what gives ???

[Rick Kean]

How about a belt driven motor generator. An extra 8 - 18 hp just might help you with a pass.

I think it would be feasible... at least for Kents.

2014 GCR makes no mention of "battery", or "voltage" within 9.1.1.B FC/FF Prep Rules

9.1.1.B.12. (Kent)
q. Cooling System
Cooling system is unrestricted. Any radiator, fan, water pump and drive
belt permitted.Pump/fan/generator drive belt: Unrestricted
r. Electrical Equipment
Distributor: Distributors are unrestricted provided the original drive,
location, and housing are retained. The distributor is defined as the
component that triggers the LT current and distributes the HT current.
The ignition timing may only be varied by vacuum and/or mechanical
means. It is prohibited to use any other method or component to trigger,
distribute, or time the ignition. The vacuum advance mechanism may be
removed, and the distributor advance plate may be secured by soldering
or welding or by suitable fasteners. The advance curve and advance
springs are unrestricted. Generators/ Alternators: not required. All other
electrical components are unrestricted.

[Raceworks]

Honda needs to be responsive. It might just be a lot easier to change the Honda ECU mapping to retard at 230 deg F instead of 210 deg F. My information says the Zetec mapping had the same coding in it from the street cars and it was eliminated for just this reason. I would venture a guess it was an oversight, not an intentional race related coding with Honda. The racing is so competitive in the Pro Series that even a couple of HP can make a difference between winning and losing.

Or people could just do some basic heat shielding and ducting mods.

When we ran the Piper in 2011, it rarely stayed under 210 even on 70 degree days. The car was running 220+ in the pro race at Mid-Ohio that year, and after hours of argument (which I lost) with the car owner I went ahead and did some engine cover mods and heat shielding anyway. Went from 210-220 on water and 280-290 on oil temp and dropped 30 degrees on water and 60 on oil temps.

The Van Diemens we ran in 2012-13 had no problems, if anything they ran a little too cool at times.

The Spectrum seemed fine until VIR, then we got the overheating problems. One car hit nearly 230 on water temp, and both weren't under 215 starting Mid-Saturday at the Pro weekend. Both cars DNF'd Sunday's race due to overheating (thank GOD both drivers had the sense to park the things before temps got really bad). I've been developing a number of basic fixes on a budget since, and the current set-up stayed cool even running up peoples gearboxes at Daytona in very humid 85-degree weather. I even mananged to pick up straight-line speed since the August race there as well.

In the Spectrum, I spent less than $500 on materials per car (biggest single expense was adding an oil cooler) and if I had to start from scratch I could do a car in a day. No way in hell would I put a fan on. I'd want neither the weight nor the extra load and drag on the alternator.

[jim morgan]

RE; Post #84

FWIW

Experienced the issue for the only time this weekend at Daytona extended time in draft took honda to 200-205 never above 190 before.
Pulling in and out of draft solved problem.

[Rick Kirchner]

The common Varley is something like 25AH. Odessy's are less. Restrict total battery capacity to 50AH, that way if a small guy want's to double up on Varleys so that his ballast has purpose, he's covered. If you were able to discharge all of that in the course of a half-hour race in some beneficial manner with 100% efficiency, you'd get less like 1HP.

I suppose some equally simple language for ALL traditional classes prohibiting the use of electric drive to assist the internal combustion engine in a manner to create a hybrid system is called for, if for no other reason than to be specific.

[DaveW]

... I suppose some equally simple language for ALL traditional classes prohibiting the use of electric drive to assist the internal combustion engine in a manner to create a hybrid system is called for, if for no other reason than to be specific.

That makes a lot of sense. You should write a proposed rule change regarding that and submit it to SCCA.

