Tires - Again

[Tim Webb]

I was up at Mosport this past weekend and was able to catch the F1600 race. Super tight racing with a good number of cars entered. The cars look like a blast to drive and some older cars were keeping up with the newest F1600 available.

That said why can't we in the lower 48 get our act together and make the switch to the tire used in Canada. Sure it will increase lap times, but a premium will be placed on car control. The fast guys will still be the fast guys, but the out lay of cash per weekend will go down drastically.

I spoke with at least three different teams including the Spectrum dealer and each said they go three weekends on the Toyos. In fact it was mentioned that the tires get better with age since the tread wears down. For rains they throw on a set of fresh Toyos.

$500 for a set of tires that are good for more than one weekend sure sounds good. Is that why you see such good fields north of the border? I know I would make many more races per year if this one expense is reduced. $1,000 for a set of Hoosiers is just plain stupid.

[Dennis Valet]

I'm on board with you man. We are the only dumbies in the whole damn world running slicks on their FFs.

[TimH]

I spoke with at least three different teams including the Spectrum dealer and each said they go three weekends on the Toyos. In fact it was mentioned that the tires get better with age since the tread wears down. For rains they throw on a set of fresh Toyos

I'm over a year on my latest set of Toyos. That's seven events, usually about eight sessions/heat cycles each. I expect the tread to be gone after my next event, but haven't seen any change in the maximum lateral or braking g on my AIM.

Sure, I could go faster on slicks but I'm having a hoot of a time rotating the car at will, and we're all under-tired together.

[DFR Dave Freitas]

Not to change the subject, but on the west we have gone from a spec radial 8/10" tire to an open 6/8" tire rule. Cars are now slower and the amount of money we are wasting on rubber is staggering compared to the last 10 years.

Not to mention they go off so quick it makes testing with used rubber almost useless after a weekend. Our radials would easily do a test day after running them for 4 sessions during a race meet.

Real world stuff, not conjecture.

[Tom Valet]

I had a lengthy conversation with Bruce Foss of Hoosier at the Glen Pro race this past weekend. He said that for next year they will have a different tire for the F1600 tire, the supply of Kevlar is unpredictable so they are changing the internal construction. But otherwise the tire will be the same.

I asked him if he would consider getting rid of the cantelever. He said he would love to but he didnt believe that the racers would support it. I suggested he was wrong and that the Pro series should take the lead in getting away from the current tire and that the majority of racers would in fact support serious changes to the tires in FF. He was not convinced, and he obviously talks with a lot more FF teams than I do.

He then mentioned that they could use the FC front radials as the FF tire but he felt young drivers coming up need to be on bias ply tires to help them learn car control.

When I mentioned the popularity of the Toyo tires, Bruce said that was a street tire, nobody wants to race on street tires.

What I got out of this conversation is that to a point Hoosier will do what the FF community wants (ie they probably will never make a treaded radial for FF), but until we give them a clear indication that change is needed and wanted, they will stay with what they rightly consider to be a very successful tire in the F1600 Pro tire. Bruce's last words to me were, if it aint broken, why fix it? I said, to me $1,100 a set is broken and that is one of the reasons so few club racers come to the Pro series anymore.

Change can happen in FF with regard to tires, but the FF community as a whole needs to let their collective voices be heard. Complaining about tire costs on Apex is not going to get it done.

[EYERACE]

what you're hoping for is that everyone will agree with you and change......and we both know that's not going to happen. so the obvious suggestion that you go and do it all by yourself is the best you can hope for.....go ahead......that's true courage. who knows, if you therefore make more grids by saving the expense of the tire budget, maybe others follow your example. the proverbial question becomes .......do you want to race or do you only want to race when you'll win? and both camps will still be around next year and next and...........

[Ralph Z.]

I am now running a vintage FF after more than 10 years with modern FFs. While the vintage car doesn't perform as well as the modern cars, the tire cost is minimal in comparison.

We run the Dunlop treaded tires. About $1,000 per set and I can get two seasons out of them at 4 events per year. I ran a couple of Pro 1600 events with a Van Diemen and had I continued for two years the tire cost would be $8,800. Easy math.

[SEComposites]

FF's should be on treaded tires in my opinion!
Slightly out of focus but this is me in the 90's on Avon's excellent ACB10 tyre. And this was the quick way!

