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  1. #1
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    Default Tire scrubbing validation

    Has anyone seen a scientific study or paper that proves there is any benefit to new tire scrubbing or break-in?

    Brian

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    Senior Member Bob Coury's Avatar
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    A few of Carroll Smith's books validate the need-not unless tire construction has changed over the years. Maybe the case can be made that if you have unlimited funds, you would not need to do so if you started with stickers every session.

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    Default Re: Tire scrubbing validation

    Proper scrubbing is about a more consistent tire that lasts a bit longer & saves some $ that's all...
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

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    Senior Member Allen_W's Avatar
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    My experience is that stickers are faster than scrubbed tires. But I nearly always scrubbed tires, as racerdad says, because of money, the scrubs, for me, being useful considerably more cycles than the stickers. But for pure speed, definitely stickers.

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    Scrubbing is very important. You should run just enough to bring the tires up to optimum temperature and no more, say 150-170 degrees. My advice is no more than 4 laps. This is time enough to do one flyer for qualifying but no more.

    The worst thing you can do is go and run a 30 minute session with stickers.

    The softer the compound the more critical the brake in becomes.

    The one benefit of doing a proper scrub in of you tires is that you will set the tire diameters. You then should go to the setup pad and set balance and ride height. Bias ply tires can vary in diameter by as much as 1/2 in. If you really want to be fast, you need to be accurate in your setup.

    If you tires start to push the more you run on a set, you have an unbalanced car and you need to correct that problem. Else you will not get the best performance from you tire dollars.

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    Senior Member Allen_W's Avatar
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    I would follow roughly this routine (different at Road America due to track length): 1st lap slow, get rid of mold release, 2nd lap 60%, 3rd lap 80%, 4th lap 100%, 5th lap cool down and come in. Let air out of tires and sit them overnight. I ran Hoosier 25s. In cool temps if I recall we might do two 80% laps.

    Come to think of it, I only ran stickers twice, and we threw them out after the session. I've seen people use them for additional heat cycles, but we didn't even try. I only ran on stickers once for qualifying at Runoffs (did my fastest lap at RA in that session) and for one Runoffs, when we got caught out without scrubs due to rain and abbreviated sessions. Almost all of the top guys I raced against always ran on stickers for important qualifying sessions and races.

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    Based on replies so far, the answer to Brian's original question appears to be, "no."

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    Not an aerodynamicist Wren's Avatar
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    Default Tire scrubbing validation

    Quote Originally Posted by yellowesty View Post
    Based on replies so far, the answer to Brian's original question appears to be, "no."
    No one was going to provide an answer that he would accept. This was just a continuation of his trolling from another thread. There are likely fewer than 10 people on this forum with access to solid RJ article databases.

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    Lap times are enough evidence for me. Does anything else really matter?

    I think we have a case of ignore everything until you find something that fits your preconceived conclusion.

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    Contributing Member DaveW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Allen_W View Post
    I would follow roughly this routine (different at Road America due to track length): 1st lap slow, get rid of mold release, 2nd lap 60%, 3rd lap 80%, 4th lap 100%, 5th lap cool down and come in. Let air out of tires and sit them overnight......
    Most of this I agree with. The only place I differ is letting them sit with no inflation. In my experience, if you do that with bias tires, the only thing you accomplish is to make yourself go through the tire growth process twice. I have tried it both ways (sitting inflated or w/o inflation), and ALWAYS got more consistent tire diameters and performance letting them cool and cure inflated after scrubbing. For me, they always came back to or exceeded their hot originally-scrubbed diameter after the second run whether with or w/o inflation during the "rest" period.
    Dave Weitzenhof

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    Contributing Member Rick Kirchner's Avatar
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    wasn't this covered in "Beyond Round and Black"?

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    Paul Haney's book "The Racing & High-Performance Tire" has a section on scrubbing, among many other things that are relevant. The answer is yes, scrubbing is important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by reidhazelton View Post
    Lap times are enough evidence for me. Does anything else really matter?

    I think we have a case of ignore everything until you find something that fits your preconceived conclusion.
    So you are going to tell me that you toke two sets of tires, made in the same production run and ran them into the ground to do a valid comparison test?

    a) Was the same exact temperature operating profile maintained during tests? How was it measured?

    b) How were the track and weather conditions maintained?

