FV Disc Brakes

[Amon]

Doug, thanks for the clarification! Now will everyone just go back to their own respective forums and allow us to shape the future of Fv (if possible) without any outside flame throwing. There's not one formula car class that can't use more entrants, so quit worrying about us and concern yourself with the class of car you're currently racing. Positive suggestions are always appreciated but to constantly remind us of the past, make negative future predictions and generally stir up trouble isn't needed nor appreciated by those of us who want to see this class survive and prosper.

Mark

88' Citation # 66
97' Citation
81? Zink Z-18B
82? Zink Z-18B

[veefan]

Not regarding braking, but the quality of parts? Are disk brakes safer compared to drum brakes?

I know you need to regularly crack test both drums and spindles on a FV due to the possibility of failure, is that also true with disk brakes?

While I'm sure it's a good idea to test both, have any of you FST guys seen any failures?


p.s. Doug that was a great post!

[Doug FST 5]

As a long time FV racer I had my share of rear drum cracks. Being a NEDIV guy that's generally blamed on the places where the car was run (Nelson Ledges being an obvious contributor). Nelson was missing from the series only this year. Nobody has managed to crack a disc yet. I haven't done any actual measurements but my sense is that the discs have a thicker cross section between the hub and the wheel studs. They are heavy but strong.

At the rear there have been a few instances of spline wear kind of like we find in FV. That's been pretty limited. I think we only saw that once early on. We only had that happen a couple of times on the FV too.

I've yet to bend one of the ball joint spindles and that's not for the lack of trying . Actually, I don't think I've heard of anyone bending one yet. I also haven't seen any them crack so far. The spindle is a bit larger in diameter which probably helps.

While there are reasons to believe the parts are a bit stronger I'll throw in the caveat that the FST tire is harder than good FV rubber which limits the stress on these parts. I'll also add that the 13" wheel gives us quite a bit more sidewall which I think is reducing the impact of curbing and big bumps.

Doug FST 5

[BLS]

Not a FST guy, but the BJ beam spindles are larger and not prone to cracking. Has nothing to do with it being disc or drum as BJ beams had both. Best I can tell, the original VW discs/caliper used on the FST cars are pretty trouble free as reported by the FST guys.

[gbmetcalf]

With 2 laps to go, before last lap spins and tech shed conflicts, the top 5 were Swanson, Shields, Siebenaler, Streets, and Whitson. Yes that is 3 old Mysterians, a Protoform, and a VDF. Five old cars, well-prepped, with great engines, and great drivers. We could drop those 5 cars and drivers into 1995 and they would probably be the top-5 cars then. The only real difference would be their manifold spec and we would need some diapers for Terran and Andrew.

No one needs to buy $30K cars and buy $12K engines to have fun and success in FV. Smart spending of $8-15K will let you start from scratch and build a top-5 Runoff car that you can then operate for several $K per weekend, of which tires are your most significant operating cost. All you need then is a Roger or Skip to drive it.

I totally agree I have Skips 91 M2 and can't wait to try it out.

G.

[Michael_Clark]

Overall, we have a shared problem FV and FST and formula car racing in general. Until we have clear, measurable, tracked goals such increasing participation through driver recruitment and driver retention then the rest of this mudslinging is just hurting FV, FST, and formula car racing in the SCCA. We need goals and a path - joint shared goals and a clear path that we can go down together. The people who care about keeping formula car racing alive in the SCCA need to work together to make it work long term. Hope it happens, but I can't see it based on my few years of being involved in FV and the SCCA.

This goes back to the point of my post.

Before you can decide on a specific change you want to implement, whether it be disc brakes, tires, or whatever, you must first determine what it is you want to accomplish. Are you trying to increase class participation (either attracting new participants, or retaining previous competitors), relieve a parts shortage, resolve a safety issue, or to simply create closer competition?

The Formula Vee community is among the tightest groups of people I've ever run across. You don't see other race groups getting together on Saturday evenings during race weekends the way the Vee group does. Just ask someone on a race weekend for assistance, and see how many fellow Vee racers come to help. We've all seen drivers give, or you personally have given, a part to a competitor that allowed that competitor to beat them/you in the next race.

