Just out of curiosity, how much does a TOP OF THE LINE FVEE motor cost nowadays?
I saw one that was advertised for $11K for a long block.
Just out of curiosity, how much does a TOP OF THE LINE FVEE motor cost nowadays?
I saw one that was advertised for $11K for a long block.
Thanks ... Jay Novak
313-445-4047
On my 54th year as an SCCA member
with a special thanks to every SCCA worker (NONE OF US WOULD RACE WITHOUT THE WORKERS)
Adjusted for inflation, less than one cost in 1975, by far.Just out of curiosity, how much does a TOP OF THE LINE FVEE motor cost nowadays?
There is a wide range of pricing, more to do with the overhead of the shop it's from, than the quality. I have two fresh "monsters" in my shop as long blocks for $6500 and cannot sell them. Been sitting for two years now.Originally Posted by Jnovak
I expect that the number of FV engines that get sold any year for more than $5K would be a single digit value.
Last edited by problemchild; 10.28.14 at 8:09 PM.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
Spec Miata will be saying the same thing in a few years.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Matt,
Spec Miata is costing +$30K if you want to run near the front...
Mark
So does a Vee, but cost wasn't really the point. Today, SM has the kind of big numbers FV once enjoyed. These things are cyclical.Matt,
Spec Miata is costing +$30K if you want to run near the front...
Mark
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Is FV any cheaper?Spec Miata is costing +$30K if you want to run near the front...
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
NO
butch deer
People are sheep.
“Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan
B.S!! Other than the Vortech, which can be purchased used for $20K, what Vee cost that much??
I'm so damn tired of reading non-formula fee owners / drivers continuing to put down our class! Go back to your own class and let us worry about FV.... No class is perfect and we certainly argue amongst ourselves, but we care about FV and that's why we're so passionate about it. So if you're just posting to stir the pot, do it elsewhere because I'm fed up with the negative comments about how the sky is falling!!!
Why don't you graph numer of classes offered to see how much the increased offerings affected FV. I don't have a clue on how it would look other then more classes has to have diluted the numbers some how.Why? Because it has worked so well to maintain FV National participation in recent years...oh wait.
Steve Bamford
You right! Using the old adage that a used pointy-end race car sells for HALF the cost of replicating it, to run up front now costs $40k...NOT $30k, as was earlier suggested. My bad.
Stan Clayton
Stohr Cars
Amen Amon
I'd bet this one would cost that much and a whole lot more.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
As it is in any other class, it all depends upon how much work/effort/skill you put in and how much you have to purchase.
IMO, FV has always had both types, the homebrew guy and the guy that mostly just drives. Both are successful.
I do believe a skilled person can manage a decent FV run for significantly less than any other class, and for way less than 30K.
YMMV
Stan,You right! Using the old adage that a used pointy-end race car sells for HALF the cost of replicating it, to run up front now costs $40k...NOT $30k, as was earlier suggested. My bad.
You are confusing the issue needlessly. It does NOT cost that much for a 'current competitor' to run at the front. If, OTOH, you want to drop in from off planet -- and have a wad of cash -- and you demand to run UP FRONT instantly, it might be more likely that you could do that by spending that amount of money initially.
If you want to see what CAN be done, take a look at Laura Hayes. Last year she bought a USED FV for < $8K (I really don't know how much .. but am sure it was less than that .. probably a good bit less) and after 3 or 4 weeks of fitting it to herself, she went to PBIR and put it on the pole in her FIRST RACE IN FV. She finished 2nd in that race .. a couple car lengths back. In her SECOND race weekend, she WON (both were MAJORS events!) at Road Atlanta and also set a new lap record. I'll bet she would sell you her car for $40k right now - but the talent to drive it would be YOUR responsibility.
I've seen several similar cars @ similar cost in the last 3 years that the right talent could have been running at the front right way.
Thing is .. it's not EASY to run at the front in FV no matter WHAT car you have (you may already realize that since you have one).
Steve, FV80
Racing since '73 - FV since '77
Bill,
And how many of those are around??? ONE which Mike built for himself so it's
hardly a fair sample of the cars available....So again I ask you , which FV's that
have been massed produced, ( more than 1 or 2 built), cost $30K???
Vortech!