    I would say such a test must be done on a tire test machine under very controlled parameters. The tire companies could do this, so why no published data?
    Why not some very precise break-in procedures on at least some limit number of products? The tire manufacturing process is very precise, yet it becomes very imprecise when it comes to the break-in recommendations that have been mentioned. If one break-in cycle is good, could two cycles be better?

    FSAE teams have developed tire design data to help with suspension design. They do a standardized two minute break-in cycle before running test parameters. Why is the test standardized? Why are the tire manufactures not providing a more detailed individualized procedure? This FSAE break-in procedure is an effort to stabilize the internal structure of the tire and provide test results that are immediately constant from the very start of testing. This no implication made that tire performance is improved or extended. There is no scientific evidence indicating that a change in structure is good or bad for extending tire performance.

    Sure this myth about tire break-in is many decades old, but that does not valid it. The FBI always said that no two people in the world had the same finger print. That has proved wrong. The American legal system had complete faith in the FBI's forensic evidence. Turns out that the FBI does not have ONE scientific test backing up any of their procedures. It is all garbage except for DNA.

    It is trolling for me to doubt the tire break-in myth?

    Brian

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    Contributing Member TimH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    Why are the tire manufactures not providing a more detailed individualized procedure?
    Even with a monopoly position in F1 you won't find Pirelli telling their competition that kind of detail. And if one team finds a superior approach you can bet they won't advertise it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    FSAE teams have developed tire design data to help with suspension design. They do a standardized two minute break-in cycle before running test parameters. Why is the test standardized? Why are the tire manufactures not providing a more detailed individualized procedure? This FSAE break-in procedure is an effort to stabilize the internal structure of the tire and provide test results that are immediately constant from the very start of testing. This no implication made that tire performance is improved or extended. There is no scientific evidence indicating that a change in structure is good or bad for extending tire performance.

    Brian
    Seems to me that the SAE test protocol confirms the brake in procedure is required. At a minimum, you can not get an accurate setup on sticker tires because the actual size of the tires is not set until the tire is run for the first time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    So you are going to tell me that you toke two sets of tires, made in the same production run and ran them into the ground to do a valid comparison test?

    a) Was the same exact temperature operating profile maintained during tests? How was it measured?

    b) How were the track and weather conditions maintained?

    I would say such a test must be done on a tire test machine under very controlled parameters. The tire companies could do this, so why no published data?
    Why not some very precise break-in procedures on at least some limit number of products? The tire manufacturing process is very precise, yet it becomes very imprecise when it comes to the break-in recommendations that have been mentioned. If one break-in cycle is good, could two cycles be better?

    FSAE teams have developed tire design data to help with suspension design. They do a standardized two minute break-in cycle before running test parameters. Why is the test standardized? Why are the tire manufactures not providing a more detailed individualized procedure? This FSAE break-in procedure is an effort to stabilize the internal structure of the tire and provide test results that are immediately constant from the very start of testing. This no implication made that tire performance is improved or extended. There is no scientific evidence indicating that a change in structure is good or bad for extending tire performance.

    Sure this myth about tire break-in is many decades old, but that does not valid it. The FBI always said that no two people in the world had the same finger print. That has proved wrong. The American legal system had complete faith in the FBI's forensic evidence. Turns out that the FBI does not have ONE scientific test backing up any of their procedures. It is all garbage except for DNA.

    It is trolling for me to doubt the tire break-in myth?

    Brian
    Whoa dude. Easy man.

    Lap times are all that matter. Mine show me that tires as stickers are faster, but are dead the next time you use them and heat cycling them makes them last for more heat cycles.

    I don't need a phd level paper to tell me these things. Lap times show it and that is all I care about.

    Really, chill out man, this whole thing is pretty ridiculous.

    PS. You'd be very, VERY, VERY well off to listen to DaveW when it comes to tires. He is the walking Phd level paper you are looking for. Listen to him.

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    I just have to reply to this....Reid said it best; in the end, its all about lap times.

    Brian, not sure what you are trying to accomplish asking for such detail and disputing what others with lots of experience say. DaveW was a Firestone Tire engineer for most of his adult life- listen to him.

    I've raced on, lets see, Goodyear, Yokohama, Hoosier, Avon, Bridgestone, Firestone (before they were Bridgstone), Hankook, on many different compounds. EVERY factory rep from each brand had a scrub procedure they recomended for their tire and compound. None divulged the chemical and structrual details, just said do this and your tires will work better. And, yes, they all had target temperature, pressure and range across the tire patch data they shared specific to each tire and compound.
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    Not an aerodynamicist Wren's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    It is trolling for me to doubt the tire break-in myth?
    Yes, when you question it the way that you have and refer to it as a myth.