[LJennings]

Back to the beginning

1. Leave the cooling section for both the Honda and Kent as is
2. Keep the OEM Honda ECU map
3. I don't believe fans in the bodywork other than for cooling purpose will pass a protest
4. So why care if some carries 1000 lbs of batteries - I have three thoughts
A. The output current value falls below a minimum value that prevents an ECU or Pertronix unit not to function
B. To power other devices such as radios, DAQ units, etc
C. Or maybe an ILLEGAL alternator that has been modified into a brushless motor
5. Now my electrical math is a little rusty, I can only see about 1 to 1 1/2 hp at a stretch

[Joefisherff]

That (staying in step with the club rules) has been one of the strong points of the F2KCS and the F1600CS. If the rules diverge significantly, IMO, both these 2 series' and club racing will suffer.

Which is why I recommend we outlaw the Zetecs and the Honda Fits as they have definitely pushed the technology barrier and without fuel injection, alternators, on-cylinder coils, etc. these classes would be much healthier....

[nulrich]

Cooling fans that are either on or off for the entire race will not provide any competitive advantage. Cooling fans, even if they draw air through a heat exchanger, can provide a significant competitive advantage if they are under control of the driver or a data acquisition system during the race. There are several ways they could be used to modify the drag of the car. Look at what the F-duct in F1 was able to do simply by blocking an inlet with the driver's hand.

The capacity of lead-acid batteries is typically listed at the C/20 rate or how much energy it can deliver over a 20 hour discharge. Depending on the battery they provide much less energy when discharged quickly. In practice, that means a 50 A-hr lead acid battery will only give about 30 A-hr if discharged in 30 minutes, or about 60 A x 12 V = 720 W ~ 1 hp.

Lithium batteries are different and some cells (designed for power tools) can provide pretty much full capacity if discharged in 30 minutes. So a lithium battery of 50 A-hr capacity discharged in 30 minutes would give 100 A x 12 V = 1200 W ~ 1.5 hp.

If I were designing an ERS system I'd switch it on (mechanically or electrically) only at full throttle. If you're at full throttle 70% of the time at a typical track then you'd actually get about a 2 hp boost. Given brushless motor efficiency you'd likely get about 1.5 hp net. That could be the difference between 1st and 10th place in the F1600 series.

Every car on the grid has a starter motor. I don't see any requirement that it disengage after starting the engine.

Nathan

[NPalacioM3]

Every car on the grid has a starter motor. I don't see any requirement that it disengage after starting the engine.

Nathan

[Parker]

Pretty sure the stock Honda Fit starter motor is specified in the FF engine section of the GCR. Does anyone believe this is not clear?

You'd have to run a pretty tremendous voltage to get that starter motor to produce much torque at 6500 RPM.

[reidhazelton]

Pretty sure the stock Honda Fit starter motor is specified in the FF engine section of the GCR. Does anyone believe this is not clear?

Maybe one person. Doesn't really matter what the GCR says anyway.

Great. Another lawsuit.

[DaveW]

Which is why I recommend we outlaw the Zetecs and the Honda Fits as they have definitely pushed the technology barrier and without fuel injection, alternators, on-cylinder coils, etc. these classes would be much healthier....

It's a bit late for that. Almost all serious competitors are now using Zetec or Fit engines.

And, IMO, the 2 classes were withering badly before these engines were available.

They, IMO, are not making these classes less healthy. They are helping to revive them.

[racerdad2]

Just an editorial. Some food for thought. Since engine parity is seemingly so elusive. Since, apparently, there are so many Kent's & Pintos are parked because of this. Why not consider seperating the classes. Formula Ford - Formula Fit & Formula Pinto - Formula Zetec.

Race together to build numbers. Seperate scoring & trophies.

It would sure beat racing in the current mixed fields. Lots of Kent's & Fits racing in their own race group. Ditto for The FP & FZ. Just a thought....

[Raceworks]

Just an editorial. Some food for thought. Since engine parity is seemingly so elusive. Since, apparently, there are so many Kent's & Pintos are parked because of this. Why not consider seperating the classes. Formula Ford - Formula Fit & Formula Pinto - Formula Zetec.

Race together to build numbers. Seperate scoring & trophies.

It would sure beat racing in the current mixed fields. Lots of Kent's & Fits racing in their own race group. Ditto for The FP & FZ. Just a thought....