[Tom Valet]

what you're hoping for is that everyone will agree with you and change......and we both know that's not going to happen. so the obvious suggestion that you go and do it all by yourself is the best you can hope for.....go ahead......that's true courage. who knows, if you therefore make more grids by saving the expense of the tire budget, maybe others follow your example. the proverbial question becomes .......do you want to race or do you only want to race when you'll win? and both camps will still be around next year and next and...........

Dont take this the wrong way, but I have no idea what you mean by this post.

If there is enough support for a tire rule change, it can happen, not by doing something by yourself but by banding together as a group.

Or, things can stay the same either because the majority wants it to, which is fine, or because people sit on their hands and do nothing but complain, which is not ok.

[mike g.]

I really want to do the Mid Ohio Majors next weekend. I am not because I would need a set of tires :-( Budget is already constrained, and another $800 isn't helping.

For you guys who say apex isnt the place to moan about it - how best to suggest we try to get something moving?

[Steve Bamford]

You need to run a scrubbed set at the very least for a rain session on the Toyo's to be competitive.

[Tom Valet]

I really want to do the Mid Ohio Majors next weekend. I am not because I would need a set of tires :-( Budget is already constrained, and another $800 isn't helping.

For you guys who say apex isnt the place to moan about it - how best to suggest we try to get something moving?

Mike, i submitted a spec tire proposal to the SCCA in 2010, calling for essentially a tire like the F1600 tire at the same cost as the FE spec tire. A vocal few who wanted to get the "ultimate" performance out of their FFs and believed they couldnt on "spec" tires scared everyone into believing this was a bad idea. A year later Hoosier came out with the F1600 tire, proved you could go faster on a hard tire, and put Goodyear out of the FF tire market. Costs have been rising ever since.

I have no interest in spear-heading another effort, but would gladly support one if it were made by others. I dont want to waste my time again, in 2010 the majority of FF competitors did nothing--very few wrote to the SCCA at all, either in favor or to oppose the proposal. Dave Gomberg told me that the SCCA took this to mean there was no interest in changing the tire rules.

As I said, change can happen, if it is wanted by the class, but people have to get involved and not sit idly by.

[TimH]

people have to get involved and not sit idly by.

or walk away..

[Purple Frog]

If a tire such as the Toyo was adopted by the F1600 Series there would be a sharp rise in the entry fee to cover the lost sponsorship from Hoosier. So... at least in the pro series it becomes a situation of "pay me now, or pay me later."

In the Club, a change could happen, but it would take significant member input.

Remember racing is a sport of Kings. Even with a hard treaded tire there will be teams that are buying new ones often and turning them down on a lathe, if it means there is any advantage.

[Tom Valet]

This didnt stop the West Coast Pro series from going to the Toyos. And while I dont know the details, Toyo sponsors the Canadian series. Finally, who says Hoosier wouldnt make the tire we want, if asked?

[andyllc]

I have run FF on street tires (Hankook back in my day) and they are great. I don't believe though that you will ever get Hoosier to make a 'street tire' for FF. That isn't in their DNA. If you want the pro series to adopt a tire like that you would be better off getting Toyo to be the tire of choice and for Toyo to take over the sponsorship that Hoosier provides.
The hard part is getting Toyo to buy into it because I don't believe it will ever change in SCCA and that eliminates a huge crossover market for them.

[Steve Bamford]

I have run FF on street tires (Hankook back in my day) and they are great. I don't believe though that you will ever get Hoosier to make a 'street tire' for FF. That isn't in their DNA. If you want the pro series to adopt a tire like that you would be better off getting Toyo to be the tire of choice and for Toyo to take over the sponsorship that Hoosier provides.
The hard part is getting Toyo to buy into it because I don't believe it will ever change in SCCA and that eliminates a huge crossover market for them.

Toyo does offer some sponsorship in the Canadian Series so I really don't think they would worry about carry over to SCCA Club, not at the start at least.

Min weights would have to go up to allow for the heavier tire package.

Dunlops were a quicker tire by about 2 seconds a lap then the Toyo's.

Grip level is much different.

You can't get FV to adopt a spec tire, I don't see FF doing so.

[Tom Valet]

Andy, no doubt you are right, Hoosier will never make a "street" tire for FF, i agree it is against their nature.

However, if they were given the spec tire contract for club and pro racing, I bet they would pretty much make any tire we ask them to make. And if they were made exclusive supplier for FF in SCCA, hopefully the volume would produce some cost savings, in addition to whatever savings that would result from changing the tire design, ie, eliminating the cantilever, possibly having only one size for front and rear, using a tire already made for another class, etc.