If you break it down, and, for instance, the goal is to increase class participation by attracting newer participants, it makes it much easier to decide to give up a little (allowing disc brakes) to ease the difficulty for less experienced participants to adjust brakes, or giving new younger drivers parts they can relate to. As I said, make no mistake, for this purpose we will have to give up a little. It's much like loaning out that needed part.

It's not personal, so don't take it that way. We are all just trying to help the class. Surely, as that tight group, we can agree on what we want (or need) to accomplish first, and then generate a consensus of what we are willing to do to get it there.

[jpetillo]

In the 14+ years we have been around, I have made it my #1 goal to make this place as comfortable and open of a community as is possible on the internet, which is a tremendously difficult thing to do. If you have been on ANY other discussion forums, you know that ApexSpeed is very tightly moderated. Our main policy here is that flame wars and personal attacks are not tolerated at all, in any form. If you can point to any attacks or flame wars here that have not been moderated, then by all means, please point them out to me.

Doug, ApexSpeed is an impressive site. It was true that several folks mentioned to me at a race weekend this year that the petty bickering, etc., on the FV forum seen here was why they were considering other classes. They thought this was indicative of what the FV community is like. They were surprised to see that it was not the case in person. Although the story is true, bickering is not the fault of ApexSpeed, nor a reflection on the management of ApexSpeed in my opinion as you can’t really moderate bickering.

Stan, thanks for pointing out the tiny red square for reporting inappropriate posts.

Doug, I can understand that moderating a site as popular as ApexSpeed is daunting for the small team you described. I do agree that my post did not represent what I feel is appropriate on ApexSpeed, and I have retracted it completely. I apologize for posting it at it was. I seemed to do myself what I was complaining about in the post. I will contact you offline about pointing out what you asked me about. John

[DanW]

Not a FST guy, but the BJ beam spindles are larger and not prone to cracking. Has nothing to do with it being disc or drum as BJ beams had both. Best I can tell, the original VW discs/caliper used on the FST cars are pretty trouble free as reported by the FST guys.

Another data point for the VW discs/caliper- The Zink Z10 uses the VW Type3 rotors and calipers. A set of Porterfield R4 pads is $120 and have lasted me 5 seasons!

A complete conversion kit of spindles, rotors, bearings, calipers is $350.

[problemchild]

Whether you are an outsider, or insider, you can choose different perspectives. While there may be three obsessed "F1" teams out there (Varacins, Weisheit, whatever Harding is building), that is not typical of FV racing.

With 2 laps to go, before last lap spins and tech shed conflicts, the top 5 were Swanson, Shields, Siebenaler, Streets, and Whitson. Yes that is 3 old Mysterians, a Protoform, and a VDF. Five old cars, well-prepped, with great engines, and great drivers. We could drop those 5 cars and drivers into 1995 and they would probably be the top-5 cars then. The only real difference would be their manifold spec and we would need some diapers for Terran and Andrew.

No one needs to buy $30K cars and buy $12K engines to have fun and success in FV. Smart spending of $8-15K will let you start from scratch and build a top-5 Runoff car that you can then operate for several $K per weekend, of which tires are your most significant operating cost. All you need then is a Roger or Skip to drive it.

I wanted to make sure that Stan, Jay, and any outsiders, saw my post from yesterday. Some tire restrictions could reduce costs by 1/3-1/2 but the costs are still reasonable and it is a buyers market. I could supply the "under $15K & top-5" caliber car to a potential buyer, as could a dozen or so others. The FST package will cost about the same to purchase but operating costs are certainly reduced. In my case, that was offset by travel costs.

For those that get outraged by the $30K price tag for a "new" FV, that is the reality of building ANY race car in 2015. There are so many purchased components. Fortunately, lots of great used FV cars and parts to choose from, and as continually pointed out, the difference between new and used in FV is how much paint needs to be removed to repaint it.

Cheers!

