hours that it is an issue. Leave it down the rest of the time. Low tech.
Yellow Flag