[Daryl DeArman]

If you want to keep Hoosier and the same distributors supporting the races, but a cheaper tire maybe the Hoosier Street TD's would be an option worth looking at.

Years ago I raced in a pro series with Hoosier support. This was our spec tire on a 1000#/200HP open wheel asphalt circle track car. Tires were $60/each to the racer and Hoosier contributed to purse as well as year end points awards. Hoosier was that aggressive with their bid because they also wanted the tire contract for our dirt series and there they were competing with McCreary.

As long as Goodyear/Avon/AmericanRace aren't offering such deals and Hoosiers are winning races what would entice Hoosier to supply a different and cheaper tire?

[Tom Valet]

Toyo does offer some sponsorship in the Canadian Series so I really don't think they would worry about carry over to SCCA Club, not AT&T he start at least.

Min weights would have to go up to allow for the heavier tire package.

Dunlops were a quicker tire by about 2 seconds a lap then the Toyo's.

Grip level is much different.

You can't get FV to adopt a spec tire, I don't see FF doing so.

I guess one question for you Steve, since you have driven on the Toyos, is what did you think of them?

We will be doing a Canadian race on the Toyos soon, and will see for ourselves shortly.

[S Lathrop]

Changing tires is not as simple as bolting on new tires and adjusting the ride heights .

I have worked on a conversion of a 94 Citation to run front tires all around. This is not simple nor inexpensive.

Just changing a Zink Z10 to use Dunlap Vintage tires takes some modifications for the car to work as it was designed.

In short every car is designed to work with specific tires. Change that and you might turn a good car into a monster trying to kill the driver.

[Steve Bamford]

I guess one question for you Steve, since you have driven on the Toyos, is what did you think of them?

We will be doing a Canadian race on the Toyos soon, and will see for ourselves shortly.

I have probably driven on more different tire combinations over the last 3-4 years then most. Started with Dunlops & Goodyears, did American Racers, Toyo's, Hoosiers 35's, Hoosier Pro Series, & even skinny set up with Hoosiers.

I personally prefer the slicks as a driver & when I go back & forth, from Toyo's to slicks or slicks to Toyo's I usually struggle for the first weekend as the grip level between the two is night & day.

The treaded tire takes a while to get used to as initially the car slides at the start of your turn but catches & grips fairly quickly, it just comes down to trusting it will grab once you start a slight slide. They do last longer but I would not say 3 weekends if you included a full test day which is usually about 5 sessions of 25 mins here locally.

As to Steve L's post the changes can be made to the cars with help from people who prep cars that run, it is not really that hard...but the hard part is the driver making the adjustments for the tire at first.

[andyllc]

I just don't see SCCA ever coming to an agreement on a spec tire for the class and certainly not one that is a 'street' tire.

The pro series could because I think overall the competitors have similar enough goals that it could possibly happen.

With club racing there are too many different types of cars to fit them with, people liking big rears, small rears, hoosiers or some other tire brand that might come along. Plus people will complain about re-engineering their cars and on and on, I just see no way that as a whole SCCA will ever pass this.

I don't want to be a doom and gloom, I just don't think it will happen. The only way it will happen is if a new class is formed and it runs a spec tire from the outset.

[marshall9]

We run spec Toyo r888s or the Yokahama equivalent here in AZ, and have huge car counts compared to SCCA. Most of our drivers came from SCCA, and like the tires. The guys that were fastest still are. The tires are different to drive on than slicks, but the older chassis designs are more competitive. In AZ, at an SCCA regional, typically 1-2 FFs show up. Our average field this year has been 12-15 FFs, as high as 25, with good racing in all three packs, front, mid and rear. Dunlops and American Racers are about 2 seconds faster. It has been a while since anyone has shown up with slicks, but I would guess about 5 seconds faster than the DOTs. When everyone is on the tires, we are all slower, but the talent still prevails. Also, it isn't just the tire costs, it is wear and tear(read as other consumables) on the entire chassis, due to the fact that the Gs are lower, and less stress on the heims, rod ends, steering racks, brake pads et al. Some guys, about 5, I think, are going to do the Canadian Pro Series Tour this summer and should do well, due to the seat time and car engineering on these tires. I, and a few others plan to do a couple of West Coast Pro Series races next year, when they convert to the Toyos. It makes it a lot more affordable to load up and go try a Pro race when we don't have to spend 2K for Hoosiers and also change the setup for them, via springs, shocks, tire test days, etc....for one weekend.

