Why us?

[KAMcDonald]

we have done FE/FM in 2011 with 28 cars and 2012 with 26. that grouping this year will make for a larger group, 29 right now, vs FE/F5 at 23, but I think that the lap times/weight of FE/FM would make for a safer race, especially since we are talking about race only and not messing with the qualifying groupings as well.

I am by no means a front runner, in most cases not even a mid pack racer.... more like the perennial back marker. i am here to race and have fun doing so. We were hard pressed to make the minimum count with only about 20 qualified to begin with, so with a car count of 11, if we get grouped, so be it, i can take it.... really i can..... and knowing i am slow, i always try to watch my mirrors and let the hot shoes get past without holding them up, no matter what class they are.

keith

[AlecksonRacing]

so you're proposing that on top of qualifying in a group of almost 60 cars, we then have to have a combined race? The way the schedule was done previously was perfectly fine. The classes that stand to lose the most in a ridiculously large qualifying should be rewarded with standalone races.

Otherwise the qualifying class combo's have to change.

[cory mcleod]

I do not remember what the original time slots were for F5 or FM, so they may be back in their original slots.

The original schedule had F500 racing on Saturday afternoon.

[Dennis Valet]

I think the moral of the story is that the runoffs are a headache.

[La Scuderia Raggi]

I agree with Dennis, be careful what you wish for.

[Jeff Read]

Just for the record, I sent my email to Terry Ozmet and said that I don't mind racing with F5 as long as all 3 of our qualifying sessions are just with them and not with FM and FC.

[clint]

I don't care who we race with and I'm in F5. I've raced with all of the proposed classes before and didn't mind a bit. I'm fine with FE/F5 combo. I don't think that FF should be combined with anyone simply due to their car count. I understand and hear Ed loud and clear on this. I hate to see him withdraw for any reason. Personally I would like to see us with FE if we have to be combined with anyone. I don't want to see even one F5 not be able to make it due to a change in the schedule. Our class is small enough already.....key phrase "small enough already" meaning we nor the group we may be combined with should mind if we are in fact combined for the race. Again, I don't think that class should be FF.

[John LaRue]

I understand that a decision to change the schedule has been made after consideration of the feedback and input of those in F5/FE/FF/FM. I would imagine that this will make some happy and some not so happy; it does however show that some of the folk at SCCA are listening and trying to do the right thing. I applaud the effort!

John

[SV@RHC]

Yup, looks like F5 will race on Sunday and FE will be combined with FM for the race.

[ste]

Depends on your perspective - based on what I've read here, this will force at least one F500 driver to withdraw, I suspect there are others with flight plans on Saturday or Sunday as well. This seems really unfair to them, and now there are actual victims of the decisions, not just people that are unhappy like before the most recent change.

Since the complaints were coming from the FF group, why didn't they get moved to Sunday?



Steve

[John LaRue]

You know it is the old saying that you are damned if you do and damned if you don't; you can't make everyone happy.

[ste]

I couldn't agree more John - previously we had people that were unhappy.

Now, potentially we have people that are excluded. Which is worse?

Hopefully it all works out for everyone.

Steve

[Modo]

Formula Ford should be running alone .......... yea gettn pisssd.......where are u from??????? ......

[efoxfield]

It is unfortunate F5 had to move ahead to Sunday. At least they have their own race. Let's hope it all works out.
Ed

[cory mcleod]

Depends on your perspective - based on what I've read here, this will force at least one F500 driver to withdraw

That would be me. Just withdrew. Very disappointed, but can't be too upset because I initially petitioned Terry to give F500 back their own race. The earlier post in this thread is spot on: be careful what you wish for.

I don't fault the SCCA for making the best decision they could at this point, but I don't understand why they ever thought it was a good idea to combine anyone with FF (27 entries alone). I can't remember the entire original schedule, but I believe they could have avoided this whole mess by just combining the 2 smallest formula car classes (FE, F500) into one of our original spots on Sat and moving one of the other classes from Sun to Sat. I know that would not have made everyone happy, but no class's race would have been moved to a later day.

Oh well, hindsight is 20/20. Time to start preparing for Daytona.

Cory

[swiftdrivr]

Looks to me like SCCA is more concerned with protecting FE than with rational groupings. I have raced with the F5 guys, and I like them. I miss Hank and Bruno, and Clint is way fast, good racer, and I'm cheering for him. Unfortunately, that doesn't mean Clint is easy to see in my mirrors. [Not that Clint is behind me much, but he isn't the only F5 out there] I don't know what group would be safer to put with the F5s, and that may be the real point that needs to be considered, but unless there is a safety issue over-riding the alternate groupings that outweighs FF /f5 risks, this looks ill considered and political.