Update: Sale pending on the "top-5" car. Still have the $8500 "Good National-Killer Regional" car that I drove at the Last Chance event.

[Johan W]

[QUOTE=Michael_Clark;451228]This goes back to the point of my post.

1. Before you can decide on a specific change you want to implement, whether it be disc brakes, tires, or whatever, you must first determine what it is you want to accomplish. Are you trying to increase class participation

2. The Formula Vee community is among the tightest groups of people I've ever run across.

3. ....ease the difficulty for less experienced participants to adjust brakes, or giving new younger drivers parts they can relate to.

Michael to answer your quotes/questions:

Answer on 1: The goal is to attract new drivers by staying inline with development. Nobody wants to make a fire to boil water anymore(the novelty wears off)...we have the kettle or microwave. Move forward. I lived through change with success. Started as a seventeen year old back in 1976 with aircool vee. Changed to water cooled with gr8 success. It made news in the press and attracted numerous sponsors. It's painfull at first with all the uncertainty.

Answer on 2: Yes it's true all over the world. But it's also a block for the outsider to get into the sport. You feel as if your not welcome at first. I'm going to address this in more detail as a reply on another post.

Answer on 3: This is so TRUE. Me and my dad had huge difficulty to work on the air cool vee in the beginning and had vee mechanics work on the engine and brakes. It's still intimidating to me....thanks Bill Vallis here in Canada. Can mention that the disc brakes on my water cooled vee is just so much easier to work on and to maintain. Way cheaper then drum brakes. Nobody relate to the drum brake system anymore.

[Johan W]

For those that get outraged by the $30K price tag for a "new" FV, that is the reality of building ANY race car in 2015. There are so many purchased components. Fortunately, lots of great used FV cars and parts to choose from, and as continually pointed out, the difference between new and used in FV is how much paint needs to be removed to repaint it.

Cheers!

Update: Sale pending on the "top-5" car. Still have the $8500 "Good National-Killer Regional" car that I drove at the Last Chance event.[/QUOTE]

I know I must adapt to what we have here in Canada, but just to mention....you can have/buy a brand new 2015 Polo engined Vee build for $ 11000(Rhema Vee) or you can buy a raced/used vee that's three years old, only two available...one for $ 5500 and $ 8000. I've built 14 Lagus Vees. Only old and not over the counter is the gearbox and front beam....and the driver. There's no way you can spend more then that unless you line your seat with gold.

[Johan W]

Another data point for the VW discs/caliper- The Zink Z10 uses the VW Type3 rotors and calipers. A set of Porterfield R4 pads is $120 and have lasted me 5 seasons!

A complete conversion kit of spindles, rotors, bearings, calipers is $350.

DanW...I wish the Vee community know how easy it's to change to the disc brake system and the savings on maintenance and cost.

The car is just so much better on braking not doing the break dance. I understand the resistance and uncertainty but lived through change and were pleasantly surprised.

[Johan W]

[QUOTE=Amon;451171]Doug, thanks for the clarification! Now will everyone just go back to their own respective forums and allow us to shape the future of Fv (if possible) without any outside flame throwing. There's not one formula car class that can't use more entrants, so quit worrying about us and concern yourself with the class of car you're currently racing. Positive suggestions are always appreciated but to constantly remind us of the past, make negative future predictions and generally stir up trouble isn't needed nor appreciated by those of us who want to see this class survive and prosper.

Mark

Yes Mark...we need to grow, but how?

I'm racing Vees since 1976 in South Africa. Immigrated to Canada and found the channels into racing here and the US very intimidating and near impossible to get into unless you have someone somewhere who helps you.

After racing more then 210 vee races I found the "soft landing" to be just the opposite. Nowhere a hint here in Canada that it's actually called f1200. I bought a vee that sat stationed in my garage for two years until I found someone that gave me a link to Guy who gave me a number to call in the US.

The SCCA member first wanted me to go to a driving school to prepare me for the realities of North American racing which I refused. The car sat for another year with me going back to SA to race in the 2hr endurance Vee race and one more National race.

