State of the art head porting...

[alangbaker]

I was talking with my friend, Terry (master machinist and engine builder) as we examined the head of my Ford for the reason I had water in the #1 cylinder (short answer: the head is fine and the cylinder liner--and the block are both cracked).

He was looking at the port work done on the head and remarked that it was "too smooth"; that the trend today was to leave the ports somewhat rough from the cnc machining.

Does that apply to the Kent?

If I'm having Terry build me a new engine—either repairing my current block, or using my other one, I'm inclined to try this.

Does anyone know if that's what Ivey, Quicksilver, etc. are doing?

[Rick Kirchner]

the roughness in the ports is supposed to induce turbulence for better mixing.

Be very careful, folks that are not used to working on FF/FC heads frequently render them illegal.

[alangbaker]

the roughness in the ports is supposed to induce turbulence for better mixing.

Be very careful, folks that are not used to working on FF/FC heads frequently render them illegal.

I've already given Terry my copy of “How to Build and Maintain Competitive (yet legal) Formula Ford 1600 Engines” by Jake Lamont...

[glenn cooper]

There's only so much you can do to help a tractor engine

[racerdad2]

Intake ports with dimples or roughness to add turbulence for improved air-fuel mix & combustion. Polished exhaust ports for improved exit & scavanging. Again, if legal

[alangbaker]

There's only so much you can do to help a tractor engine

True enough...

...but racing tractors is a lot cheaper than racing converted motorcycles.

[old 59]

...but racing tractors is a lot cheaper than racing converted motorcycles.

Don't be too sure of that.

[Wren]

True enough...

...but racing tractors is a lot cheaper than racing converted motorcycles.

nope

[Brian]

There are lots of people who think they know about cylinder heads, and do know about big block Chevy's, Hemi's etc. There are few people who know about Formula Ford cylinder heads. Curtis Boggs once told a friend of mine that even though he had CNC equipment for the drag race stuff the Formula Ford stuff still had to be done by hand. The valve job is critical - lap the valves on your big-buck cylinder head and lose a couple HP.

Brian

[alangbaker]

There are lots of people who think they know about cylinder heads, and do know about big block Chevy's, Hemi's etc. There are few people who know about Formula Ford cylinder heads. Curtis Boggs once told a friend of mine that even though he had CNC equipment for the drag race stuff the Formula Ford stuff still had to be done by hand. The valve job is critical - lap the valves on your big-buck cylinder head and lose a couple HP.

I think you're missing the point. This was never about whether or not you should do a Ford head on a CNC machine. I only mentioned CNC because he discussed it for the effect it had on the flow through the ports.

The question is: what is the current thinking regarding the effect of surface roughness on the ports of a Formula Ford engine? Are the guys who are good at building engines and heads for Formula Ford now leaving the surfaces of the ports something less than a mirror smooth finish; regardless of the means they may be using to achieve that finish?

[gcoffin]

Race prepared FF heads are not all created equal. Your's maybe very good or very bad, without the dyno sheets and flow rates you do not know. Even with these it is still a black art because some parts just work together better than others.

So if you decide to do some head work you will either make the engine perform better or worse. And even if you do have the dyno numbers you will still be in the dark because numbers vary from dyno to dyno. More than likely you will not be able to notice any change at all, but you may make the head illegal. In addition rebuilds by local shops (which are certainly capable of doing the job) tend to devalue rather than add value. The reason is that engine failure rates caused by recognized builders are very very rare. If you do go the local route make sure you paint the motor some other color than that used by a recognized builder. Engine colors are basically their calling card and they can get very picky about them and rightfully so.

I am guessing that you are early in your race career. If so the best way to get fast is seat time pure and simple. And the way to get seat time is to concentrate your efforts towards developing a reliable race car. Hope to see you at the track. Drop by and say hello, I am way less preachy in person

[alangbaker]

Race prepared FF heads are not all created equal. Your's maybe very good or very bad, without the dyno sheets and flow rates you do not know. Even with these it is still a black art because some parts just work together better than others.