OOPs! I missed page 2 and 3, so it looks like things got changed. I hope it worked out well, but the tone of the last few posts suggest it didn't

[GAC]

They do not have room to change the qualifying groupings to have FE and F5 qualify together, and they felt it was a bigger problem to have them race together without qualifying together than to give F5 its own race on Sunday and race FE and FM together. It does not look like there are any politics involved. The shorter daily running times and number of classes have caused compromises to be made, and this is one of them. FYI, FF is up to 29 entries as of this morning. That total would be five more than we had last year at Road America.

[SStadel]

Jim, Since you have an edit button perhaps you should edit out your first sentence. Read my lips - SCCA gives NO preferential treatment to FE. I live and breathe FE and I can guarantee you there is no preferential treatment. FF got its own race, FE was put with another class, AGAIN. And that is fine. Yes FE and F5 should have been together, but the schedule didn't allow for it.

[David Locke]

Jim, Since you have an edit button perhaps you should edit out your first sentence. Read my lips - SCCA gives NO preferential treatment to FE. I live and breathe FE and I can guarantee you there is no preferential treatment. FF got its own race, FE was put with another class, AGAIN. And that is fine. Yes FE and F5 should have been together, but the schedule didn't allow for it.

I don't know you, Steve, and I realize your comments aren't directed to me, but it's a little troubling personally to see a forum member admonishing another member to use the edit button to revise a post based on his say-so. If nothing else, a person is entitled to draw his own conclusion/hold his own opinion even if I find his conclusion/opinion contrary to my own experience and understanding. Sorry, but that's my view.

[Josh Pitt]

I don't know you, Steve, and I realize your comments aren't directed to me, but it's a little troubling personally to see a forum member admonishing another member to use the edit button to revise a post based on his say-so. If nothing else, a person is entitled to draw his own conclusion/hold his own opinion even if I find his conclusion/opinion contrary to my own experience and understanding. Sorry, but that's my view.

I learned a long time ago to always consider the source when something is communicated.
I too got admonished by Mr. Stadel earlier in the thread for also stating what it looked like to the normal observer.

the fact that Mr Stadel makes a living supporting the FE class must be the reason why the defensive response.
its all good.

[marshall9]

I learned a long time ago to always consider the source when something is communicated.
I too got admonished by Mr. Stadel earlier in the thread for also stating what it looked like to the normal observer.

the fact that Mr Stadel makes a living supporting the FE class must be the reason why the defensive response.
its all good.

.

[David Locke]

Josh,
Not only do you not have a dog in this hunt, you don't even have a dog. Let the guys that are racing decide what they want. Some of us that actually race in other racing series are considering what SCCA does, so we can come back. You post your opinions in many threads about how you want things, but even if you get your way, what then? When things are the way you want them, are you then going to buy a car and come out?

Rather condescending, isn't it? I haven't seen a forum rule on ApexSpeed saying that only people who own a car are entitled to post. Is this a new rule? Or just your rule?

[marshall9]

Rather condescending, isn't it? I haven't seen a forum rule on ApexSpeed saying that only people who own a car are entitled to post. Is this a new rule? Or just your rule?

Ok, David
Deleted.
I don't make the rules here. I wasn't saying he didn't have the right to post. Never mind my saying that the racer's opinions had more weight than the non racer's opinions regarding the decisions about what happens on track. You are right, everyone needs to be happy. A guy that doesn't race should have an equal vote on everything.

Condescending is a recent term used by liberals to describe people that confuse their arguments with facts.

I, in no way, meant to belittle Josh, or imply that his opinion doesn't matter. I meant to say that those with race cars should be the ones to decide where they race them. I want Josh to come and race with US again. You, maybe not so much. You are too politically correct to be invited. My impression is that you want everyone to have a first place trophy for showing up

[SStadel]

David, by his post I took it that he posted, then went back and read the rest of the thread and then edited his post saying, "Oops I missed pages 2 and 3". Having then read pages 2 and 3, had it been me I would have retracted the first line as it was obvious SCCA wasn't treating FE special. That's all. Sorry if it sounded bad.

If you look at one of my other posts I sent a note to Terry Ozment saying that I thought FE should be combined, but with F5. That was hardly asking for a favor.

Josh, yes I am a CSR for FE, but making a living doing it?! Lets just say I have other businesses that keep the doors open. And I will continue to admonish anyone that thinks FE gets preferential treatment. It is just not true. You and David can believe what you want, but when you put it in print I will protest it.

[Josh Pitt]

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61126

so marshall,
I guess you sold your dog also.
maybe you should not refer to yourself as "us( guys who have cars and race)" when you actually have no car yourself.

