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  1. #41
    Senior Member gcoffin's Avatar
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    Bill

    Crude was a poor choice of words. Basically F=MA translates to F/M=A. We know F at any given rpm for both power plants, and we can calculate the M for either power plant to give the equivalent A. From this we can determine a starting point for a weight adjustment.

    Power lose estimates are important to consider because in our model they are a constant, not a variable. Simply put a 10 HP difference at the wheels is a greater percentage of available power than a 10hp difference at the crank and as such requires a slightly large mass adjustment.

  2. #42
    Senior Member gcoffin's Avatar
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    Good one John lol, but that beast is not running in our group.

    What we are seeing on video is that if a pinto and a ztec are running side by side as soon as they shift gears and the rpms drop the ztec pulls ahead.......just like in the cartoons.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoffin View Post
    Power lose estimates are important to consider because in our model they are a constant, not a variable. Simply put a 10 HP difference at the wheels is a greater percentage of available power than a 10hp difference at the crank and as such requires a slightly large mass adjustment.
    True, but drive train efficiency is usually measured as a percentage loss between the flywheel and ground and therefore the percentage difference will be constant. With the same gearbox the loss will be equivalent.

  4. #44
    Senior Member ccoffin's Avatar
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    Sorry, crude is a poor choice of words. Robust is what I was going for.

  5. #45
    Senior Member ccoffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John LaRue View Post
    Wonder what this would do to the experiment?

    Anybody know where that engine wound up at?

    The model uses a very good pinto compared to what is supposedly an average zetec ran on the same dyno, albeit on different days.

    There are two pintos in the area that are known to have better numbers than the one from the model, but both were ran on a different dyno, so the comparison is difficult to make.

    For the on track testing, the best pinto in the area will be used as the baseline.

  6. #46
    Senior Member John LaRue's Avatar
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    Good one John lol, but that beast is not running in our group
    .

    Anybody know where that engine wound up at?


    just teasin'

  7. #47
    Contributing Member rickb99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccoffin View Post
    Anybody know where that engine wound up at?....
    Another factor. That engine was driven by an EXCEPTIONAL driver.
    CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.

  8. #48
    Senior Member John LaRue's Avatar
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    Another factor. That engine was driven by an EXCEPTIONAL driver.
    Without question, but are you looking to equalize power (and if so then which Pinto will you or should you choose?) OR handicapping the various packages (cars, engines, drivers, aero...)

    There was a track that I used to race at when I was karting and they tossed away the rule book and simply ran ET brackets... it made for great racing amongst a diverse group of engines, karts and drivers. It's all about what you are looking for.

  9. #49
    Grand Pooh Bah Purple Frog's Avatar
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    I spoke last week with two prominent engine builders. One in Wisconsin, one in Maryland.
    Both said that a pinto such as Niki's (in ad above post) was about 3 hp less than a top dog modern blueprinted Zetec.
    Both engine builders agreed that if compression ration was bumped to 11/1 on the pinto, the two would be about dead nuts even.

    Any rule change will be based on the best pinto that can be built within the rules... not an average.

    There has been some discussion about not going too strong with pinto upgrades because the pinto is better on the top end, if it gets too much better it is thought that a pinto in a DB6 with proper pilot would be the killer combo at Daytona Runoffs in 2015.


  10. #50
    Senior Member ccoffin's Avatar
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    Is there any data on what 11/1 does to engine longevity? And is there a chance this gets passed for next year?

    John~we are looking to equalize power. The only comparable data we have from the same dyno happens to be from a pinto that peaks at 150.8 and a zetec that peaks at 151, however due to the nature of the curves the zetec is at about a 40 lb +-5lb average advantage over what we assume to be the usable rpm range at Spokane, pacific, and Portland (similar gearing,style of tracks, that are the most often raced in the area and currently have the most data currently available) in terms of hp/weight.

    Now when it comes to measuring this theory at the track, we will measure the best pinto (an Ivey, and thus has no zetec dyno to compare too) in the area against a quiksilver zetec that is currently one weekend from fresh (I have not seen the dyno sheet on this car yet). The chassis are nearly identical and the set up should be nearly identical as well (although one car has penske's and the other has ohlin's). Same driver on nearly back to back runs (30 min delay in between). Adding weight to the zetec after baseline, probably in about 20 lb increments. Procedure for test has not been finalized, and input is accepted. Should also add that multiple drivers in multiple cars is also being discussed but can not take place logistically until the test and tune at Spokane next year.

    Trying to be as transparent as possible without giving away some information I have been sworn to secrecy on.

    As to bracket racing, and as a side note,we have done something like that the last 3 or 4 years at Spokane as a special race. It works out pretty well, but still has some kinks to work out.

  11. #51
    Senior Member gcoffin's Avatar
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    i am guessing it will be even simpler than back to back. We are only trying to gage the time difference weight makes on the ztec so we will baseline the ztec.....warm it up, 5 laps, weigh it, add fuel, add weight, repeat. What we need to measure is the effect of adding weight to the ztec.

    We can do it on a couple different cars, the goal is to determine the effect the weight has. We are trying to equalize lap times not performance characteristics.