    You won't accept that the manufacturers encourage this behaviour and that competitors see the results as evidence. You reject anything provided to you and demand more. Then you start talking about DNA. I don't understand your stubbornness on this.

    Have you had any experience to indicate that scuffing tires according to the manufacturer's reccomendations does not extend the life or shortens the life?

    Is this about some sort of beef with a BOD member? Manifolds?


    I would say such a test must be done on a tire test machine under very controlled parameters. The tire companies could do this, so why no published data?
    Have you tried calling a tire company and asking them? I doubt you would get very far, as the likely answer is that companies do not provide such information to their competitors. But, Hoosier has clearly decided to provide information to their customers.

    Why not some very precise break-in procedures on at least some limit number of products? The tire manufacturing process is very precise, yet it becomes very imprecise when it comes to the break-in recommendations that have been mentioned.
    What would be the point of a precise break in procedure? I don't think there are many cars out there on a club weekend with a data system providing tire temps on the dash or through telemetry back to the pits. So, the manufacturers have given us a procedure that we can actually follow instead.

    Why are the tire manufactures not providing a more detailed individualized procedure?
    Because none of us have tire testing machines in our shops.


    This FSAE break-in procedure is an effort to stabilize the internal structure of the tire and provide test results that are immediately constant from the very start of testing. This no implication made that tire performance is improved or extended. There is no scientific evidence indicating that a change in structure is good or bad for extending tire performance.
    So, you accept that the scuffing process changes the characteristics of the tire. After that we have the experience of the racers and the manufacturers saying that it helps extend the life of the tire and you refuse to accept it. I can't imagine what it would take to change your mind. No one is going to write a master's thesis or doctoral disseration on such things as tire longevity after break in is unlikely to be publishable in a peer reviewed journal. It would need to be a lot more "science-y." The realities of the tire changing after break in appear to be established fact as it is referenced in plenty of abstracts.

    I seriously don't understand what you are trying to accomplish.

    As already pointed out. DaveW spent his entire life working on such things and believes in the process as well. I believe he also has some sort of advanced degree in chemical engineering.

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    I can see you hadn't yet been exposed to the fabulous Brian Harding, Reid. Careful, he'll do anything to get people riled up.

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    Senior Member Allen_W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reidhazelton View Post
    Whoa dude. Easy man.

    Lap times are all that matter. Mine show me that tires as stickers are faster, but are dead the next time you use them and heat cycling them makes them last for more heat cycles.

    I don't need a phd level paper to tell me these things. Lap times show it and that is all I care about.

    Really, chill out man, this whole thing is pretty ridiculous.

    PS. You'd be very, VERY, VERY well off to listen to DaveW when it comes to tires. He is the walking Phd level paper you are looking for. Listen to him.
    As to tire companies, I always got my tires from Hoosier. The people at Hoosier could not be more helpful. They have spent hours - literally, not figuratively - with me trackside, advising on scrubbing, setup, etc. The Hooiser trackside folks were interested when we had anomalous results and discussed them with us. Their people took tire temps and puzzled about camber, as though they were crew. I tested a new design with them on one occasion. I admit that I never asked them for their test results - but I did come to have tremendous faith in them and trust that the advice they gave me reflected their testing as well as deep on-track experience. My scrubbing routine and even what I did the times I ran stickered tires reflected their guidance. What they told me, with the one exception noted by DaveW, is pretty much spelled out in Dave W's and Reid's posts - and my experience matches that. I never did try leaving my scrubs inflated but after reading DaveW's post wish I'd tried that - so many variables, so little time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by S Lathrop View Post
    Seems to me that the SAE test protocol confirms the brake in procedure is required. At a minimum, you can not get an accurate setup on sticker tires because the actual size of the tires is not set until the tire is run for the first time.
    Why is the procedure required if you are not gathering data? Their break-in is 2 minutes. There is no reason you can not setup the car for the tire values that are achieved after the two minute mark. No much racing/qualifying gets done in the first 2 minutes of use.