I then walked into a mechanic at Canadian Tire that gave me the contact of f1200. I called Harry and he invited me to a race at Mosport. My knowledge sucks on air cool vees. I met Bill Vallis that got me back on track and do the maintenance.

The process once again with the authorities proofed to be a not so nice experience. This time I told them from the get go that I refuse to do driving school and wants to know if I can race with my SA license. They issued a license at last.

This nonsense kept a car and driver out of racing here in North America for three years.

*NOW FOR A NEWBIE....IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. THIS NEED TO CHANGE TO ATTRACT NEW MEMBERS.

My daughter wants to race and raced go karts for many years but don't want to go through all of this. She's now going to join me as partner in the 2hr endurance race at Kyalami.

[Johan W]

It's totally interesting, after I post, I look at the names that are viewing the post, I know most of them and have raced with many of them. I respect a lot them, but they remain silent...

YES, FV...27, I'm captaino slow, I ain't too fast, but I love FV and FST, so why can't we learn from each other and GROW VW racing!

How to grow: see my previous post...in short.

1. STOP THE BS WITH ALLOWING NEWBIES INTO THE SPORT...SEE MY EXPERIENCE.
That said...I'm a newbie in North America but raced more then 210 races in formula vee over three decades on three continents. I found it very difficult to get a license refusing to do the driver school.

2. The other problem is the aging of us all. In Europe and South Africa there's spectators. My entry into motorsport was as a spectator walking the pit lane with my dad. We have none and thus no new members. All from within....kids or family. My suggestion is to take a friend and have days where you have novice only track experience fun track days. We had open days where VW would send their customers to experience a few laps(they would have a draw every month)........ I had the keys to Goldfields race track. They just signed an indemnity form and enjoyed a few laps in one of my Vees. MANY drivers started or got serious after a few laps.

[veefan]

How to grow: see my previous post...in short.

1. STOP THE BS WITH ALLOWING NEWBIES INTO THE SPORT...SEE MY EXPERIENCE.

Who cares, NEWBIES have 50 years left of racing, how many years do you have left, newbies are the future!...

[Matt King]

Who cares, NEWBIES have 50 years left of racing, how many years do you have left, newbies are the future!...

You read it wrong.

[veefan]

How to grow: see my previous post...in short.

1. STOP THE BS WITH ALLOWING NEWBIES INTO THE SPORT...SEE MY EXPERIENCE.
That said...I'm a newbie in North America but raced more then 210 races in formula vee over three decades on three continents. I found it very difficult to get a license refusing to do the driver school.

2. The other problem is the aging of us all. In Europe and South Africa there's spectators. My entry into motorsport was as a spectator walking the pit lane with my dad. We have none and thus no new members. All from within....kids or family. My suggestion is to take a friend and have days where you have novice only track experience fun track days. We had open days where VW would send their customers to experience a few laps(they would have a draw every month)........ I had the keys to Goldfields race track. They just signed an indemnity form and enjoyed a few laps in one of my Vees. MANY drivers started or got serious after a few laps. .

Not really Matt what has this to do with Disk Brakes?

[Matt King]

Not really Matt what has this to do with Disk Brakes?

It has nothing to do with discs, but if you wade through it and try to follow the logic, you will see that he was complaining about the SCCA rules making it too hard for newbies to start racing. You focused on one poorly written and punctuated sentence that did not accurately convey the point he was trying to make in earlier posts.

Near Impossible to start...my experience.

*NOW FOR A NEWBIE....IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. THIS NEED TO CHANGE TO ATTRACT NEW MEMBERS.

[Garry Sharp]

This sounds like a discussion in the day room of a mental institution.

[Johan W]

Who cares, NEWBIES have 50 years left of racing, how many years do you have left, newbies are the future!...

You read the message wrong.......I refered to myself as a Newbie yet I'm racing since 1976. As a Newbie in the North American Formula Vee family of racing I found that it's virtually impossible to get into the sport if you don't have someone or somebody assisting you with entry etc.

Sorry for placing the words wrong...not my first language as I'm Dutch.

ps Hope to race another ten years and in the process to buy a BRD for my son in law to race in the Can-Am series.