The decrease in grip also decreases the advantage of world beater engines and Hondas on the shorter tracks, allowing a car with a few less HP to get out of a corner as fast when properly driven.

FFs on DOTs are fun to drive and momentum cars, not cars that need 8-12K worth of shocks and the extra 10 HP to be competitive.

I understand the logic of a possible increase of entry fees, due to lost sponsorship, but am of the opinion that increased car counts can negate the effect.

I know this is probably the deadest zombie horse thread on here, but please don't reply with the "If you want a spec series, by an FE or SRF" because the Hondas have done that to FF already, via a spec engine........Top level Kents aren't competitive in 1600's top level (Pro) anymore. That isn't the issue, if Honda gave out free conversions, with engine included, some still couldn't afford tires, and if they could, still wouldn't have a Spectrum. If they could race their already to go package for 500-1000 for a full season tire wise, maybe they would. The Pro 1600 series can still run whatever they want for tires, but IMO, if FF in SCCA is to survive at all, they are going to have to look at something else than the current tire rules. I would go to the runoffs this year, if they were on an affordable tire, but testing, tires and such would cost me 5-10K for one race. I can run all year in our series for that, including an engine refresh.

[EYERACE]

Dont take this the wrong way, but I have no idea what you mean by this post.

If there is enough support for a tire rule change, it can happen, not by doing something by yourself but by banding together as a group.

Or, things can stay the same either because the majority wants it to, which is fine, or because people sit on their hands and do nothing but complain, which is not ok.

Tom - no reason for me to be offended

What I'm saying to the thread started is > Dude! For starters just do it all by yourself - of course keep talking to everyone else about it - and maybe in time others will join you in your choice of tires - that's going to take courage to go on the slower tire all by yourself - it's also going to mean expecting others to decide that racing is more important than winning [or in the case of one driver on the slow tire in a grid of slicks, getting the chance to turn hot laps] - because some one is still going to legally run slicks and beat the tar out of the guys who choose to save on the tire budget because the slick guy is the one who believes in winning at all costs - and - maybe - just maybe those who choose to buy the slower tire in time will save enough on their tire budgets that they have more entry fees and more events.......and likely more fun......leading slowly to converts rather than having a rule imposed on everyone so the change happens all at once.

we both expect some one to always want to run slicks....or at least buy new tires of whatever for the faster couple of seconds during their first couple of cycles. Maybe those on the hard tire can make up trophies for themselves and paint a toilet with gold paint to award to the dude on slicks.

[Brian C in Az]

I was up at Mosport this past weekend and was able to catch the F1600 race. Super tight racing with a good number of cars entered. The cars look like a blast to drive and some older cars were keeping up with the newest F1600 available.

That said why can't we in the lower 48 get our act together and make the switch to the tire used in Canada. Sure it will increase lap times, but a premium will be placed on car control. The fast guys will still be the fast guys, but the out lay of cash per weekend will go down drastically.

I spoke with at least three different teams including the Spectrum dealer and each said they go three weekends on the Toyos. In fact it was mentioned that the tires get better with age since the tread wears down. For rains they throw on a set of fresh Toyos.

$500 for a set of tires that are good for more than one weekend sure sounds good. Is that why you see such good fields north of the border? I know I would make many more races per year if this one expense is reduced. $1,000 for a set of Hoosiers is just plain stupid.

Come play in Arizona, we run the Toyo and the Yokohama DOT tires. Most guys get a lot more than 3 weekends out of them. It really is a great way to reduce the cost of the racing and it is a great equalizer.

[Brian C in Az]

Andy, no doubt you are right, Hoosier will never make a "street" tire for FF, i agree it is against their nature.

Hoosier already has a DOT tire for Formula Fords. It's not a new offering, look at their website.

[Tom Valet]

Brian, do you mean the R6? Did not know they made DOT tires. Price is under $200 each. No idea how they perform or what their intended use is, ie formula cars, tin tops?

[Tim Webb]

what you're hoping for is that everyone will agree with you and change......and we both know that's not going to happen. so the obvious suggestion that you go and do it all by yourself is the best you can hope for.....go ahead......that's true courage. who knows, if you therefore make more grids by saving the expense of the tire budget, maybe others follow your example. the proverbial question becomes .......do you want to race or do you only want to race when you'll win? and both camps will still be around next year and next and...........