Marshall, I have a current scca national license, do you have an scca membership of anykind?

just wow,

LOL

stadel, as I said were good.

[marshall9]

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=61126

so marshall,
I guess you sold your dog also.
maybe you should not refer to yourself as "us( guys who have cars and race)" when you actually have no car yourself.

Marshall, I have a current scca national license, do you have an scca membership of anykind?

just wow,

LOL

stadel, as I said were good.

Josh,
You know I luv u.
Let's go racing ! Actually, I did sell my FF, but have a couple of neglected chassis' in my hopechest

[David Locke]

Ok, David
Deleted.
I don't make the rules here. I wasn't saying he didn't have the right to post. Never mind my saying that the racer's opinions had more weight than the non racer's opinions regarding the decisions about what happens on track. You are right, everyone needs to be happy. A guy that doesn't race should have an equal vote on everything.

Condescending is a recent term used by liberals to describe people that confuse their arguments with facts.

I, in no way, meant to belittle Josh, or imply that his opinion doesn't matter. I meant to say that those with race cars should be the ones to decide where they race them. I want Josh to come and race with US again. You, maybe not so much. You are too politically correct to be invited. My impression is that you want everyone to have a first place trophy for showing up

Finished with your ad hominem attacks, Marshall? Yes, I have a car that I race where and when I want, but you're very confused if you think I'm looking for an invitation to race with you ("again," as you say). By the way, there is nothing "recent" about the term condescending, and "liberal" or "too politically correct" are the last things on earth anyone who knows me would call me. And, how you would get the notion from anything I said that I "want everyone to have a first place trophy for showing up" is beyond comprehension. You're just pissed that someone called you on your unwarranted attack on Josh.

[marshall9]

Finished with your ad hominem attacks, Marshall? Yes, I have a car that I race where and when I want, but you're very confused if you think I'm looking for an invitation to race with you ("again," as you say). By the way, there is nothing "recent" about the term condescending, and "liberal" or "too politically correct" are the last things on earth anyone who knows me would call me. And, how you would get the notion from anything I said that I "want everyone to have a first place trophy for showing up" is beyond comprehension. You're just pissed that someone called you on your unwarranted attack on Josh.

You're right David.
I'm sorry. You got me. I'm busted. I'm just mad that you called me on my unwarranted attack on Josh. You're not liberal. Kumbaya

[swiftdrivr]

SStadel: It looks to me, and to others apparently, that the obvious choice was to combine FE with another small class, but SCCA chose not to, and that looks political, not rational. You may disagree, as is your right, but it appears your affiliation could cause some bias. I am not coming [way too slow, even if I had the time and dollars] but I am an FF guy, so maybe I am biased too, but that is my opinion, and I have the right to post it. Sorry if it upset you, as I didn't wish that result. However, if we can only post agreements, this would be a really boring and useless site. I hope your guys do well and everyone has a good time, and just wish I could be there racing too. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the weather stays "California style," and Speedcast gets all the action, cause that's where I'll be watching.

[GAC]

FE has been combined with FM, another small class. FE does not have its own race any more. SCCA did make the change.

[KAMcDonald]

and I guess it was political that they did not combine
GT-1 with 12 entries
AS with 13
F500 with 11

oh wait, they did combine F5, with FF, probably since they normally run together in the same group all year long...

granted, the numbers for FF are higher, but, FE has been grouped with FM twice in the last 5 years.... so it looks like the politics are backing a lame duck.

numbers were not there, I have no complaints about being with the FM's again, but not being a front runner, well, makes not much difference for me....

I guess from your perspective, it is ok to combine classes into a single group as long as it is not yours.

I still say going to 50 minutes between races instead of an hour would have solved this whole issue by getting in one more race per day....

[jim murphy]

The sounds of tractor engines and weed eaters go together. Its like the lawn maintenance crew will be out having fun.


:: sorry, I have nothing constructive to add to the discussion, but couldn't resist.

Someone may have already posted but some random thoughts . . . 10" slicks that cost $160 versus 13" slicks at $250+ . . . . .there are now 600cc motorcycle drivetrains in about five of the F5 entries and they sure do sound like FORMULA ONE CARS at 15,000rpm - double overhead cams, 4 valves/cylinder, electronic fuel injection, six speed sequential transmission, paddle shifters and on and on . . . - that you can buy the drivetrain (motor AND transmission, etc.) at $1,000 or less, delivered. I would now call F500 the new budget formula car entry level class in SCCA. And we have rubber puck suspensions with multiplying rocker arms that also act as friction dampeners which have proven to very effective without costing THOUSANDS for coil over shocks which require rebuilding at more $.

Jim

Been messing with F4/5/6 since 1982 because FF's costs were going out of sight even way back then.