Build a Vortech from scratch...Bill,
And how many of those are around??? ONE which Mike built for himself so it's
hardly a fair sample of the cars available....So again I ask you , which FV's that
have been massed produced, ( more than 1 or 2 built), cost $30K???
3rd most run car in the 2014 runoffs... not sure whats quals as mass produced...
+/- Bill is spot on from an accountants point of view.
Vortech kit $10,000
Autowerks House motor $7,500
needle bearing beam $1,200
VSR stort transaxle to the drums $1,200
brake shoes $200
VSR Long box to the drums $1,200
brake shoes $200
digital dash all senders $1,800
fire system $500
rims $200
tires $600
rains $800
2nd rain rims $200
Paint $1,000
front shocks 7600 $750
Rear 8100 $850
Transponder $500
Bead seat $200
Fuel cell $1,200
Rain light $100
Brake lines $100
Braided lines $120
Wiring $125
Belts $75
Nuts bolts hardware $200
Grand Total $30,820
Last edited by veefan; 10.28.14 at 10:53 PM.
Come on guys, FV is called a low cost entry level class, but front a runner in vee is TOTALLY financially no different from a from runner in Spec Miata, except they have disk brakes and they don't get wet when it rains
Absolutely correct !! And for the one or 2 people who REALLY need or WANT to do that in the next 5 years - I am sure they will find the FV class = to "X amount of fun".Build a Vortech from scratch...
3rd most run car in the 2014 runoffs... not sure whats quals as mass produced...
+/- Bill is spot on from an accountants point of view.
Vortech kit $10,000
Autowerks House motor $7,500
needle bearing beam $1,200
VSR stort transaxle to the drums $1,200
brake shoes $200
VSR Long box to the drums $1,200
brake shoes $200
digital dash all senders $1,800
fire system $500
rims $200
tires $600
rains $800
2nd rain rims $200
Paint $1,000
front shocks 7600 $750
Rear 8100 $850
Transponder $500
Bead seat $200
Fuel cell $1,200
Rain light $100
Brake lines $100
Braided lines $120
Wiring $125
Belts $75
Nuts bolts hardware $200
Grand Total $30,820
Now, for the REST of the new people looking to get into the FV class - looking at an abundance of $5k to $8K ready to run cars - that money will also get you the same = to "X amount of fun".
Get it?
John
John Ferreira
FV 15
you're totally right, but you can also get a spec miata for 5K to 8K also ready to run... so who's attracting more NEW YOUNG drivers?
Last edited by veefan; 10.29.14 at 12:15 AM.
Numbers
In the 2014 runoffs... 32 FV's at an average age of 52..., who's just about double that number ... 63 Miata's over 3 classes... what their average age? who attracting new drivers?
Why?
Any FV guys been on an Miata forum recently? You'll not find anyone moaning or groaning
OMG I can't find rims, cases, cylinders and pistons, Brake shoes,
p.s FST STAY OFF OUR Forum...??? no grumpy people...
and YES when some one decides to sell off their hidden hoard of parts something comes available... drums, backing plates cases etc...
BRAND new parts are available for the Miata guys RIGHT NOW. ( sorry the FST guys also can access any new parts they need)
Here's some more facts, check out every other country.... call it FV, F1200, F1600 or whatever you want, Canada, Auzzies, England... Euro's , etc, they all have huge VW racing fields and not JUST at the runoffs once a year, and not just in the New New England area, every race weekend, with fresh young racers... rules have changed for them, to adapt to necessary and required changes, period. Those countries, change, adapt, why is it so hard for us? While the AVERAGE AGE OF FV racers continues to go up...
WHY?
more
The FST guys gave it a go, looked at the FV issues, looked at other countries, gave it a shot to try and address the issues that needed addressing.
and created Formula First.
And you know, it works! I'm still waiting for a grumpy post from one of the FST guys... still haven't seen one...
Just guessing but' I'd say most FST GUYS have driven Both a VEE AND AND AN FST, so why are you FV people so critical of them?
They can offer valid info on tire changes, racks, disk brakes ball joint beans a single ratio transaxles...
Last edited by veefan; 10.29.14 at 12:17 AM.
One more post, and I got to go to sleep...
Lets try and start over, and get the to start of this tread... and stop all throwin mud,
I LOVE FORMULA VEE BUT...
What are the benefits of drum brakes vs disk brakes and why will we not change????
That's the real question?
