Research: Big Men in SCCA Formula Cars

[problemchild]

Please note: I am not shopping to purchase race cars.

I am doing some research to see how larger men fit into the SCCA formula classes, particularily the cars with reasonable production numbers.

I am asking two questions and gathering any additional driver size comments about each class.
Question 1. Will the class allow overweight "fat-build" drivers (6"- 250lbs) to race safely and competitively?
Question 2. Will the class allow large "athletic-build" drivers (6'5"- 215lbs) to race safely and competitively?

The term "safely" refers to that size driver being able to fit comfortably in the car without compromise. The term "competitively" refers to that size driver being able to make the minimum weight limit (or almost) without compromise.

I am specifically asking these questions of:
SCCA FC (post-2000 Van Deimen)
SCCA FF (post-2000 Van deimen)
SCCA Spec-Racer
SCCA spec-Miata
SCCA Formula Zetec (Van Deimen)
SCCA Formula 500
Formula SCCA

Yes, I know spec-Miata and SR are not Formula classes but they are competing for drivers with the Formula classes. I did not include FV either as I already have this info. No & No.

I am not specifically looking for discussion on this topic as I will be charting my results, but please comment as required for a clear answer.

Thanks, Greg Rice
greg13rice@hotmail.com

[Purple Frog]

By putting "safe" and "competitive" in the same question you create a paradox. I'm assuming that if the answer to any part of a question is 'no', then the answer to the whole question will be 'no'. So the answer in all cases would be 'no'. In many cases they would be safe, but in no way competitive. And that would be true from NASCAR Cup cars, IRL, down to FF and F500.

[problemchild]

Thanks Mike, but I was not looking for idealistic or philosophical or humorous comments.
There are many forms of racing in America where large men are welcomed without being disadvantaged. I am just trying to confirm which SCCA classes are like this.
For example, I was under the impression that Formula SCCA would be yes & yes.
Another example, F500 National champ Marsh is a large man. Is he driving a production car or does he have a specially-built car? Is he 50 lbs over minimum weight? Is F500 a good class for big men? I don't know. Some helpful answers may explain.
If people can select a class that they are familiar with and answer those 2 question, it would be appreciated.
Thanks!

[formulasuper]

As a former F500 racer I know of one driver that has been racing F500 cars for many years in the club national series who is about 5' 11" & probably 250lbs. He's very competitive, usually finishing in the top 6 at the Run Offs & I would consider fits safely in the production built KBS & other brand cars. I saw him do an endo at Mid Ohio on the back straight @ 100 mph with no injuries.
As a current Formula SuperVee owner, Ralt RT5, I would say the max size driver for these cars would be about 5' 11" & 180 lbs. The main limiting factor in these cars is the narrow leg opening at the front roll bulkhead.

[HazelNut]

i'm 6'2" 215 (i'm way fat this season, normally i'm around 200) and i fit in an rf97 fc. It is supposedly the smallest cockpit van diemen ever produced. I'm not "comfortable" but i do indeed fit and have had a couple decent runs in the car. so i'd say it is competative. What is holding the car back from being fast is my driving skill not my stature.

[SStadel]

For Formula SCCA, I would say. yes & yes.

[problemchild]

Thankyou all for your comments. I am keeping score.
I am treating the competitive factor as the ability to meet or almost meet the minimum weight, rather than an interpretative opinion. Perhaps some numbers (maximum weight of driver in order to make minimum) for each class would help where the Question 1 answer is no.
I expect prep shops that run a variety of rental drivers would have the best answers.
Greg

[Tom Dalrymple]

Spec racers are definitely yes and yes. I've had customers approaching 250 and being able to meet minimum weight. The cockpit is plenty big for anybody, and the seat likewise.

[Beartrax]

i'm 6'2" 215 (i'm way fat this season, normally i'm around 200) .

Wait until Kniffin sees this!

It's the Dunkin Munchkins!