    Brian

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Wright View Post
    Brian, not sure what you are trying to accomplish asking for such detail and disputing what others with lots of experience say. DaveW was a Firestone Tire engineer for most of his adult life- listen to him.
    I am looking for someone to show a scientific test/report that can demonstrates that the break-in of the tire carcass has an effect on the compound and why does that effect lengthen or improve tire performance life. Why didn't DaveW volunteer something?

    Going back to the FBI and forensic evidence. You can bring the FBI guy who wrote the book on finger print evidence to court and everyone believed every word he said. He is the greatest expert in the world after all. Turns out he and his book lack any scientific credibility.

    So a bunch of guys who claim that they had better results using tire break-in with absolutely no test controls have little standing on this subject.

    Brian

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    Senior Member Allen_W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    So a bunch of guys who claim that they had better results using tire break-in with absolutely no test controls have little standing on this subject.
    Answer to question has anyone seen test results: Not me, but the people I worked with from Hoosier I feel certain have. And then gave me advice based in part on those results.
    Better results: actually, no, a number of us said not scrubbing was faster in our experience, without scientific controls admittedly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    Why is the procedure required if you are not gathering data? Their break-in is 2 minutes. There is no reason you can not setup the car for the tire values that are achieved after the two minute mark. No much racing/qualifying gets done in the first 2 minutes of use.

    Brian
    They did a 2 minute brake-in so the tires would stabilize. They did not run the tests with sticker tires. I would guess they found that the test results were inconsistent if they ran the test without the brake in.

    If you can not accept the above explanation then maybe you can understand this explanation: After spending the price of a new set of tires, we perform this mostly religious ritual of braking the tires in just to appease any gods that might care. And we are stupid enough to believe we get a benefit from this ritual.

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    Contributing Member DaveW's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reidhazelton View Post
    ...
    PS. You'd be very, VERY, VERY well off to listen to DaveW when it comes to tires. He is the walking Phd level paper you are looking for. Listen to him.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Wright View Post
    ...DaveW was a Firestone Tire engineer for most of his adult life- listen to him...
    Quote Originally Posted by Wren View Post
    ...
    As already pointed out. DaveW spent his entire life working on such things and believes in the process as well. I believe he also has some sort of advanced degree in chemical engineering.
    Thanks for all the compliments, but I do not consider myself an "expert" on anything. The older I get, the more I realize that I don't know. Most of the useful information I have, I learned from experience, and that knowledge base is constantly being updated.

    Just to set the record straight, I was a tire engineer only for two short stints during my career at Firestone. I mostly worked on design, testing, and failure analysis of air suspension and air springs. And, while most of the personnel at Firestone Research were chemists or chemical engineers, my degree was in Engineering Mechanics, sort of a mix of Mechanical and Civil Engineering.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    I am looking for someone to show a scientific test/report that can demonstrates that the break-in of the tire carcass has an effect on the compound and why does that effect lengthen or improve tire performance life. Why didn't DaveW volunteer something?
    Why don't you? None of us have much trouble drinking the cool aid and believing what we're told. Build a tire test rig and let us know what you find.

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    I think Brian got popped for something on fingerprint analysis and was later released because of DNA evidence. It's clear he has a beef with the FBI processes.

    Why demand such scientific proof? Why not use science (or lap times) to disprove everybody else? When the physical properties of two race tires from the same batch can vary as much as they do, I am surprised you are willing to accept any scientific proof when there are clearly variables from one tire to another to begin with, nevermind, one batch to another. You'd have to control the environment that the tires were subjected to from the momment they were released from the mold.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    Going back to the FBI and forensic evidence. You can bring the FBI guy who wrote the book on finger print evidence to court and everyone believed every word he said. He is the greatest expert in the world after all. Turns out he and his book lack any scientific credibility.
    If there was as much $$$ on the line depending on that FBI expert to produce results on a stopwatch I'm pretty sure contrary opinions would be given serious consideration. And rejected if false.
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    It's clear he has a beef with the FBI processes.
    I believe Brian is using the FBI example that what we believe to be true, without question, is sometimes demonstrated to be false.

    I don't know what Brian believes to be true regarding tires, but he has simply asked if there is any evidence beyond anecdotal, something with scientific weight that validates the belief.

    I have no idea and would defer to those with the experience. For some, it would be nice to know the actual chemical/physical phenomena that occurs with scrubbing. My guess is the tire engineers know this and keep it held closely, only giving advice to the users of their tires.