I think this points out the problem - the inmates are running the asylum. And the National SCCA has no interest in getting involved - more like Pontius Pilate washing his hands….
The idea of a $30K FV is ridiculous - not that you could not build it, but you probably would not be much faster than the guy who spent 3 years building to that point. Lets face it, are any of the top 6 cars at this years Runoffs less than 8 years old? Some are close to 20. Even Mike’s car is not new (I think he ran it when Topeka was the Runoffs track - how long ago was that?) The only guy who ran a “new” car finished 4th (or 7th - depending on your view)
BTW - The NE had 6 drivers go to the runoffs - remember in the old days it was only the top 3 from each division - which other divisions are not holding up their end of the bargain. I expect big numbers to come back at MO in 2016.
The Majors program has turned the FV community into 2 groups - the Top guys looking for competition and the Regional guys looking for inexpensive, competitive racing (not necessarily the fastest). Maybe it was like that in the National days, but the Majors have pushed it further. Some of the regions have got this and put on a program that encourages FV participation (and Spec Miata) because they need racers, not just members. They need numbers with the track rental these days.
New drivers are not even looking at the SCCA - where are they running?
Karts
Skip Barber and similar
Rand FF
Fender car pro classes
And why are they not running? Can you say Student Loans? Average is $33K for 2014 college grads.
NER has done a better job (because of the hard work of the FV guys with NER) of attracting new young drivers - which is what most of us were in the 80’s and 90’s. You cannot sit back and wait for them to show up - it is more of a one by one effort today.
So at a regional level you can race for $4,000 a year (4 races) once you have the average $8,000 car (Remember - the average passenger car in 2014 is $32K!) And the biggest expenses are not always the car.
Enough for tonight - this is why I do not get enough sleep….
ChrisZ
It's totally interesting, after I post, I look at the names that are viewing the post, I know most of them and have raced with many of them. I respect a lot them, but they remain silent...
YES, FV...27, I'm captaino slow, I ain't too fast, but I love FV and FST, so why can't we learn from each other and GROW VW racing!
Reasons why people remain silent was disscussed earlier in this thread but it was thrown under the bus as always as if it never happens.
Mark Filip
Mark,
Can you elaborate? Not good at reading between the lines.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
No you all read the post and then slammed it and pretended it never happens.
Now it's my turn to to get slammed... I should have hit the delete button like many others have.
Mark Filip
Whether you are an outsider, or insider, you can choose different perspectives. While there may be three obsessed "F1" teams out there (Varacins, Weisheit, whatever Harding is building), that is not typical of FV racing.
With 2 laps to go, before last lap spins and tech shed conflicts, the top 5 were Swanson, Shields, Siebenaler, Streets, and Whitson. Yes that is 3 old Mysterians, a Protoform, and a VDF. Five old cars, well-prepped, with great engines, and great drivers. We could drop those 5 cars and drivers into 1995 and they would probably be the top-5 cars then. The only real difference would be their manifold spec and we would need some diapers for Terran and Andrew.
No one needs to buy $30K cars and buy $12K engines to have fun and success in FV. Smart spending of $8-15K will let you start from scratch and build a top-5 Runoff car that you can then operate for several $K per weekend, of which tires are your most significant operating cost. All you need then is a Roger or Skip to drive it.
Greg Rice, RICERACEPREP.com
F1600 Arrive-N-Drive for FRP and SCCA, FC SCCA also. Including Runoffs
2020 & 2022 F1600 Champion, 2020 SCCA FF Champion, 2021 SCCA FC Champion,
2016 F2000 Champion, Follow RiceRacePrep on Instagram.
FST Guy
We are an FST company. I can really only speak for ourselves but I haven't chimed in because we really have no more than a passing interest in the discussion. We promote our class as every driver should. But it speaks for its self. Some of our new FST people have never raced before. In the past 30 days we have had young dirt track racers that aspire to learn to road race and experienced young kart drivers test in our cars. Just last weekend at Gateway we had two young kart drivers visit our paddock with their fathers and express sincere interest in FST. This is what we choose to do and FV guys choose what the race. Individuality and choice is what this organization is about.
Absolutely 100% agree. Plenty of great used FV's out there for a great price. The question that I thought was proposed was "what FV cost that much?". I'm sure we'll all agree that building a new car will cost North of $30k. Why anyone would do that when so many good used cars are available for less than half that price, I can't say.
