FV Disc Brakes

[Matt Clark]

It seems like the off season has officially begun.

And just think, it's still October.


Classes evolve. That's all there is to it. Think of what FV was in the 1970s compared to now. Yes, there was not a major overhaul of the class, but some changes happened. Discussing & trying to sort out the whys & why nots is a good thing. Changing to discs should not be as big of a deal as it's being turned into. IF DONE RIGHT (and that seems to be the hangup), there would be an adjustment period, but it would work out in the end just fine.

[sracing]

You may pretend the fst has won,

Huh? I am not pretending FST has won. I only stated that the FST parts package has clearly won as far as ("Cost, maintenance ease longevity, parts availability, size, weight and more")

but all your excuses or reasons can not change the fact that your numbers have not.

I made no excuses. FST is what it is. I did not say FST will be the future. That will depend upon what the SCCA does.

Blaming the failure of your class on another is just not reasonable. You started out trying to replace FV, failure. Then you went to, we want to be a stand alone class, failure.

Wrong on every point and if you go back and read any of our concept documents you would know that. First of all, I wouldn't call FST a failure. You might want to check the history and participation numbers. (Not bad considering we only promoted in one region with lack of support from ANYONE including the SCCA. The vast majority of our drivers were new entries with either no racing or been inactive for a long time. AND we started in a large economic downturn. We NEVER tried to replace FV. We started as out own class but set out rules package up so that conversion for FV would be as easy as possible. (About 1/2 our fields are converted FV's.) I have voted against almost every suggested change to FV. Leave it as it is except for those almost mandatory issues like parts shortages. So where was I trying to convert FV? We ALWAYS wanted to be a stand alone class.

Now that is the number you need,

As I said, make it a National class and see what happens. But that is the catch 22.

rather than this silly blame game, of comparison.

"Silly" ? What is silly, is you saying I (we) are blaming FV for a non-existent "failure".

No one is blaming FV.

BTW, just for fun... Why DO YOU think FST has not taken off in larger numbers and become a National Class ?

[BLS]

BTW, just for fun... Why DO YOU think FST has not taken off in larger numbers and become a National Class ?

The catch 22 - it needs to be a nat class to take off in numbers...

MHO, YMMV,

Barry

[Doug FST 5]

You may pretend the fst has won, .

Everytime I go to the track with reduced operating costs and a great bunch of folks to run with I've won. That's what's important to me.

My post was about pointing out that ease of construction and service are an issue for newbies. If FV wants to encourage new teams to join that might be something to look at.

I'm off to Gateway.....

Doug FST 5

[Matt King]

BTW, just for fun... Why DO YOU think FST has not taken off in larger numbers and become a National Class ?

As I recall, for a number of years, the FST guys were adamant that they did not want National class status, and actively campaigned to avoid it. Has that changed?

[Garry Sharp]

You may pretend the fst has won, but all your excuses or reasons can not change the fact that your numbers have not. That in a nut shell is the only number that counts. Blaming the failure of your class on another is just not reasonable. You started out trying to replace FV, failure. Then you went to, we want to be a stand alone class, failure. Now you have come full circle, trying something again and expecting a different result. What is the definition of that?
The FV class has been said to be dying since I have been involved, that was in 1983. Nationally it was the third highest participated group at this years Runoff. Now that is the number you need, rather than this silly blame game, of comparison. You lost that. When or if you ever achieve those same numbers, you can start your blame game anew.

You know what they say, people who are very defensive are usually very insecure.

[Bruce]

You know what they say, people who are very defensive are usually very insecure.

Funny, quite amusing, to think you are attempting to turn the tables from what is obviously a defense of the what is the definition of insanity. You admit your insecurity.

[Garry Sharp]

Funny, quite amusing, to think you are attempting to turn the tables from what is obviously a defense of the what is the definition of insanity. You admit your insecurity.

Is it me, or is this guy not making any sense.

[sracing]

As I recall, for a number of years, the FST guys were adamant that they did not want National class status, and actively campaigned to avoid it. Has that changed?

In the beginning we raced as FS. This is a regional class and gave us the flexibility to build our rules as we needed. Also we just wanted to race. None of us had plans to spend thousands of dollars to win the runoffs so that an F1 team would draft us.. .