Dude,

I'm not hoping that everyone will agree with me. I'm hoping that the majority of actual racers will choose to spend their money on more events than on $1,000 sets of tires.

It's no suprise that Hoosier baulked at TV's overtures. Hoosier has a monopoly right now. If the Toyo was selected, then Hoosier will not be selling any more tires. Why should they make a change?

What I'm interested in is seeing bigger fileds of FFs at the club level since the majority of FF owners are not racing in the pro series. Over the last 7 years the largest field in my region at a National/Regional/Rational/Major has been 10 cars. It would be nice to see larger fields and lower tread costs will help.

If both the US and Canadian FF class were to run the same tire, we would see more CAnadians running down here and more US racers would go there.

It's a simple proposition.

[Daryl DeArman]

Hoosier already has a DOT tire for Formula Fords. It's not a new offering, look at their website.

I have experience on both the R6 as well as the Street TD. However, neither tire on a FF.

Those are vastly different tires.

The R6 would likely exhibit similar life as a R35. On 2500# IT cars those R6's are one weekend tires. I think it would be a huge mistake. No cheaper to run, require changes to the car. Net loss to the wallet.

The Street TD's were used on a 1000#/200HP open wheel roundy-round car. They were good for about 10 heat cycles which was about 20 miles of track time. Granted, similar cornering G's and weight but very little cool off down the straights and a whole lot more wear on right side tires. Not sure how that would translate to a FF, but at $550/set even if they don't last much longer at all it's a significant savings. You would still be supporting Hoosier and the same trackside service guys.

[PCalhoun]

Brian, do you mean the R6? Did not know they made DOT tires. Price is under $200 each. No idea how they perform or what their intended use is, ie formula cars, tin tops?

The Hoosier R6 & A6 are their DOT UTQG 40 R-compound tires that have been in use in SCCA Touring, Super Touring, Showroom Stock, IT, and auto-x for the last 6-7 years. It even won GT2 last season at the Runoffs. By numbers the most popular tires by far in SCCA, but also far stickier then a Toyo R888 (which was the old World Challenge tire) referenced within this thread. I don't believe the R6 tire would long-term be a cost savings vs their bias-slick. They in fact cost more per tire now and are currently being phased out for the R7/A7 family just launched last month.

The Toyo R888 is nothing special just a 185/60-13 front and 205/60-13 rear near R-compound UTQG 100 tire. The problem is that long-term 13in DOT 60 series performance tires are fading into obscurity, since no sporty cars have used them since the early 80's (70's?). Stay w/ a dedicated race tire and 13in is still popular in numerous formula and sportsracer classes, which will aid long-term availability.

Do a search for 185/60-13 and 205/60-13 tires in matched sets and those are your current options for a street tire (you will not find many

Reading between the lines here the issue is not cost, it is consumption that is the issue. As FF slicks themselves are still some of the least expensive among all SCCA classes.

My .02
(Disclaimer- above are my personal comments as a past FF owner and not those of Michelin NA)

[Daryl DeArman]

The R6 would likely exhibit similar life as a R35. On 2500# IT cars those R6's are one weekend tires. I think it would be a huge mistake. No cheaper to run, require changes to the car. Net loss to the wallet.

I don't believe the R6 tire would long-term be a cost savings vs their bias-slick

Agreed.

[marshall9]

One thing I will add to this conversation is that the street tires are heavy, really heavy. The Toyo R888 rears in the max rear size weigh 6 lbs EACH more than the fronts. I was reminded of the weight last night when loading wheels with these mounted, the gentleman loading commented on the Compomotive three spokes, "What kind of wheels are these? They sure do weigh a lot." It was the tires, not that it is a bad thing, but unsprung, and definately requires some chassis changes.