I've always said, it's not so much the initial purchase, it's the operating budget..... That is the killer. This applies to most all racing that I can think of.
Bill Bonow
"Wait, which one is the gas pedal again?"
For a class that's been described as dying, we sure have a lot of outside interest from those who don't race vee's!
Try finding a 1999/00 head - NLA from Mazda.
I have read this thread laughing sometimes and disappointed some others. But the amount of bull**** being spewed is amazing. Almost every post only tells half the story - if that.
For the FV guys - we, and formula racing in the SCCA have a problem. We present a ****ty value proposition. A new racer can come out, buy a miata and race in three different run groups, tripling their track time in larger run groups (of similar cars) with only an incremental cost increase. Towing, hotels, food, time off work all remain the same and with double/triple dip discounts it really starts to make much more financial sense. How do we make the FV a better value to new racers, those on the edge of staying, and people with cars in barns? In NE we have it great, but at Pocono this year I think there were 5 of us and at NJ only 3 on Sunday. It felt like a FST race, but faster.
For the FST guys - comments like "steering boxes feel like **** and the racks are awesome". Come on, I am sure a FST with a box would feel great too if it was six seconds slower than what the FVs were running that same day. "Racks are great", but no mention of being off pace due to overheating? Also, parts shortages? Come on guys - really? One engine builder said to me just a few months ago "I have two new blocks on the shelf that I need to get rid of". Maybe the non-FV racers that said they needed a new engine a few pages back can call Chris.
It's too bad that the two groups cant come together as "VW 1 and VW 2" to promote "low cost" formula car racing. We should be looking at the long term future of VW racing in the context of other hobbies, other types of motor vehicle events, and other racing. I just don't see it happening though with the way we continue to crap all over each other, both in private and public.
For example, personally I am glad I do not see the need to spend time over in the FST section discussing overheating, mocking great racing in two car fields, and having fantastic races between FVs and FSTs. I wish the FST community had the same restraint to stop bringing up issues like part availability that do not exist except for FST drivers/owners/crew and people with their heads in the sand. Call Steve Pastore, PM Greg, post a WTB thread, look in the classifieds. Parts are out there - backing plates, beams, transmissions, engine parts (really people looking for engine parts? when was the last home built legal engine making competitive power? but that's another thread all together), even damn good used tires (second place at this years NARRC runoffs was on used tires that were....FREE).
My frustration and more than a handful of other FV drivers frustration comes from the apparently compelling need of the FST community to continually crap on FV and spread false information about problems that don't exist or problems that we share equally. I wish that the FST community showed the same respect and restraint that I see from the FV community.
Overall, we have a shared problem FV and FST and formula car racing in general. Until we have clear, measurable, tracked goals such increasing participation through driver recruitment and driver retention then the rest of this mudslinging is just hurting FV, FST, and formula car racing in the SCCA. We need goals and a path - joint shared goals and a clear path that we can go down together. The people who care about keeping formula car racing alive in the SCCA need to work together to make it work long term. Hope it happens, but I can't see it based on my few years of being involved in FV and the SCCA.
Now I am off to look at "Spec" Miatas so I can run SM, SM2, STL, ITA, ITS, and 12 hour enduros with two or three buddies. All in big fields of cars with similar potential. Now that's a reasonable value.
Craig
PS - to address the emails and PMs ahead of time - I will be in a FV for most of the time in 2015. I'm not going away.
The numbers for costs being thrown around about costs are all accurate—highs and lows.
So here's an insider/outsider view of FV. How can I be both? Before my life got turned upside down a few years ago, I had actually bought a race-ready FV off of these forums, ready to go—starting from scratch, literally. I didn't even have a trailer to get it home. I didn't want a $35,000 Protoform, but didn't want a 35-year old bucket of bolts, duct tape and bailing wire, either.
So consider my position at the time the target market for what you would typically want joining the class—racing experience, financially about 2x the US median income level, intent on staying in the class longer than a year, and willing to grow and learn and promote the class as a whole. I started in FCs but wanted to race something on my own, and it was the most appealing class at the time (or so I believed).
I needed everything—car, trailer, engine, wheels, tires, transponder, safety gear, spares—everything. I found a car in the Midwest that was in my price range, ready to race, and at the quality level I wanted. It didn't have a ton of spares, but I got a chassis stand, short and longbox, a few spare wheels and a fresh engine in the car with the purchase. For the price, it has to be in the ballpark for a benchmark in what you can get out there.