It worked well for us. We implemented our own rules and had the flexibility to modify on the fly. Now as I pointed out (and Bruce agrees with). A National class status is needed for growth. Many of us now are supportive of that. (Some are not. Since it would give much greater control of the package to the SCCA. I am on the fence. ). Contrary to some peoples opinion, I think we are pretty successfull now. We have our own officers that make excellent arrangements with al)l our race officials. (What group, split start, what groups we race with etc. We are specificcaly contacted by multiple regions and sanctiing bodies asking us to run with them. And have been treated quite well. We are a REGIONAL class with several significant contingency sponsors. I would hardly call that a failure.

[sracing]

Everytime I go to the track with reduced operating costs and a great bunch of folks to run with I've won.

Oh sure, but without the run offs you will never make F1.

[Hardingfv32]

with). A National class status is needed for growth.

With the push for class reduction, you are dreaming.

Why don't you guys continue your blistering growth pace and get your participation numbers up to something that is worthy of consideration.

Brian

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

Brian, You continue to surprise me. Can you try and say something positive about anything.....

There must be something, Please.....

Why do you even care?

[Rolling Stone]

We all love each other in F1200...cmon up to Ontario to race

[Amon]

I thought this topic was about FV Disc Brakes??

Mark

[Bill Bonow]

Mark,

Yes it was... Key word being "was".

This thread started (1 year ago), now has about 350 posts and 22,000 views. It might be into the "Top 10" viewed threads here at ApexSpeed. Impressive stuff and obviously a subject people are interested in following.

As far as "thread meandering", moderating this place (ApexSpeed) is like cat wrangling. Sure, it's possible, but not likely to happen.

And disc brakes on FV..... IMO that ship has sailed. Give it another 5 or 10 years and try again.

[BLS]

I had forgotten just how long this thread has been going, A little thread topic slippage is inevitable...

[Amon]

Bill,

I didn't realize the age of this thread as well? Maybe it should be closed for the moment?

Mark

[Bill Bonow]

Maybe it should be closed for the moment?

And miss out on the potentially entertaining comments of Brian ?

Many will realize that various people have been asking for disc brakes in FV for decades. For the elders, they will remember when "Handsome" Dave Smith use to petition the CRB for FV disc brakes immediately after the Runoffs starting in 1978 every year until he quite racing.

Love the idea or hate the idea, FV has about as much chance of getting disc brakes approved as a blizzard in Brazil. YMMV

[veefan]

ya just never know... what might happen

8-5-2010 Brazil spans the equator and the southern hemisphere and right now it is the depth of winter in the southern states. This week, at least 33 cities in the south of Brazil suffered snowstorms (picture). In the photo, the city of Urubici, in the mountains of the Southern state of Santa Catarina. The Brazilian Forecasting Center for Weather and Climatic Studies (CPTEC) has predicted that this heavy snowfall in southern Brazil will continue at least until the end of the week.

[Matt King]

Yeah, he didn't say there was a zero percent chance.

[smsazzy]

As an avid supporter of disk brakes, I'd like to ask that we stop talking about this. It has been proposed, considered, then soundly rejected by the majority of the class. It is time we move on from this discussion and focus on other ways to grow the class and improve the racing.

[Tiago Santos]

I think we've covered all the major options - no DOT tires, no hard spec slicks, no disc brakes, no spec manifold, no dry sump, no engine options. Anything that could realistically save money in the long run has been shot down and rejected. I guess we could move on to discussing allowing wheel covers, wings, aero bits and bobs. Carbon fiber rear suspension pieces? Fuel injection? Maybe a supercharger?

[Diamond Level Motorsports]

I think we've covered all the major options - no DOT tires, no hard spec slicks, no disc brakes, no spec manifold, no dry sump, no engine options. Anything that could realistically save money in the long run has been shot down and rejected. I guess we could move on to discussing allowing wheel covers, wings, aero bits and bobs. Carbon fiber rear suspension pieces? Fuel injection? Maybe a supercharger?

Exactly........

[smsazzy]

Or we could focus on solving current parts issues in order to keep the rules platform stable.

[gbmetcalf]

The formula Vee challenge series/ Can Am challenge series has been trying to do just that in NEDIV. Looking into the Canadian F1200 model, spec manifold, and radial tires. I'm glad someone is looking into the future and saying we need to change. Don't get me wrong FV is and always will be my favorite class but my god are we so set in our ways we need to beat updating to death? I like the spec manifold idea and a spec tire. The fast drivers are going to be fast in anything they drive, and I will be having a blast just racing my butt off trying to keep up.

JMHO
G.

[Amon]

Tiago,

You forgot about "Active Suspension"....