One, I don't believe in the black arts...

2, and more importantly, I'm simply curious as to what is the current state of the (perhaps black) art.

So if you decide to do some head work you will either make the engine perform better or worse. And even if you do have the dyno numbers you will still be in the dark because numbers vary from dyno to dyno. More than likely you will not be able to notice any change at all, but you may make the head illegal. In addition rebuilds by local shops (which are certainly capable of doing the job) tend to devalue rather than add value. The reason is that engine failure rates caused by recognized builders are very very rare. If you do go the local route make sure you paint the motor some other color than that used by a recognized builder. Engine colors are basically their calling card and they can get very picky about them and rightfully so.

I thank you for the info and opinions, but none of it answers the question I asked...

I am guessing that you are early in your race career. If so the best way to get fast is seat time pure and simple. And the way to get seat time is to concentrate your efforts towards developing a reliable race car. Hope to see you at the track. Drop by and say hello, I am way less preachy in person

I'll happily see you at the track... ...one of these days.

At the moment, seat time is not an option, so I'm indulging my curiosity in matters technical.

[racerdad2]

Perhaps a careful read of the GCR will tide you over until someone decides to leak the classified info you seek ?

[alangbaker]

Perhaps a careful read of the GCR will tide you over until someone decides to leak the classified info you seek ?

Perhaps, but I've already read the salient portion:

B.12.c. Cylinder Head

1. Ports may be reshaped by the removal of metal as long as the port diameter at the manifold face of the head does not exceed the following dimensions:
Inlet: 1.50” Exhaust: 1.20”

Which is good to know...

...if I were actually going to have anything done to the head...

...which I'm not...

...at the moment...

...but which, if I did, would take those limitations into account.

[Becker Motorsports]

Racerdad2 supplied the info you need

[Albatross]

Alan: Why don't you read the the first page or at least the first paragraph of Chap 12 of the aforementioned book "How to Build and Maintain competitive (yet Legal) Formula Ford 1600 engines" by Lamont. It begins with, "This should be easy short and sweet. Take your head. Put it in a box, well protected. Ship it to your favorite pro FF engine builder with some money and instructions to fix it right....It cannot be emphasized enough how much of an advantage it is to have the cylinder head prepared by one of the FF pros..."

I encourage you and your friend (Master Mechanic) to read that page together and hopefully he will give you your head and engine back so the you can send all of it to a Canadian FF engine builder that perhaps Marty Knoll would recommend.

BTW, I won Two Conference championships and have many laps at Westwood (Wetwood).

[Purple Frog]

What the "artists" such as Curtis Boggs are doing is optimizing the manifold, not perfecting it. In its initial design the manifold has faults such that some runners tend to get less flow than others, etc. Account must be taken that the venturis in the carb in effect are restrictors, so one is in effect developing a "restrictor plate" manifold, not an optimum manifold.
Much time is spent on the flow bench. I venture to say that duplicating the success of the 'artists' requires duplicating their learning process, which OBTW included many mistakes.

[alangbaker]

Look, folks: I appreciate the interest, I really do.

But you're all answering questions I'm not asking.

I'm not asking, "What is the best way to get the best FF head work done?" It's a fine question to be sure; a useful question.

I'm also not asking, "What will make my head legal or illegal?" That, too, is a useful question.

All I'm asking is if anyone knows whether or not a particular concept is being used in Formula Ford engine building.

Surely there is one person here who has had a head ported relatively recently. Could you not look at the port walls and see if they are completely smooth or left a little rough?

I'm JUST curious.

[Bill Bonow]

Alan,

I think the nature of your question may be why few would give you a direct answer. What your asking has value to those that build top engines. Its sort of like walking up to a guy and saying, "hey, your wife looks pretty good, can you lift up her dress so I can take a look?....... I'm just curious.".