Sorry to highjack

[R John Lye]

FWIW, I used to crew for a Spec Racer Ford driver who was about 6'2" and 305 lbs
at the time. He was a bit above minimum weight, but always ran at the front, and
won several races.

John

[Curtis Boggs]

6'2", .. 198 lbs., .. 2000 Van Diemen FF, .. 1107 lbs, .. on a 1100 lb minimum.
Fit comfortable, .. ..

Curtis

[Marshall Mauney]

Another example, F500 National champ Marsh is a large man. Is he driving a production car or does he have a specially-built car? Is he 50 lbs over minimum weight? Is F500 a good class for big men?

Yes, Doug Marsh is not small, and he is fast. I don't know his specific weight, but he certainly isn't 170 lbs. His car IS custom-built, of his design, but there's really not anything that I can see that makes it really unusual - it's just really efficiently laid out.

There is another front-runner in F500 (probably the other one mentioned already) who is heavy, as well; a Runoffs medalist, picked by SportsCar to win one year, IIRC. His car is 'off-the-rack', but with some details changed to lower the weight, i.e., liberal use of carbon fiber in strategic locations. He, like Marsh, is a really good driver.

F500 has an interesting situation right now, given that the new 493 engine adds a 50-lb weight penalty. The heavy guys run a 493 at 850lbs; the lighter guys (like me) run the 494 at 800. Since I have a 'heavy' car that is about 635 lbs at race end (I have to add ballast to get to 800), there's quite a bit of potential for someone 200+ to get very close to the 850 mark - more if they're creative.

From a safety perspective, I haven't seen any situations where the driver's size would impact safety. One tall driver, in particular, seems to ALWAYS get called in for roll hoop height, but when he is actually checked in tech, he meets the measurement (I think he leans his head forward when he drives).

[reisertracing]

I am 6'2", 205 #, when I ran spec racer renault I weighed 250# of lean muscle at 12% body fat, went to Formula Mazda and lost weight.Wear size 48" long jacket now.
My 2 cent:

Formuala Mazda- big cockpit .plenty of room for my size
Formula Continental- Citation- big for FC car but tight in shoulders,length okay
FC-Reynard-hip hugger, tight in shoulders, length okay,
FC-Tatuus- cramped and had to shift to 4th gear and reverse hand, too small
CSR-Shannon-huge, need to pad myself, lenght spacious
FV-citation-huge, very roomy, used to sleep in car
FV-caracal- fit tight, but roomy,
hope that helps

Johhny

[Mark H]

I have had some problems fitting into the 84 Reynard mainly in the sub belt area.

[R. Pare]

What was the problem? Couldn't get them tight enough?

[Mark H]

Well you know?? The belt was too long.

[M.L.Sauce]

I am 5'7'' and until recently 250 plus.I had to build my own car to get to minimum weight.I am going to have to add weight to make minimum now as I lost 30 lbs.My Van Diemen FC (98) is plenty roomy for me even at 250.I have a Swift DB6 that I modified the upper bars to fit in.Bottom line is if want to do it almost anyone can find a Formula car to fit in. Making weight for heavy guys like me will always be a problem if you buy a production based Formula car.

[Thomas Copeland]

6'2", 230 lbs. Raced last year at 245. In the process of trying to drop more weight, maybe down to 215 or so, maybe more.

Racing safely? You'll have to ask to guys I race against. But weight shouldn't be a factor in whether or not you are a safe driver. My physical condition appears to be okay (except for a recent back injury which is nearly recovered). I'm 47 now, not in prime anymore. But I've come out of the car (FF) panting after a hard race as an in-shape 22 year old weighing 180 lbs. too.

I had to modify my old FC 94 VD to fit inside of it. Looks like I'll have to do the same with the FC 00 VD I have. It wasn't the gut, it was the broad shoulders. I have raced the FC 00 VD off-on for 2 years but still can't turn the wheel as freely as I would like because my shoulders are so pinched by the chassis frame in the cockpit. A real handicap. Also, all the extra weight puts me at a disadvantage driving against lighter drivers. What's the point of doing all the measuring and running a lighter fuel load if you and the car are already 150 lbs heavier than your competitors dry?