[Raceworks]

We run spec Toyo r888s or the Yokahama equivalent here in AZ, and have huge car counts compared to SCCA. Most of our drivers came from SCCA, and like the tires. The guys that were fastest still are. The tires are different to drive on than slicks, but the older chassis designs are more competitive. In AZ, at an SCCA regional, typically 1-2 FFs show up. Our average field this year has been 12-15 FFs, as high as 25, with good racing in all three packs, front, mid and rear. Dunlops and American Racers are about 2 seconds faster. It has been a while since anyone has shown up with slicks, but I would guess about 5 seconds faster than the DOTs. When everyone is on the tires, we are all slower, but the talent still prevails. Also, it isn't just the tire costs, it is wear and tear(read as other consumables) on the entire chassis, due to the fact that the Gs are lower, and less stress on the heims, rod ends, steering racks, brake pads et al. Some guys, about 5, I think, are going to do the Canadian Pro Series Tour this summer and should do well, due to the seat time and car engineering on these tires. I, and a few others plan to do a couple of West Coast Pro Series races next year, when they convert to the Toyos. It makes it a lot more affordable to load up and go try a Pro race when we don't have to spend 2K for Hoosiers and also change the setup for them, via springs, shocks, tire test days, etc....for one weekend.

The decrease in grip also decreases the advantage of world beater engines and Hondas on the shorter tracks, allowing a car with a few less HP to get out of a corner as fast when properly driven.

FFs on DOTs are fun to drive and momentum cars, not cars that need 8-12K worth of shocks and the extra 10 HP to be competitive.

I understand the logic of a possible increase of entry fees, due to lost sponsorship, but am of the opinion that increased car counts can negate the effect.

I know this is probably the deadest zombie horse thread on here, but please don't reply with the "If you want a spec series, by an FE or SRF" because the Hondas have done that to FF already, via a spec engine........Top level Kents aren't competitive in 1600's top level (Pro) anymore. That isn't the issue, if Honda gave out free conversions, with engine included, some still couldn't afford tires, and if they could, still wouldn't have a Spectrum. If they could race their already to go package for 500-1000 for a full season tire wise, maybe they would. The Pro 1600 series can still run whatever they want for tires, but IMO, if FF in SCCA is to survive at all, they are going to have to look at something else than the current tire rules. I would go to the runoffs this year, if they were on an affordable tire, but testing, tires and such would cost me 5-10K for one race. I can run all year in our series for that, including an engine refresh.

All good points, although I have some thoughts of my own, based on 20 years of experience racing on a variety of tire types & chassis:

• Front Wheel Drive Mini-Stock (oval track): Hoosier Street TD's on VW's Rabbits & Sciroccos
• INEX LEgends Cars: BF Boodrich street tires
• SCCA Improved Touring: Hoosier Street TD's, and later the first-generation Radial DOT tires (VW's again)
• SpeedvisionCup Endurance Series: Toyo Proxes RA1's on a Honda Del Sol
• World Challenge: BF Goodrich DOT racing tires, then Toyo Proxes street tires (Honda Prelude for 3 seaons, then a Civic hatcback)
• SCCA ITE & NASA H1: Kumho Victoracers, Hoosier Radials (Honda Del Sol)
• Formula Mazda: Switched back & forth repeatedly between Hoosier & Gooyear slicks
• Formula F: Hoosiers usually R45's & F1600 tires.

I also watched NASA pretty much destroy Honda Challenge by badly implementing a spec tire rule.

What I've noticed between all these different tires and chassis combos is:

1) Tire life is never quite what the most vocal advocates of "cheap" tires say it is. I tend to find the people claiming monstrous tire life out of harder slicks or DOT tires are either very slow or they don't account for session length. An F1600 pro weekend (without test day) has 3 hours of track time, an SCCA Majors weekend is about 2 hours, while a double regional weekend is usually about 1.5 hours. Your typical test day is around an hour and a half. A guy claiming he gets a whole year of racing out of a set of tires but runs in the back of the pack at the back of the pack the four regionals he does a year (6 hours of track time) is not going to be a fair comparison to a front-running national driver doing 6 pro weekends a year with test days (27 hours).

2) Most racing tires have their useful life measured in heat cycles, not hours or miles anyway. I have yet to see one that can be driven competitively at all at more than 12 heat cycles. Most, even the DOT's could only manage six. Yes, the drop-off may not be more than a couple of tenths after the "sweet spot" is passed, but in a competitive enough series that may be the difference between 1st and 10th.

3) Most of you apparently have no idea the kinds of games one can play with a treaded hard-compound tire. If you can find the right shop, or have enough money to burn yourself you can not only shave tires but cut camber into the treads (the latter was particularly popular in Legends cars). Then there's the trick of buying or making a proper tire rotissierie and putting the tire softener INSIDE the tire as it spins. Awesome grip even if the tires a trashed after only a session or two. You probably won't see this at a regional or even divisional level, but things get much more cut-throat at the national & pro level. Even some idiot with a big wallet will try this stuff at the regional level if the class is popular enough and the idiot's ego is fragile enough.