    The difference in the kurtosis of the dyno curves pretty much dictates the difference in performance, the weight merely shifts the relative position of the curves on the y axis. Track mapping on the z axis would define an irregular surface that would represent a.........blah blah blah blah.....yes I see algorithms

  12. #52
    Senior Member gcoffin's Avatar
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    Frog......and a DB-6 winning at Daytona would be a bad thing?

  13. #53
    Senior Member ccoffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gcoffin View Post

    The difference in the kurtosis of the dyno curves pretty much dictates the difference in performance, the weight merely shifts the relative position of the curves on the y axis. Track mapping on the z axis would define an irregular surface that would represent a.........blah blah blah blah.....yes I see algorithms

    Kurtosis sounds like a dirty word. Second, I don't think your z axis matters since it's relative between subscript z and p anyway in this instablah blah blah.... I'll see you this weekend. And we can use big math words so we sound smarter than we really are amongst ourselves. New name idea for side of the car, leptokurtic on one and platykurtic on the other. You figure out which is which mr kurtosis.

  14. #54
    Senior Member gcoffin's Avatar
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    As in do these jeans make my ____ look leptokurtic, or platykurtic ?

    How many times have we heard that.........

  15. #55
    Classifieds Super License HayesCages's Avatar
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    Italians use the Destro/Sinestro excess curve; left side would be platykuric as it implies a sinister or evil side of things.

    Forgot the stickers yesterday, I'll bring them by next week.

    Adding weight to the Zetec seems to be a pretty simple solution...you can pour lead almost anywhere. I have a couple 1# vials of mercury as well....is "adjustable" ballast legal?
    Lawrence Hayes
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  16. #56
    Contributing Member rickb99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HayesCages View Post
    ..... I have a couple 1# vials of mercury as well....
    I used to have about 5 pound bottle of Mercury out of the gyro stabilizing system for the 5" gun mounts and gun director aboard my destroyer. But, considering how hazardous it is, got rid of it years ago. It was fun to play with though.
    Last edited by rickb99; 08.31.14 at 2:18 AM.
    CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.

  17. #57
    Classifieds Super License HayesCages's Avatar
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    I called a recycler a few years ago to see if they would take it. They couldn't get off the phone fast enough.
    It just sets here...safely out of harms way next to lead ore samples I've collected.

    Pintos rule.
    Lawrence Hayes
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  18. #58
    Senior Member gcoffin's Avatar
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    Pretty sure I left all my uranium and arsenic bearing rock samples at the old house in the rock garden ....... But I might be able to find something.....pretty sure I still have a bit of cinnabar (Hg).....it is right next to the asbestos

  19. #59
    Grand Pooh Bah Purple Frog's Avatar
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    About 8 years ago I found a quart bottle of mercury in a barn I bought.
    Shortly there was a recycling "amnesty" day in the county I live in.
    So I drove down with the bottle on the truck seat. As soon as I said what I had it was like I announced I had the ebola virus. They made me stop in place while a group put on hax-mat suits.
    You would have thought I had an armed nuclear device.


  20. #60
    Contributing Member rickb99's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Purple Frog;443559] About 8 years ago I found a quart bottle of mercury in a barn I bought. Shortly there was a recycling "amnesty" day in the county I live in. So I drove down with the bottle on the truck seat. As soon as I said what I had it was like I announced I had the ebola virus. They made me stop in place while a group put on hax-mat suits. You would have thought I had an armed nuclear device.[/QUOTE]

    LOL and to think, I used to pour some out of the bottles on to a piece of cardboard on top of the gyro stabilizer and play with it in my fingers. Still here at 71 and no evidence of Mercury poisoning.
    Last edited by rickb99; 09.01.14 at 4:28 PM.
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  21. #61
    Senior Member ccoffin's Avatar
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    I'm not sharing my mercury story publicly.

    Michael Lensen (pinto) and roger smetaniuk (zetec) finally got a dry session today at mission. Report from the track says they were dead even until Roger's brakes went south. Best times were within 0.016 sec of each other. Zetec was 35 lbs heavier than pinto. I will let them give a better summary when they get a chance. There are absolutely no controls on this, but 40+-5 lbs seems to be about right in every on track comparison we have seen this year so far.

  22. #62
    Contributing Member rickb99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccoffin View Post
    ....Michael Lensen (pinto) and roger smetaniuk (zetec) finally got a dry session today at mission.....
    I, sadly do not know Roger. But, Michael is a talented Piloti of FC's. I hope Roger is a good match otherwise the data is skewed to favor the Pinto.

    Probably get more accurate data by having Roger and Michael trade cars half way through the day.
    CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.

  23. #63
    Senior Member ccoffin's Avatar
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    Agreed rick. This is not the experiment though, just observable information being reported. This morning in quali roger out qualified lensen by .7 sec. I so not know the tale behind that, but following on race monitor their quali laps seems fairly even for the most part.

  24. #64
    Contributing Member rickb99's Avatar
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    Question, are these cars both Van Diemen's from the same 'specification' era?

    P.S.
    Despite the questions, I'm fully behind your plan here.
    CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.