If you weigh anything over 200 lbs, you have to be twice the driver just to keep up and 3 times the driver to win as the other guy. The other guy most likely being that 130 lb. ex-go kart left foot braking wiz kid. But anyone under 200 lbs soaking wet would probably easily classify as the more competitively enabled "other guy".

I would like all my competitors to carry ballast to match my weight in the car. Let's make it a "fair fight"!!!

[bryancohnracing]

Hi Greg,

Since I ran a shop for some time, and owned many different cars over the years, I can give you some feedback:

I'm 6ft 1in, 200lbs. I have extremely wide hips and no butt to speak of, which makes it tough to fit between the lap belt pick ups in most cars. I also have size 13 feet.

My Cars:
Autodynamics Mk4 FV Yes and Yes
Reynard 84FF No and No
Reynard 88FF Yes and No
Swift DB-1 NO and NO!!! (I could not move my legs once in the car. Knee's against bell cranks, etc.
Citation 93 SF (FC) Yes and Yes (I bought it from a guy who was 6ft 5in, 240lbs)
Van Dieman RF98 Yes and Yes (same as RF97, smallest cockpit of any VD. I used the small aluminum steering wheel that some FV drivers use)
Van Dieman RF85 Yes and Yes (Had to cut a tube out of the footbox area to fit in my right shoe. Couldn't apply the throttle!)
Royale RP 24 Yes and Yes (I've had two of these cars)

Cars I've raced that weren't mine:
Shrike P15 S2000 Yes and Yes
Tiga SC85 S2000 Yes and Yes
Swift DB-5 S2000 Yes and Yes

I've also raced in the following SCCA classes: GT5, SSC, SSB, SSA, SSGT, ITC, ITB, ITA, ITE, IT7, SM, SP (in a Craftsman Truck!), plus many more I can't recall at 11:45pm!
I used to do a lot of trading work for driving....

My biggest problem over the years is finding a seat that will fit my hips. So far I've not found a mass produced racing seat that fits. If my hips fit, the rest of the seat is so bloody huge I swim in it. If it's too snug, I end up bruised like no tomorrow. In all my formula cars I've had to make custom seats.

I hope this info is of use to you.

[problemchild]

Thanks guys,

I have concluded my research project. Since the thread had buried itself I left it be. Now that it has picked up again, I would like to thank those who offered up their comments.

As would be expected, virtually all of the racing which competes with the SCCA Formula classes in the American race car market, can welcome regular-sized men (who are considered absurdly large by our SCCA standards). Yes, 6-5 tall men that weigh 250 lbs can race safely and competitively in classes like Legends, Cuplites, Late Models, any DIRT class including Sportsman, Modified, and Late Model. Some classes like F500 and Spec Miata have different engines with different weights .... which allows larger drivers to pick the minimum weight that they race to.

I have no horse in this race and only wish to share my observations. Next time you hear of a prospective driver who chose oval racing, SRF, Spec Miata, FSCCA, .... instead of FF or FC .... maybe they had no choice.

Cheers!

[Larry]

...gee, I hope Tim Minor, Chas Shafer and several other expected FC front-runners that are over 200 pounds don't read this! They don't understand that they're not competitive! We have research to prove it! No wonder Chas was only running 2nd last year when he spun. No wonder Tim qualified 4th (or thereabouts).

I guess we should introduce a couple new classes; FFF and FFC, with the first F standing for fat, and the rules requiring that the driver weigh at least 200 pounds. When I register for my next regional, I'll try to sign in as FFF.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products
Unsafe and uncompetitive at any weight

[problemchild]

Thanks Larry.