Mark

88' Citation 002'

[Jeremy Soule]

Not quite understanding "parts Shortage", Just typed in "VW brake" on Phoenix Craig's list, found a set of drums and a set of backing plates $5 a piece..... Also a bare beam $20 and a transaxle drum to drum $150!
Then there is Yuma, Tucson, Albuquerque, Austin, Oklahoma City....

[gbmetcalf]

That is true in the west and south. Now try upstate NY..... Not many parts here on Craig's, but they arn't impossible to find if you want to travel.

G.

Not quite understanding "parts Shortage", Just typed in "VW brake" on Phoenix Craig's list, found a set of drums and a set of backing plates $5 a piece..... Also a bare beam $20 and a transaxle drum to drum $150!
Then there is Yuma, Tucson, Albuquerque, Austin, Oklahoma City....

[smsazzy]

Build me a new engine.

[smsazzy]

Oh, and when you're done with that, how about a new spindle to spindle front beam.

Note the word NEW in both requests.

[problemchild]

Not quite understanding "parts Shortage", Just typed in "VW brake" on Phoenix Craig's list, found a set of drums and a set of backing plates $5 a piece..... Also a bare beam $20 and a transaxle drum to drum $150!
Then there is Yuma, Tucson, Albuquerque, Austin, Oklahoma City....

I've got axles, axle tubes, backing plates, drums, wheels, transaxle cores ...... mostly genuine Made in Germany ....... priced at 1/3 what they would be worth if their were shortages ...... and no one is looking. There is enough of a world wide market, that that market reacts and solves true part shortages. Sometimes it takes a few months or few years, but there are enough people with used part inventories, or garage queens, to weather those storms.

[Matt King]

Oh, and when you're done with that, how about a new spindle to spindle front beam.

Note the word NEW in both requests.

I've got an idea: how about making balljoint beams and disc brakes legal?

How exactly would you propose to address these so-called shortages?

[smsazzy]

Clearly you did not see the part where I said we should stop discussing this proposal as it was soundly defeated. However, I would like to see some constructive dialog on how we can solve other issues. A great example is the progress we have made on the piston and cylinder front.

How about we now focus on getting some new engine cases (light weight like the stock case) made available. Perhaps get some new beams manufactured. I'm not suggesting rules changes Matt. Let's instead find ways to have stuff manufactured. I'd be willing to bet Jennerjahns or a host of others could manufacture brand new beam center sections. This would be a help to folks who prefer not to dumpster dive.

[Matt Clark]

Was it really "soundly defeated" though? I was under the impression that the brake proposal sent out was so confusing & poorly written that it was rejected so more thought would be put into it, but the CRB seemingly gave up. I've seen & heard a lot of positive thoughts at the track this year about moving forward with upgrades.

[problemchild]

Was it really "soundly defeated" though? I was under the impression that the brake proposal sent out was so confusing & poorly written that it was rejected so more thought would be put into it, but the CRB seemingly gave up. I've seen & heard a lot of positive thoughts at the track this year about moving forward with upgrades.

I think it more likely that the proposal was so far-fetched that the establishment did not bother putting it down. Once it gathered some steam, the establishment quickly quashed it.

FST remains a great option for people that prefer 70s VW parts instead of 60s VW parts.

[Bill Bonow]

Was it really "soundly defeated" though?

Yes.

Greg likes the term "establishment", I like the term "FV zombies".

YMMV

[BLS]

"Soundly defeated" how? I assume most of the letters received were opposed. My letter was opposed, but opposed to the proposal as written, not opposed to BJ/disc brakes. I'm just curious about the soundly part. Is there public information about this or does it come from inside knowledge?

[BLS]

Let's instead find ways to have stuff manufactured.

Stephen, this might be possible, but for the most part it is a very small market, too small to manufacture for economically. The later VW stuff has lots of suppliers due to the VW offroad market and those crazy California bug people.

Barry

[ajpastore]

Yes.

Greg likes the term "establishment", I like the term "FV zombies".

YMMV

Excuse me for a moment fellas.....

Bill, I think someone posted something for sale in the classifieds section without a price.
Why don't you go there to"moderate" and stop the senseless interruptions during this conversation about FV?
Thanks.

[smsazzy]

Yes.

Greg likes the term "establishment", I like the term "FV zombies".

YMMV

Agreed. It is like typical political disagreement. "Anyone who doesn't agree with me is a mindless idiot."

This is uncalled for, unproductive and frankly, unfounded in reality.