Drive your car and enjoy it. When your ready to go faster, send the engine to a Jay Ivey, Arnie Loyning or similar. No need to be curious.

[alangbaker]

Alan,

I think the nature of your question may be why few would give you a direct answer. What your asking has value to those that build top engines. Its sort of like walking up to a guy and saying, "hey, your wife looks pretty good, can you lift up her dress so I can take a look?....... I'm just curious.".

Drive your car and enjoy it. When your ready to go faster, send the engine to a Jay Ivey, Arnie Loyning or similar. No need to be curious.

I'm sorry, Bill, but I think that comparison is nonsense.

I'm asking a relatively simple question, and one which anyone who has a recently done head can answer. There is literally no way an engine builder can reasonably expect that the surface roughness (or lack of it) could be kept secret. There may be secrets that engine builders would like to keep, but let's have a show of hands: who here has had to sign a non-disclosure agreement to have head work done? Anyone?

But more to the point:

I keep getting informed that new posts have been made in my thread, and I come to see if someone has perhaps answered the question I asked...

...and I keep getting people who think they need to offer me advice on how to best enjoy my car, or how to get the best head, etc. Even if you think I "need" it, I'm not looking for advice, honest!

I really am just curious about a technical question!

That's just the way my mind works. I was discussing a technical issue with someone who has a different perspective on the basic subject matter and he raised an interesting point, and it got me curious. So I've come to the the place where presumably there are a bunch of folks how might know what's going on in this particular niche of the making horsepower question.

Is it really too much to ask that people address what I've asked instead of what they clearly think I'm really asking? For instance, who here likes me making assumptions about what is going through your minds as you post in this thread?

OK. End of rant.

[Bill Bonow]

I'm sorry, Bill, but I think that comparison is nonsense.

OK, I'll accept that you feel the comparison is nonsense.

The answer to your question is known by specific people (most likely less than a dozen in the US) who are not likely to give away any technical details about how they prep heads. That is how they make their living.

Apexspeed is loaded with very knowledgeable people. Think about that when you read your question not being directly answered.

P.S. If you don't like the post notification, that is a feature that can be turned off under Additional Options/Notification type on the reply page.

[Rob Leonick]

I agree. Every time someone asks a queston the only answer they get is "You can't do that, take it to the experts" Why don't you say "I don" know I'm not Jay Ivey, I just send my engine and money to him" The answer to your question is that if I just spent $2500 for a expert cylinder head I won't tell anyone what I have. Thats just how racing works. No one is going to give away information that they spent alot of time and money to find out. Ask someone what tire pressure they run and you probably wont get a strate answer. As for the "black art" I dont beleave in that either. Its a piece of metal that can be measured and copyed. The problem is that you have to spend the money to get the best head and then copy it properly. Just my 2 cents! Fire away.
Rob

[Fred Michael]

The people who have had a head ported recently also had that head put on an engine by the engine builder and have not seen the ports. They trust the engine to the builder and have no reason to look.
I seriously doubt you will get a satisfactory answer to your question.

[Purple Frog]

See here is the real story. The people who can afford the best heads; 1. Don't read Apexspeed. 2. Might not even look inside their engines (they have crew for that). 3. have already converted to Honda or Zetec and thus don't have any tractor motor heads to look at. 4. don't want to say. or.... all of the above.

Us peons just don't know the answer because our heads are 10 years old or older.

[KevinFirlein]

I have a top of the line Kent and have had the head off to replace a bent valve. I know the answer for my particular builder but I would never put his business on the street. Like me he earns 100% of his living from the knowledge he has acquired. My driver paid for the engine but just because I serviced the head doesn't give me the right to give away someone elses trade craft. If the knowledge is mine, that I learned on my own, I may or may not choose to answer a question but I would never give away someone elses info even if its residing in my shop at the moment.

[DK540]

I do feel for you because I think you're just trying to learn and gather data. I want to do the same but sometimes my questions have crossed the line. I learned/realized about a month ago when I innocently asked, "Hey, everybody, where do your dump tubes point? How far? Share photos?"