[Johan W]

This sounds like a discussion in the day room of a mental institution.

My apology..... but it was part of a tread that's now unraveling into mental disc brake failure.

ps. I'm not advocating change just thought that my input/experience might be interesting to some. Never expected the e-mails that flew off the rack dipped in poison Ivy.

[BLS]

This nonsense kept a car and driver out of racing here in North America for three years.

*NOW FOR A NEWBIE....IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. THIS NEED TO CHANGE TO ATTRACT NEW MEMBERS.

My daughter wants to race and raced go karts for many years but don't want to go through all of this. She's now going to join me as partner in the 2hr endurance race at Kyalami.

I find that attitude to be a problem. The SCCA has a set of rules that have been developed over many years, occasionally modified, that have proven to work well. This includes licensing of new drivers. The SCCA school is less about driving skill and more about getting you prepared for SCCA race weekends on the track, understanding the flags, etc. If just ONE weekend is too much for you or a "newbie" then maybe you're not really interested in the SCCA. I don't want to get on the track with someone who has zero experience and untested to follow the SCCA procedures. In your case, did you join the SCCA and then contact your divisional license administrator to discuss your previous experience? You would likely have been received with open arms...

Just my 2 cents. You get what you pay for.

Barry

[Rolling Stone]

My apology..... but it was part of a tread that's now unraveling into mental disc brake failure.

ps. I'm not advocating change just thought that my input/experience might be interesting to some. Never expected the e-mails that flew off the rack dipped in poison Ivy.

you dont have to aplogise Johan,interesting stuff about S.Africa racing etc,You cant help speaking funny with a dutch accent(Frank)regards to your Wife from me & Bev(Mosport)

[Johan W]

I find that attitude to be a problem. This includes licensing of new drivers. The SCCA school is less about driving skill and more about getting you prepared for SCCA race weekends on the track, understanding the flags, etc. If just ONE weekend is too much for you or a "newbie" then maybe you're not really interested in the SCCA. I don't want to get on the track with someone who has zero experience and untested to follow the SCCA procedures. In your case, did you join the SCCA and then contact your divisional license administrator to discuss your previous experience? You would likely have been received with open arms...

Just my 2 cents. You get what you pay for.

Barry

I would like to give my humble reply without any arrogance or attitude. Just to clear the point you refer to...new driver with zero experience. I raced 210 Vee races on three continents from 1976(photo attached from vee when I was 17) Won champs twice(see photo) Raced 26 Formula Gti(your Indy Lights) races. Raced 12 Modifies saloon races in BMW. Was a test driver for BMW SA testing tyres etc. for one season.Represented my country where Sasol sponsored three of us to race at Elkhart Lake(See photo of Bill and Lisa Noble, myself and the two other South Africans at the 30th Vee anniversary). I was the first Vee driver to won the Victor Laudorum for motorsport.

Must admit my daughter may need some more experience but came third in the Pro Karts, racing the national series for one season and only raced six formula Vee races after that in a water cooled vee.

The point I tried to make was the fact that it was so difficult to get into racing here in North America that I believe many give up eventually. Sorry for filling the tread with no sustance but would like to enjoy my life as happy member of the Canadian Vee family.

I'm in the process of buying a BRD for my son in law that would have to go through driving school(and I fully understand that). Luckily there's help to get him going after my experience. Soon there will be three Vees in my garage.

[Steve Bamford]

[QUOTE=Johan W;451319]

Doug, thanks for the clarification! Now will everyone just go back to their own respective forums and allow us to shape the future of Fv (if possible) without any outside flame throwing. There's not one formula car class that can't use more entrants, so quit worrying about us and concern yourself with the class of car you're currently racing. Positive suggestions are always appreciated but to constantly remind us of the past, make negative future predictions and generally stir up trouble isn't needed nor appreciated by those of us who want to see this class survive and prosper.

Mark

Yes Mark...we need to grow, but how?