I bought the car in the fall of 2009 (queue sad trombones here) and started the process of preparing for the spring of 2010 and the race season ahead. Helmet, suit, open trailer, licensing, and everything else needed to race a car in the SCCA. I figured I was looking at about $15k to be on the track—and that was the slimmest numbers I could pull to put a quality car on the track from scratch. A Runoffs winning car? Maybe not, but it certainly was a top shelf National-level car without a doubt.
The fact was, I had no spare parts to speak of, no aircooled VW background, and no FV chassis tuning insights at all. I was willing to learn, even knowing that whatever I learned wouldn't translate to ANY other class anywhere in racing. I started to have a little bit of panic. How much was an engine refresh again? Where can I get a new front beam or heads if I should need them? Who has wheels for sale? I'm not into junkyard scrounging. Mild panic.
What had I done? Was I jumping into a class that was doomed to collecting dust? I didn't completely feel that way, but I wasn't feeling great about having a steady pipeline of parts if I had needed anything. I had looked at cars owned by guys with a garage full of brake shoes and drums, beams, axles, heads, engine parts, wheels and everything you could imagine—all hoarded away for safe keeping. Sure, the stuff is out there, but it wasn't in my garage.
Unfortunately, the bottom fell out of everything for me in the fall of 2009. The company I worked at for 6 years closed its doors in December of '09 and left me wondering what was going to happen to my family, house and everything else important to me. I sold the car in the first 12 hours that it was listed here for just about what I paid for it, and it helped me get through the very difficult next year while starting my own business (really bad time to be doing that, btw).
I look back at FV fondly, and think about what could have been if my timing didn't completely suck. I would have enjoyed the class immensely, but I wonder how I would have fared as I progressed in the class. Would I have always wanted to jump to FF or F600? Where were my parts pipelines? I don't know the answers to the problems, but I can tell you what the mindset was of someone who weighed ALL of the options, and still purchased a FV. That's not the normal path, obviously, and yet I was still relatively uncomfortable with the whole thing.
Does that not tell you something about the outside perception of the class? It should.
Stop speculating on everything, it's not helpful. Someone in the know—how about the ad hoc committee—sit down and go over an entire car. List out every part on a typical FV. Be prepared to tell me where I can buy ANY part on the car, and for how much. How many are left on shelves anywhere? Don't use Craigslist, eBay, discussion forum classifieds or junkyards as sources. Is it enough to sustain a class for 5-years? Ten years? If not, fix it. Get replacements, make replacements, allow for options. Do it. If it has been done already, prove to anyone thinking about entering a class that they should not worry about it. Can you do that? If not, can you answer why not? Stop arguing about it and fix the damn problems already. People were looking for solutions in 1969—why haven't they been addressed yet, 45 years later?
There is a thread right now in the F600 section here that is just starting, about a new racer who wants to race formula cars. He asked about F600. Clint McMahan quickly summarized his expenses and consumables in one single post, with prices and typical replacement rate. Could anyone here do that for a FV with confidence? For a class with a similar price point, you should be concerned about the appeal and ease of entry point of F600s. How does FV compare?
This isn't that complicated, but there needs to be some real concessions made by those people with garages full of vintage VW parts. There has to be some real understanding of the issues that are faced, or this class will evaporate. Unless you take the path of least resistance and move FV to vintage racing (and maybe that's the solution), it will dry up and die without some immediate help.
doug
Great story Doug. I remember that car. In fact, I should probably have bought it myself rather than going the route I did, with somewhat predicable results. My background is similar to yours (thankfully without the job loss) and I lived through all the things you mentioned. And guess what? My car has now been parked in the garage since I brought it home from the 2010 Runoffs. Not sure what the lesson is there, but I am still a fan of the class and interested in its future.
Matt King
FV19 Citation XTC-41
CenDiv-Milwaukee
KEEP THE KINK!
Non-speculative numbers
I ran Gateway this past weekend in an FST field of 11 cars. My best lap time was about 3 seconds faster than the fastest FV in the last National at that track and also faster than the current FV record. There's nothing unusual about any of those things at one of our series races. Since Craig wants to limit the BS (a great idea for sure) I thought this clarification was in order.
Doug FST 5
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