4) All other things being equal, the new hotness will always beat the old & busted. Your 1985 Swift or 1995 Van Diemen is always going to be at an inherent disadvantage to somebody's 2014 Mygale, Piper, or Spectrum. Yes, "David & Goliath" does sometimes happen, but realistically that newer frame is way less beat up than yours, and there HAVE been a few aero & suspension technology changes since the 1990's.

5) All other things being equal, big wallets will beat smaller wallets. Yes, you may hit diminishing returns sooner in certain areas (like shocks) with a less grippy tire, but the big money guys are still going to have an edge even in spec classes or with spec tires. This will be especially true in the transition year, as the folks with big wallets will have the money to do off-season testing. They will also have the money to re-configure the car's suspension for DOT tires, if necessary. And yes, those triple-adjustable Penskes (once they get properly re-valved) are still going to be an advantage over your Carreras on DOT's.

All that being said, I'd still be for anything that makes the cars cheaper to run. My only caveat is that whatever we do at the club level I'd like to see duplicated in the pro series. I'd really hate to have to make major changes back & forth between weekends (yes I know some people do that now but maybe I'm just lazy).

The problem is I'm not sure that the overall national consensus is that we should go to a spec DOT tire, or any kind of a spec tire. Yes there is certainly a vocal contingent on Apexspeed and elsewhere but I'm not sure that's really the opinion of FF competitors on the whole. Has anyone done any kind of scientific survey on the subject? Talked to their fellow competitors on different weekends? Anecdotally I recall an even split between people happy with the status quo and who want change, but that really doesn't mean anything.

Another thing to look at is what the overall market trend is. Even at the best of times formula car racing is a bit of a niche market compared to the tin-tops, which really drive what gets produced in the realm of DOT tires. It would be a bad long-term plan to go to Toyos or Yokos or whatever and end up with all the manufacturers dropping 13" tires in a couple of years.

As a compromise or transitional move, it might be easier at first to employ a tire rule similar to FM/FE or the pro series and place a limit on the number of tires that can be run in official qualifying & race sessions. I would want this even if we were to go to a spec DOT tire just to avoid a lot of the shenanigans I mentioned above.

The pro series does it with six tires for two races, and I'd argue you could drop that even in the pro series to four. It tends to discourage the more radical chassis setups & soft compound tires even in non-spec series, and it rewards the drivers who are smoother and less stupid as well.

[Brian C in Az]

Another thing to look at is what the overall market trend is. Even at the best of times formula car racing is a bit of a niche market compared to the tin-tops, which really drive what gets produced in the realm of DOT tires.

Our "niche market" is growing by leaps and bounds compared to other markets running slicks.
The whole point os this discussion is how to lower racing costs to get more cars on the track. Our fields are growing and we have more FF's on our worst weekend than many other regions have at their best.

Quite simply, lower tire costs do not detract from the excitement of racing, but smaller fild counts do. Would you rather race 3 cars on slicks or 20 cars on DOT tires?

Other countries run thr DOT tires with great success and they are also experiencing an increase in participation.

[captdigi]

Facts are facts... In AZ, the DOT tires have brought MANY cars out of the garages and onto the track. The competition is great, and the sport has become much more affordable. For all of the critics of low-cost spec tires that last more than one weekend, and who wish to spend whatever it takes to win with the SCCA... Enjoy being the "Big frog in a little pond". No smoke and mirrors here, the SCCA is sucking wind when it comes to open-wheel racing out here in the west. Like Marshall mentioned, the car counts are way up in AZ (15-25), with many folks coming from out of state, and all new-comers and skeptics are welcomed. I'll have to warn you though... You may actually have a blast, face some serious competition, and most likely leave with money left over in your wallet.
Cheers!

[Swift17]

....... (because I do NOT know) why no spec tire rule.

Since racing FF in 1978, I very INFREQUENTLY heard complaints about entry costs, engine rebuilds, hotels or tow costs - I ALWAYS have heard complaints about tire costs.

I have absolutely NO experience with the current R60 tire BUT it appears C/F drivers use them for a very long time and they "Cheshire cat" smile alot when asked about tire costs - it appears logical at first but (as often happens) I may not fully understand/comprehend the problem.