We seemed pretty damn even at Daytona. Had I gotten the Spectrum working in the infield as well as it did in the bus stop I might have won the SIC. I missed the podium by half a car length mainly because I didn't time my drafting pass just right.

Parity is always "elusive" unless you have a spec engine with a single engine builder. A lot of the complaining seems to be from people who don't seem to understand things like the "accordion effect" (where if you maintain a consistent time gap with a car ahead of you, you'll appear to catch them under braking and they'll appear to get away from you under acceleration), or that newer cars tend to be faster unless you want to spend a crapload of money on your older car.

As far as further splitting classes up, quite frankly I think that's a bit daft. Maybe it'd be a good idea at the regional level, but for Majors & the Runoffs we do need to look at either cutting classes or consolodating them. One of these days I'd like to get the Runoffs cut down to 4 days instead of 10. Then maybe my customers would be interested in going.

[R. Pare]

6.11.6. Using the Engine Self-Starter on Course

While on the course, a car may not be moved using the starting device, except to relocate to a position of greater safety or under provisions of 6.10.3.B.

[mblanc]

Wow, offline from apexspeed for a bit, and I had some reading to do.............


Really everybody ???

Changing a decades old rule because the sky might fall ???


Meanwhile, LOTS of people want a simple spec tire rule, but we just don't have time to get that done.............

But we can parse the 'might happen' and get that done timely............



Put me down for NO CHANGES TO ANYTHING EVER - UNTIL WE GET A SENSIBLE TIRE RULE

[nulrich]

Pretty sure the stock Honda Fit starter motor is specified in the FF engine section of the GCR. Does anyone believe this is not clear?

I believe the FIT is the only engine in the formula classes that specifies a starter motor. Certainly the starter motor is free for the Zetec, Kent, Pinto, and I believe all the FB engines. And definitely the alternator is free for those classes. An alternator is just a motor driven backwards.

You'd have to run a pretty tremendous voltage to get that starter motor to produce much torque at 6500 RPM.

You'd never get the FIT starter motor to produce any torque when the engine is turning 6500 rpm since it would be turning at some ridiculous RPM (there is gear reduction in the starter and also between the pinion and the flywheel).

But there are hundreds of thousands of examples of engines with combined starter/alternator motors driving around right now. Especially if you only need 1-2 hp where you could use a belt drive (there are many examples of mild hybrid cars with belt drive motor/generators). I could design such a system in my sleep and build it with parts I have in my shop right now.

It's not something a constructor would bother doing since it would be banned as soon as it was disclosed. But a team with a little creativity and some design resources could implement a system like that easily and few tech inspectors would detect it. I wouldn't be surprised if someone had done it already.

Nathan

[Jnovak]

A belt drive generator/motor is EASY.

[nulrich]

And before someone points out the FIT alternator is specified, there is an even easier way to gain an advantage with the FIT.

Install a lithium battery with a voltage of 16 V or so. Everything should work just fine at a slightly elevated voltage, but the alternator won't be producing current so the drag on the engine will be very small.

If the lithium battery has enough capacity to power the ECU, injectors and accessories for the duration of the race then you've just gained something like 1/2 - 1 hp depending on the alternator efficiency. And you haven't touched the engine or alternator.

Obviously older cars with minimal electrical demands have been using this strategy for years with lead acid batteries, but lithium batteries make it feasible (even easy) for modern injected cars with ECUs and data systems.

These are obvious examples. I don't give away the really good ideas for free.

Nathan

[LJennings]

These are obvious examples. I don't give away the really good ideas for free.

flux capacitor

[Parker]

Just to be clear, a standard automotive alternator like the ones used on the Fits and Zetecs, is not just a motor driven "backwards" or forwards.

You can apply all the current/voltage you want to the field and/or stator windings and you will not get useful torque at the pulley.

You would need rotary position sensors and control electronics to turn these into motors.

There certainly are many motor/generators (both new and old) out there, and they may come into play in junior formulas sooner rather than later.