Well, no offense to you or me, but I realized a couple days later, after there were almost no responses, "Oh, right, that was a bit naïve, these are guys I might be racing against and these are horsepower secrets and I've gotta learn them the way everyone else learned 'em -- pay the guy that knows or do the trial and error myself."

I think your best course of action is to take some photos of what you've got and keep 'em. Anytime you see a head not on an engine, take mental notes and photos if they let you, make some friends at the track and maybe one will hint at what he's got, or maybe he'll just smile at you, or maybe write directly to one or two of the Australian guys you'll never race. People will openly debate synchronous vs. progressive, or tilted manifold vs. straight, because those are obvious, but Coca Cola's not talking and neither is anybody who thinks he may have two more horsepower than you do based on something they can keep secret but still may be completely legal.

[Brian]

The best Formula Ford 1600 cylinder head I ever saw the ports on, a state of the art Curtis Boggs circa 2007 aluminium head that cost far more than I now credit, had very smooth ports (probably 80 grit) with no dimpling, was hand cut not CNC, and was matched to a particular intake manifold. Hope that helps. Credit it or not, top notch FF1600 cylinder heads are hand done, not CNC, and are indeed black magic. FWIW, in 2007 Boggs was making serious big HP drag race heads and doing them on his CNC machine. He didn't (and doesn't, as far as I know) use his CNC machine on Formula Ford heads. CNC is good when you are looking for 25 or 50 hp on top of 1,000 hp, not when you are looking for 1 - 2 hp on top of 100 hp.

As much as 2 - 3 hp of a Formula Ford 1600 Kent engine lie in the valve job. As soon as you lap the valves you toss that hp away. It is a very subtle and magical interface.

Brian

[brownslane]

Alan, I hope you finally got the message. If not, let me spell it out for you.

I have been doing this for 30-odd years and I would be pissed if the lessons I learned over those years were passed along to somebody who has not earned this information. How do you earn this information? Write a cheque or take thirty years of experimentation and money spent and learn the information yourself.

I feed my kids with what I learned and what I do. And you are going to give this information to a machine shop/engine builder who has not earned any of this knowledge? Really??

You are treating the information like this is a ham radio club or something. Many of us earn our living doing this stuff. It is not a hobby. We have customers who pay our bills in order to take advantage of our skills and knowledge; they write cheques (some of them big cheques) so they can win races. This is serious stuff to a lot of people, something I do not think you understood.

I am always amazed at the immense amount of shared knowledge on this site. And most everyone will be free with assistance helping you with problem solving . But racecraft needs to be earned.


Respectfully, Tom

[alangbaker]

OK, I'll accept that you feel the comparison is nonsense.

The answer to your question is known by specific people (most likely less than a dozen in the US) who are not likely to give away any technical details about how they prep heads. That is how they make their living.

Again, as a practical matter, there is NO WAY to keep the information that someone is making intake ports rougher instead of smoother. They may be able to keep the techniques used quiet, but not the fact of it being done. Any who has had a head done would know.

Apexspeed is loaded with very knowledgeable people. Think about that when you read your question not being directly answered.

So far, it's been far less than "not directly answered", unless there is a post following the one to which I'm replying with an answer, it hasn't been answered in any way shape or form.

P.S. If you don't like the post notification, that is a feature that can be turned off under Additional Options/Notification type on the reply page.

Thanks, but the point I'm trying to make is that I'd like the notifications I get to mean something in the context of the subject I started, not what other people seem to think I must have meant, or what they think would be better for me to do (when I'm not doing anything, yet).

For the record, I think that one of my heads is an Ivey, but it is also quite an old one. Unless there is some compelling reason to do so, I'm not planning more than the careful assembly of parts I already have.

[Bill Bonow]

Being this thread is 100% about Kent head work, I'll move this thread to the FF section where it's more targeted

[alangbaker]

Alan, I hope you finally got the message. If not, let me spell it out for you.