What would be the problem for Hoosier using the C/F R60 compound in the pro tire molds for a new tire so at least ride height could have a reasonable base line ...?

With Daytona next year - wait and see the tire combinations (and the attendant costs) to get 'skinny's" on the rear -in two weeks we'll see the first glimpse with the SARRC race at Daytona followed by SIC Finals at the same track in September

As with virtually all matters - it comes down to $$$$

As to Hoosier, why would they make a R60 tire in the pro mold - PF is correct the "kick back" dollars are necessary in the pro Series - In Club/Majors/SARRC, etc the continual purchase if 25's 35's etc. funds the logistics, etc. Capitalism even in a monopoly, based upon continual sales suggest a self defeating program of building longer lasting tires as not being a viable option.

With the limited products offered by GOOD~YEAR [SRF and GT1] and their presence at the track - it would appear their "ole 600s would be a prime candidate since they are at the track and a "new" tire to be offered, again given the length of service, the ride height base line etc. but very doubtful they will come back - [more likely will be completely out of the sport car tire business ... very soon]

As to Toyo - they are probably not interested in a program (truck/trailer/tire machines/crews etc.) to service one class with the current minimal entries (Note: I have not seen a Toyo truck at all the Majors this year BUT really/to be fair I am not looking for it). And, I have been told new Toyos are faster and really just last 1 1/2 to 2 weekends but I am sure someone will pipe in.

As to BFG/Michelin especially with the Super Tour series, [and FF stall-worth Peter C involved] they would be a nice choice/tie in with the truck at the track - but again, with the current minimal entries why start such a program ..

While FF is not a spec series, neither is F1 and a spec tire is there as is in the multi chassis Pro Series; a gentleman's agreement to run R60's will never occur as someone will want to win more that what is better for the long term growth in the class.

Hoosier has a monopoly so their business model is not conducive to sell less tires because they last longer (and not recapture the cost of truck, crews, etc, ... I get it)

I am sure I am wrong and welcome constructive criticism, but it would appear an R60 compound in the pro tire profile could be if not a long term, a reasonable interim option

........ and the Club should show leadership, meet with its partner(s) and adopt a spec tire rule; its time !

[Daryl DeArman]

In Club/Majors/SARRC, etc the continual purchase if 25's 35's etc. funds the logistics, etc. Capitalism even in a monopoly, based upon continual sales suggest a self defeating program of building longer lasting tires as not being a viable option.

Hoosier has a monopoly so their business model is not conducive to sell less tires because they last longer (and not recapture the cost of truck, crews, etc, ... I get it)

Ding, ding, ding!

But you know what? You spec a hard compound, inexpensive tire that lasts 3 weekends or so and you don't need a tire truck at the track.

Spec the R60 for example, now Hoosier won't be selling a billion of the softer slicks. They could decide to quit making the R60 because they don't sell enough of them and you go to a Toyo or American Racer or whatever. Somebody that doesn't have the FF tire business now thinks they want it.

[problemchild]

Ding, ding, ding!

But you know what? You spec a hard compound, inexpensive tire that lasts 3 weekends or so and you don't need a tire truck at the track.

Spec the R60 for example, now Hoosier won't be selling a billion of the softer slicks. They could decide to quit making the R60 because they don't sell enough of them and you go to a Toyo or American Racer or whatever. Somebody that doesn't have the FF tire business now thinks they want it.

When you're running the Toyos, you can easily own just 8 wheels. We normally keep 4 new or almost new tires as spares for wet weather. If we get too thin on the primaries or damage one, we just rotate the deeper threaded tires in and buy new ones, one or two at a time. At Toronto last weekend, we were running a mix of tires purchased over a 3 year period. The Street car guys claim they are faster when worn out, but we don't like the last 5%, nore the initial mold release removal laps. Any performance difference between 99% and 5% wear is marginal and debatable. As a man of logic, I cannot argue that there is no theoretical performance gain, but it is certainly minimal on cars of our weight.

Without the cantilever sidewalls, virtually any tire shop can do mounting/dismounting.

[Toyo Tires F1600 Series]

Here is a video of the most recent event, at the Honda Indy Toronto, on Toyo R888's...we feel it makes for some pretty good racing, and it didn't take Brandon Newey, Sam Chastain or Steve Bamford (who won a race here last year) long to figure them out.


http://youtu.be/wdCfkspK9D8?list=UUO...HvcD3e1h-Zw_tg