  25. #65
    Senior Member ccoffin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb99 View Post
    Question, are these cars both Van Diemen's from the same 'specification' era?

    P.S.
    Despite the questions, I'm fully behind your plan here.
    Of course not metaphorically we are comparing navel's and Valencia's. The zetec at mission was a Mygale and the pinto was a VD. But this was just an observation of two good drivers with well prepared cars who just so happened to have a weight difference that was in the range of what we are looking for.

    Now when it comes to actually testing it out, the zetec will be a mygale and the reference pinto will also be a mygale. aero will be equal, as will unsprung weight. And a myriad of other things. Near as I can tell, the only difference will be that the zetec will have penske's and the pinto has ohlin's, but by the time the test is run the zetec may have ohlin's too.

    We also have some idea as to what this will do as we actually had to add 50 lbs to our swift db3 two years ago for the renter to make weight. Then took it the car out for a test to make sure all was right with the car. Difference between ~1200 lb and ~1250 in terms of on track was roughly .75 sec/mile. Also, roughly resembling what we are shooting for with our adjustments.

  26. #66
    Senior Member RSS's Avatar
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    We seemed pretty close on the race track with me carrying the 35/40lbs I need to change my gearing some more for Mission and trim some front wing and maybe learn turn 9.

    Michael did get down to a 1:28.3 on the Monday race after i had retired with clutch/gearbox issues.

    Roger

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    Was Michael driving my old RF97?

    That car was very well sorted and spent a lot of time at Mission as well (not to take anything away from Michael!).

    Sorry I missed you guys!
    Cheers
    Miles

  28. #68
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    Yes he was driving the 97.

    Here is the video of the Sunday race.

    http://youtu.be/GPjn1nEYwrA

  29. #69
    Classifieds Super License HayesCages's Avatar
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    Re. the video: Zetec/Pinto/Kent parity...
    Last edited by HayesCages; 09.05.14 at 2:26 PM. Reason: Added Zetec
    Lawrence Hayes
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  30. #70
    Contributing Member rickb99's Avatar
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    WOW! Very interesting watching the Zetec clearly out pull the Pinto on the straights! And it looked like they were a match in the corners. I suspect at Seattle or Portland on the longer straights the Zetec would have a big advantage.

    What I think you need to focus on though is 'equalizing' that FF that got between you two at the beginning. Wings? I don't need no stinking wings to be fast ...
    CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.

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    Senior Member RSS's Avatar
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    You should have seen Alan(FF) in the rain he had us by 4 seconds it was ridiculous!

  32. #72
    Senior Member John LaRue's Avatar
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    I was struck by the fact that the stickers on the rear tires of the red car were still intact 4 or 5 laps into the race.

  33. #73
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    I was more shocked by the fact that he seems to be able to find sticker Goodyears still!

  34. #74
    Contributing Member rickb99's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by John LaRue View Post
    I was struck by the fact that the stickers on the rear tires of the red car were still intact 4 or 5 laps into the race.
    Michael Lensen is a pretty smooth driver (red car).
    CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.

  35. #75
    Senior Member Michael Lensen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RSS View Post
    We seemed pretty close on the race track with me carrying the 35/40lbs I need to change my gearing some more for Mission and trim some front wing and maybe learn turn 9.

    Michael did get down to a 1:28.3 on the Monday race after i had retired with clutch/gearbox issues.

    Roger
    Actually I got down to a 1.08.3, which was 1/10 off the FC track record, had I known that I would have pushed harder. There will be a next time.

    Roger and I shared some very nice racing, I was amazed about the torque the Zetec has coming out of a corner, though to beat. Considering he had never driven Mission before he did very well.

    Those stickers worked really well, can't tell where I got those. Thanks Seller.

    Miles: yes that is the car I bought from you. Works pretty well I think.

    Rick: thanks for the compliments Bud.

    Michael Lensen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Lensen View Post
    Actually I got down to a 1.08.3, which was 1/10 off the FC track record, had I known that I would have pushed harder. There will be a next time.

    Roger and I shared some very nice racing, I was amazed about the torque the Zetec has coming out of a corner, though to beat. Considering he had never driven Mission before he did very well.

    Those stickers worked really well, can't tell where I got those. Thanks Seller.

    Miles: yes that is the car I bought from you. Works pretty well I think.

    Rick: thanks for the compliments Bud.

    Michael Lensen
    Only a tenth off the record?

    I guess you're fully recovered, Michael.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rickb99 View Post
    What I think you need to focus on though is 'equalizing' that FF that got between you two at the beginning. Wings? I don't need no stinking wings to be fast ...

  38. #78
    Contributing Member NPalacioM3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HayesCages View Post
    Re. the video: Zetec/Pinto/Kent parity...
    LOL, my thoughts exactly.
    -Nick

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    Frog,
    Please direct that comment to two DB-6 drivers in the SE with extensive experience at Daytona. Both are currently inactive.

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    Default Kent/Fit Test

    So when is the Kent/Fit test? It was promised when approved that it would be revisited with adjustments made but I've not seen any dyno figures or on-track tests for adjustments.

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