    In my field we have knowledge we do not share with the customer, only advising them of how to operate their process. We divulge nothing more as we do not want competitors to be able to reproduce what we do. That is not very unusual.

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    Ok guys, I know Brian is not often tactful in print. And I accept the suggestions from the manufacturers on scrubbing and mounting etc. However, a white paper would be nice to see. We can find them on oils, engine parts, fuels and even vacuum cleaners. I completely trust what (Hoosier, etc) tell me re: this, but why not a unbiased white paper of tests ?
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    At the end of the day, does a competitor need a white paper? The purpose of the exercise is to go faster longer. An individual who buys a set of tires can either scrub them or not. He might go faster qualifying on stickers and if he has enough money not worry about it because he'll put another set of stickers on for the race. More frugal racers will scrub the set, recognizing they might be slower initially but will have longer lasting tires. In the F2KCS series we're only allowed 6 tires for 2 qualifying sessions and 2 races, so some longevity seems to be called for, hence the value of knowing the scrubbing procedure per the tire engineers. Its a personal, subjective call by each driver or team, don't you think? The science behind it, while interesting, seems really only relevant to the tire manufacturers so they can make a faster, longer lived tire, or not.
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    Go to the hoosier website and look up scuff and scrubbing in the road racing dictionary tab.

    That should make it perfectly clear.

    Published recommendations from a manufacturer.

    Basically it says scuffed tires are sometimes actually faster than stickers and that scrubbing changes the rubber to make it more durable. YMMV

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    Quote Originally Posted by sracing View Post
    Ok guys, I know Brian is not often tactful in print. And I accept the suggestions from the manufacturers on scrubbing and mounting etc. However, a white paper would be nice to see. We can find them on oils, engine parts, fuels and even vacuum cleaners. I completely trust what (Hoosier, etc) tell me re: this, but why not a unbiased white paper of tests ?
    Probably because of the reasons mentioned on how companies (reasonably) operate and also because, so much on-track experience confirming the advice, this isn't top of the tire makers' to-do lists. Really. It isn't even off season yet . . .

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    Why is the procedure required if you are not gathering data? Their break-in is 2 minutes. There is no reason you can not setup the car for the tire values that are achieved after the two minute mark. No much racing/qualifying gets done in the first 2 minutes of use.

    Brian
    Do you know with certainty what those tire measurements will be? I don't. If you are running to win at the top level, you absolutely need to know.

    At the run offs, I have had three or more sets of tires scrubbed. Then take all the tires and match them for size. The range is sufficient that the variations will lead to an unacceptable difference in tires and weight bias. This is the variation in 6 each of fronts and rears.

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    Default Re: Tire scrubbing validation

    Disclaimer.... the following statement is not intended to depict any person... "Never argue with a fool. Onlookers may not be able to tell the difference." Mark Twain

    Just trying to add a little levity
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    I am looking for someone to show a scientific test/report that can demonstrates that the break-in of the tire carcass has an effect on the compound and why does that effect lengthen or improve tire performance life. Why didn't DaveW volunteer something?
    Do you honestly believe that and specific procedure will be perfectly valid for ALL tire constructions, materials, and compounds?

    Dave hadn't chimed in most likely simply because of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BLS View Post
    I believe Brian is using the FBI example that what we believe to be true, without question, is sometimes demonstrated to be false.
    I know that, I was just trying to interject some humor at Brian's expense because he keeps coming back to the FBI.

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    I know that...
    I know you knew that. But, I think it is a valid point. We often accept conventional wisdom. Brian does challenge conventional wisdom pretty often. There is often something to be learned in the challenge even if the conventional wisdom ultimately proves true.

    Regards,
    Barry

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hardingfv32 View Post
    Sure this myth about tire break-in is many decades old, but that does not valid it. The FBI always said that no two people in the world had the same finger print. That has proved wrong. The American legal system had complete faith in the FBI's forensic evidence. Turns out that the FBI does not have ONE scientific test backing up any of their procedures. It is all garbage except for DNA.
    Turns out DNA is garbage also. Given our rudimentary testing capabilities, anyway.

    That doesn't make either one useless information.

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    Default Re: Tire scrubbing validation

    Scientific certainties... subject to change without notice. In the early 70's, the scientific consensus was all about the impending Ice Age... "Science" is constantly proving itself wrong.... let's not forget the 'scientific evidence' that smoking was not only "Not harmful, but actually beneficial..."
    "An analog man living in a digital world"

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