There are many larger-than-average men racing competitively in FF & FC ... but very few big men. As a 25 year veteran of FV, FF, and FC, I know all about selecting appropriate cars and then customizing them to fit my 220 lb body. It is very possible but can be time-consuming and expensive. As you get heavier or bigger ... it gets more difficult

I also know alot of big guys that started racing Formula cars but now race SM, SS, or race ovals .... because they could not fit or be competitive. Yes, we can tell them to exercise, diet, chop off a limb or two ..... but the bottom line is that they are now racing in classes that are growing while the Formula car fields are not.

I just don't think that many prospective Formula car drivers are prepared to customize a specifically purchased car when they can go race something else.

I am not fighting any political battles here but was merely passing on my observations which some may find interesting. Competitors that are 6'5" tall and weigh 250 lbs can go racing safely and competitively .... just not here. I thank those who provided info.

[Larry]

Well, thanks for your observations. I'm not equipped to differentiate between large and big. I was, at 265 pounds, big (I think). I have never been tall. At my current 225, perhaps I am large, but I'm not sure. Nor do I know whether a 6'5" man weighing 175 would be big, although he would be tall (at least on my scale). He would likely have problems with leg room and foot room, but those would be unrelated to weight. In spite of the problems, he may still be competitive and capable of winning. I don't know anyone who is 6'5", but I do know several drivers of 6'+ that are clearly capable of competing and winning in either FC or FF.

I have seen plenty of tall (or long-legged) drivers who have found it necessary to slide into the cockpit with their legs nearly sideways so they can get under the forward hoop and get their feet past the steering rack before comfortably settling into their driving position. I have then witnessed them spank shorter, slimmer drivers with far more expensive equipment.

I guess we are going to disagree on this. As I view it, anyone within the 95% range of humanity can find a suitable FF or FC that they can fit in safely. The competitive aspect of winning has nothing to do with size and only a little to do with the car. It has everything to do with physical and mental capability and with the willingness to practice, develop the car, work on set-up and have enough budget to bring it all to fruition.

Larry Oliver
International Racing Products

[BGilkes]

Greg,
Purely my perspective, at 6 foot and 200lbs, I struggled in the 97 VD but feel comfortable with the 99. Seemed that shoulders and particular arm length for shifting gears was a problem in the 97.
Have you retired for real or is there 1 more comeback left?
Brent

[Chuck Hovonick]

Greg:
Now that the thread has about run out, I'll throw in my 2 cents worth - The parameters you set up for your study appear to have been aimed, without actually saying so, at cars that would be commonly run in Nationals, thereby excluding a lot of cars that are being raced right now; specifically any number of FF's that are being run as Club Fords, as well as (possibly, I've never been in one) some of the older FF2000's. While the conclusions you reached may be valid for the sample you took, it seems to me that a wider sample might have produced somewhat different conclusions. There are a number of those older cars that easily accomodate drivers that fit your categories, and can be competitive. I can give a few of examples from my own experience. The outboard TIGA FF's are huge inside, so much so that Chris Kneifel (6'-6 or 7") drove one and was always Top Three material in CEN/DIV around 1979-81, the heyday of FF. I myself (no brag, just fact) had a couple of short-lived Club Ford lap records in CEN/DIV in my TIGA, both of which were set when I was at 230+ pounds on a 6'-5" frame. I cannot remember what make car he drove (old age creeping up on me), but Dave Harmison is taller than I, although not nearly as wide, and was/is more than competitive in Club Ford. Finally, the Zinks (Citation) of the period held some large people as well, and I comfortably drove, but did not race, a pre-32F Crossle. I'm sure there are a few other cars that could be listed, but there's no sense in belaboring the point. There are Formula cars out there in which big men can fit and be competitive in the appropriate class. There may be lots of reasons to go to other forms of racing, but I'm not sure physical size is necessarily at the top of the list of those reasons, IF you open up the sample to include ALL formula cars.

Chuck Hovonick