I have been doing this for 30-odd years and I would be pissed if the lessons I learned over those years were passed along to somebody who has not earned this information. How do you earn this information? Write a cheque or take thirty years of experimentation and money spent and learn the information yourself.

I feed my kids with what I learned and what I do. And you are going to give this information to a machine shop/engine builder who has not earned any of this knowledge? Really??

You are treating the information like this is a ham radio club or something. Many of us earn our living doing this stuff. It is not a hobby. We have customers who pay our bills in order to take advantage of our skills and knowledge; they write cheques (some of them big cheques) so they can win races. This is serious stuff to a lot of people, something I do not think you understood.

I am always amazed at the immense amount of shared knowledge on this site. And most everyone will be free with assistance helping you with problem solving . But racecraft needs to be earned.


Respectfully, Tom

OK, Tom, respectfully.

1. I've never done anything but ask a fairly general question. I've not asked anyone for any techniques or numbers or anything. Just if anyone had notice if the ports in a Kent motor have gone from smoother to rougher.

2. Stop imagining you (and everybody else) knows what I'm thinking. I never said anything about passing anything along to anyone. I said it before, I'll say it again:

I WAS JUST PERSONALLY CURIOUS.

Period. End of story. Just intellectual curiosity about whether such a thing was being used universally, or whether it was more of a specialized thing for a particular niche, and because I'm new to this particular niche, yes: I was interested if anyone had seen it here. Now, you're of course free to believe I have the evil motivations you seem to think I do, but you're simply wrong.

3. Nowhere. Not once. In no way have I suggested that anyone owes me an answer to my question in the first place! If you know, but don't want to tell me: fine! If you don't know: that's fine too! Just stop answering questions I didn't ask.

On a more direct note about me supposedly taking food out of the mouths of your children: if the mere dissemination of the fact that a particular tuning idea is of use in a class in which you do work is enough to do that, I think you have issues other than me and my little thread. If the only thing bring your customers back to you is that they don't have a piece of very general knowledge that you do, how much value can you really be adding? I think you're probably selling yourself short.

And none of this has anything whatsoever to do with "racecraft".

In short... ...everyone:

If you don't want to answer my query, don't answer. Just don't answer. Nobody owes me a thing except perhaps the respect that I mean what I say.

Thanks.

[alangbaker]

The best Formula Ford 1600 cylinder head I ever saw the ports on, a state of the art Curtis Boggs circa 2007 aluminium head that cost far more than I now credit, had very smooth ports (probably 80 grit) with no dimpling, was hand cut not CNC, and was matched to a particular intake manifold. Hope that helps. Credit it or not, top notch FF1600 cylinder heads are hand done, not CNC, and are indeed black magic. FWIW, in 2007 Boggs was making serious big HP drag race heads and doing them on his CNC machine. He didn't (and doesn't, as far as I know) use his CNC machine on Formula Ford heads. CNC is good when you are looking for 25 or 50 hp on top of 1,000 hp, not when you are looking for 1 - 2 hp on top of 100 hp.

As much as 2 - 3 hp of a Formula Ford 1600 Kent engine lie in the valve job. As soon as you lap the valves you toss that hp away. It is a very subtle and magical interface.

Brian

Thanks, Brian.

That's precisely the sort of answer I was looking for. And don't get hung up on the CNC thing. It was merely a framing comment because my friend, Terry, explained that the marks from such machinING were left in the ports to give them the roughness in some cases.

[Daryl DeArman]

We aren't talking about port shape or port volume....we are talking about the accepted current best practice for port surface...hardly a trade secret....and if I had a current state of the art head to look at I'd have no reservations about sharing that info.

These engine builders all know what the others are doing. They are either doing the same thing OR they don't think it's the best/legal way. You aren't giving away any secrets.