I'm racing Vees since 1976 in South Africa. Immigrated to Canada and found the channels into racing here and the US very intimidating and near impossible to get into unless you have someone somewhere who helps you.

After racing more then 210 vee races I found the "soft landing" to be just the opposite. Nowhere a hint here in Canada that it's actually called f1200. I bought a vee that sat stationed in my garage for two years until I found someone that gave me a link to Guy who gave me a number to call in the US.

The SCCA member first wanted me to go to a driving school to prepare me for the realities of North American racing which I refused. The car sat for another year with me going back to SA to race in the 2hr endurance Vee race and one more National race.

I then walked into a mechanic at Canadian Tire that gave me the contact of f1200. I called Harry and he invited me to a race at Mosport. My knowledge sucks on air cool vees. I met Bill Vallis that got me back on track and do the maintenance.

The process once again with the authorities proofed to be a not so nice experience. This time I told them from the get go that I refuse to do driving school and wants to know if I can race with my SA license. They issued a license at last.

This nonsense kept a car and driver out of racing here in North America for three years.

*NOW FOR A NEWBIE....IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. THIS NEED TO CHANGE TO ATTRACT NEW MEMBERS.

My daughter wants to race and raced go karts for many years but don't want to go through all of this. She's now going to join me as partner in the 2hr endurance race at Kyalami.

I thought this was supposed to be a thread about disc brakes?

Stop with all the nonsense about how hard it is to get info & how hard it is here to get into the sport. Have you heard of something called Google? Google Formula Vee Ontario & see what shows up. It would have taken you all of two or three seconds to get info to get on track here in Canada, not the 2-3 years you said your car sat.

As for not willing to go to a license school here or in the US for a weekend, that would have given you tons of knowledge about racing locally as well, not just learning to drive. You, yourself sat out because of you decided not to follow simple steps...do not blame SCCA or CASC racing for that.

Also if you have a FIA international license then it is usually recognized so do you not have one of those???

[BLS]

The point I tried to make was the fact that it was so difficult to get into racing here in North America that I believe many give up eventually.

The point I made was it is not difficult at all. 1. join the SCCA. 2. Go to a single weekend drivers school. 3. done

There are a lot of things difficult about getting into racing, but getting a license is not one of them.

Had you joined the SCCA and talked with the divisional licensing rep, you would likely been issued a license without the school.

[Amon]

Barry,

Good to finally meet you at Road Atlanta. To add to your post, I believe Ray Carmody
stated that you can run a Friday open test day and if you've shown enough speed, driver awareness of other cars (mirrors), sometimes you'll be permitted to race I assume with a Novice permit. There are steps you must take, but if you're not willing to do so, then look in the mirror for the person responsible. Now back to the original
topic as Bam Bam has suggested.

Mark

88' Citation 002'

[BLS]

Hi Mark, it was great meeting you and Brian and racing on the same track. Maybe someday I'll get up to your speed

I think you are correct about the test day for the most part. I was offered that scenario by our div license rep based upon my driving experience from 35 years ago, but chose to go the normal route figuring the track time of a school was worth the effort. Of course, had I known that my school would consist entirely of rain, sleet, and snow sessions I *might* have reconsidered...

Hope to see you again soon,
Barry

[Amon]

Barry,

You've done well for your first year back after being away for years. As you know, you're not going to be as fast as Steven Davis immediately, as he has 40 yrs. exper.
on you and has his car and himself fine tuned for racing. But as you mentioned, after
making some camber changes and adding better tires, you're getting more comfortable in the car and can push it more. The main thing you've found is the need
to have confidence in the car, and once you've done so, the speed will come with fine tuning of the car and relearning your racecraft. Again, it was good to meet you and don't hesitate to reach out to Citation drivers. Also consider speaking to Bob Lybarger as he raced Citations many years, and is a wealth of information on set-up etc....

Mark

88' Citation 002'

[BLS]

Thanks Mark,

I'll keep working...

Barry

[dc]

So the white noise and thread drift have completely moved away from this topic. If you guys want to discuss the merits of disc brake upgrades on a FV at any point in time again, please feel free to start another thread. This one is done.