[nulrich]

I'm not sure what alternator is installed on the FIT engine, but it could be an older style wound rotor alternator.

All of the Zetec engines I've seen have permanent magnet alternators (which are sometimes referred to as magnetos). They are just a brushless motor driven backward (backward in terms of torque and current flow, not rotational direction). That's standard practice for high performance race cars in 2014, since you can get more power from a smaller unit. Just like brushless motors have replaced "traditional" motors in all high performance applications.

You do need slightly more sophisticated electronics to "regulate" the voltage on a permanent magnet alternator. I think the units we've used cost about $75 retail.

I have a brushless motor controller sitting on my bench right now that would drive that alternator backwards and supply power to the engine. It costs $25. No sensors required, it commutates by measuring back EMF. Efficiency is about 98% at peak current (very low resistance FETs).

[Parker]

Interesting. I thought those Zetec magnetos were "one wire". Is there any way you can make that a motor with just one wire between the controller and the diodes or poles?

Can you post info on these magnetos and the brushless motor controller you referenced?

Thank you,

[John LaRue]

An interesting discussion, especially in light of the ever increasing push for "green technology" which is permeating motorsports (including SCCA).

Do I sense excitement from the FF/FC community to be leaders in "green technology" and hybrid power?

[Parker]

HA!

Did you notice how green Rosberg's car was in Singapore?

Superbly efficient! (or was it completely inefficient)

[DaveW]

Interesting. I thought those Zetec magnetos were "one wire". Is there any way you can make that a motor with just one wire between the controller and the diodes or poles?

Can you post info on these magnetos and the brushless motor controller you referenced?

Thank you,

The Zetec two-wire generators are Kubota "dynamos," not to my knowledge called magnetos. I think the two function somewhat differently.

See Nate's post for the correct version.

[nulrich]

Interesting. I thought those Zetec magnetos were "one wire". Is there any way you can make that a motor with just one wire between the controller and the diodes or poles?

Can you post info on these magnetos and the brushless motor controller you referenced?

Quicksilver sells them for the Zetec so I'll defer to Erik on what info he'd like to provide. They are actually a single-phase alternator/motor, so they have two wires and the regulator rectifies the output and regulates voltage via PWM (I assume, haven't put a 'scope on the output). I've heard them called dynamos, magnetos and generators. ("Magneto" is technically the proper term since they don't require any external power source nor do they commutate the windings.)

The controller is proprietary to a client of mine, so I can't provide any info on that particular one. But there are literally hundreds of similar brushless motor controllers out there. I have about a dozen of various types around here, some of which I helped design.

I have a perfect motor and controller for a green ERS for small bore formula cars and a really good source for the battery. It would make an excellent "push to pass" system but I doubt many SCCA competitors would be interested in opening that can of worms.

[Wren]

An interesting discussion, especially in light of the ever increasing push for "green technology" which is permeating motorsports (including SCCA).

Do I sense excitement from the FF/FC community to be leaders in "green technology" and hybrid power?

No

This thread has gone a bunch of different directions.

Does anyone know what the pro series is going to do with the fan situation? The SCCA should just do that.

[DaveW]

An interesting discussion, especially in light of the ever increasing push for "green technology" which is permeating motorsports (including SCCA).

Do I sense excitement from the FF/FC community to be leaders in "green technology" and hybrid power?

I should have seen the invisible smiley , which I suspected, but I missed it.

Absolutely not!

Too expensive and complex. A great way to screw up the "entry-level" formulas.

[Jnovak]

An interesting discussion, especially in light of the ever increasing push for "green technology" which is permeating motorsports (including SCCA).

Do I sense excitement from the FF/FC community to be leaders in "green technology" and hybrid power?

IMO, absolutely not John. The SCCA needs NOTHING that will increase the costs to race. I am always for the simplest and lowest cost racing possible. Not the way the SCCA has been moving lately, is it?