[alangbaker]

We aren't talking about port shape or port volume....we are talking about the accepted current best practice for port surface...hardly a trade secret....and if I had a current state of the art head to look at I'd have no reservations about sharing that info.

These engine builders all know what the others are doing. They are either doing the same thing OR they don't think it's the best/legal way. You aren't giving away any secrets.

Thank you!

From the reaction I've received, you'd think I was selling nuclear secrets to the North Koreans.

[grumpyf14d]

I've recently had a few heads done and seen a number of others. Seems as if the rough finish is a bit more in vogue. The motor I built was just a shade behind the one well known motor here in the UK and the head we had done was finished rough. The most widely known Kent motor ever made over here was known as "Patch" and it had smooth bores. That I'm sure makes it clear as mud. One thing that was conveyed to me while I was searching for a good head builder was that maximum flow isn't always the answer as good air fuel mixture was every bit as important. That would mean shape and surface preparation was equally important in delivering the most effective fuel air mixture.

[problemchild]

Thank you!

From the reaction I've received, you'd think I was selling nuclear secrets to the North Koreans.

The reaction you received was that a bunch of caring people tried to give you good advice that will help you spend your resources to have the most successful racing possible. We all have seen many people come in who "know better" or have the buddy who can "do it better" despite having no expertise or specific experience. Several years later, both are no longer involved and many dollars wasted, or the buddy is no longer a buddy. Nobody wants you to be "that" guy. If you are "that" guy, you won't understand my comments either

There is great knowledge available at Apexspeed. People get different benefits depending on their ability to listen, learn, and apply that knowledge.

[alangbaker]

The reaction you received was that a bunch of caring people tried to give you good advice that will help you spend your resources to have the most successful racing possible. We all have seen many people come in who "know better" or have the buddy who can "do it better" despite having no expertise or specific experience. Several years later, both are no longer involved and many dollars wasted, or the buddy is no longer a buddy. Nobody wants you to be "that" guy. If you are "that" guy, you won't understand my comments either

There is great knowledge available at Apexspeed. People get different benefits depending on their ability to listen, learn, and apply that knowledge.

Greg, thanks for the thoughts, and maybe some of "those" guys have come through, I don't know.

But I didn't claim to know any better. (How many times do I have to repeat this?):

I WAS JUST CURIOUS.

There is no hidden agenda behind my question. I'm not even contemplating getting any head work of any kind done (beyond fixing any obvious problems that are discovered, and no, smooth vs rough does not count as an "obvious problem"). Someone I know mentioned a point in passing and I wanted to ask the people who happened to have the same engines as mine whether it applied in this area. Simple intellectual curiosity, nothing more.

Please, everyone: stop imagining you know what is going through my head. I'm sure your motivations for answering as you did are pure, but they were based on faulty assumptions.

So thanks, but if you don't want to talk about the question I actually asked:

Please stop. Enough. Leave off. Desist.

OK? Thanks.

I swear: any more off topic posts and I'm going to have to killfile my own thread...



(BTW, for the record: my friend didn't intimate in any way that he could "do it better". He simply noted the difference from what he was more accustomed to seeing.)

[Daryl DeArman]

There is great knowledge available at Apexspeed. People get different benefits depending on their ability to listen, learn, and apply that knowledge.

Agreed Greg.

I've utilized the services of pro engine builders in just about every class I've raced. They are a great value due to their technical support, customer service, rulebook knowledge and accepted interpretations, access to better/best components. They have also proven to be instrumental in getting rules changed to help the future of many classes. Those are more than enough reasons to support your selected pro engine builder.


However, the tone of the thread suggested it was blasphemy to ask such a general question about something so readily apparent to anyone who has seen their engine without manifolds attached. He wasn't asking for "trade secrets". He might as well been asking what color to paint the engine to make it faster

[racerdad2]

I've always found red to be the fastest color. Just ask the traffic cops

[DFR Dave Freitas]

Haven't seen this much anger since Seb got onto the top step in Canada.