[Art Smith]

if anything constructive is to come of this wild goose chase, keeping in mind my expectations continue to be revised downward, hopefully some of the dialog will serve as a catalyst to get club level safety rules updated before we loose a competitor, volunteer worker, or member of a crew to an unsafe voltage arising from poor or damaged insulation. voltage is a club level safety concern, not an issue unique to FF/FC. batteries/cells are not the potential problem! six nominal 12Vdc batteries connected in parallel has a maximum voltage of 12Vdc. six nominal 12Vdc batteries connected in series has a maximum voltage of 72Vdc !! same batteries and very different lethality risk!!! limiting maximum battery voltage is NOT sufficient ! it's literally kids play to buy dc-to-dc converters to step voltage up or down, see International Rectifier: http://www.irf.com/ increasing voltage is the key to lower weight, smaller size, and more performance. two easy consumer electronics examples to extract this discussion from the abstract; 120Vac 3/4" variable speed reversible drills > 12Vdc cordless drills > 18Vdc cordless drills on steroids > ............ and 120Vac weedwacker/trimmers > 12Vdc cordless trimmers > 18Vdc cordless trimmers on steroids > 24Vdc cordless trimmers on steroids and HGH > ........ VOLTAGE is the root cause of dc lethality, voltage is the enabler of lower weight, smaller size, and more performance; and therefore maximum dc voltage permitted in the club's cars should be the objectively verifiable attribute that is controlled and not batteries. I have NO applicable experience in consumer electronics safety so am unable to offer a recommendation for the NUMBER needed for any updated rule. ditto the situations for current club level safety rules for flywheel energy storage systems, high pressure gas, and gas generators. it's also my opinion that energy recovery and re-use and auxillary electric propulsion do not have a place in FF/FC (maybe even all formula classes but they can speak for themselves when asked).

Nathan-
nice to see you participating again! reports of your departure from our world were clearly unfounded and not surprising given the source. facts, data, and objective rational logic are a plus to any dialog here.

the Pro Series never had a cooling fan problem (cooling fans are clearly non-compliant with the rules as currently written for alternate engine powered cars) unless you believe the Pro Series was concerned about the potential compliant use of cooling fans by 30-40 year old Kent powered cars......................


Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[scott fairchild]

If there is a proposed rule to limit voltage, make sure to exclude secondary ignition voltages, which are measured in kV.

[Art Smith]

Scott-

keeping in mind my background is not in electronics or electrical engineering, I've always thought of the ignition secondary as an AC square wave with eye watering amplitude, very narrow pulse width, extremely low duty cycle, and harmonics that make even a good violin envious. include an explicit exclusion for the ignition secondary to avoid confusion or add the exclusion and a ban on inverters (dc-to-ac converters) to preclude the obvious way around a dc limitation. ac voltage can also be lethal.....................

Art
artesmith@earthlink.net

[Rick Kean]

........ VOLTAGE is the root cause of dc lethality, voltage is the enabler of lower weight, smaller size, and more performance; and therefore maximum dc voltage permitted in the club's cars should be the objectively verifiable attribute that is controlled and not batteries.

How's this?

Maximum L.T. (low tension) DC Voltage permitted in FC/FF class cars is 13.75volts, measured (via Fluke Model 189 Multimeter, or its equivalent) from any point in the electrical system to ground, with or without engine running.

the Pro Series never had a cooling fan problem (cooling fans are clearly non-compliant with the rules as currently written for alternate engine powered cars) unless you believe the Pro Series was concerned about the potential compliant use of cooling fans by 30-40 year old Kent powered cars......................

So, due to the lack of a 'Fans are unrestricted' authorization item in Honda Fit section o. Cooling System, fans are prohibited because of the a.1 General section's: No modifications to this engine are allowed except where specifically authorized within these rules. This includes, but is not limited to, all fuel injection and engine management components, electrical, cooling and lubrication systems.

Is that the GCR logic in use here? Or, for instance, can I re-use the cooling fans I had on my car prior to Honda Fit conversion, as they are attached to my 'o. Cooling Systems 4. Radiator is unrestricted' rad?

[Peter Olivola]

This raises the question, if radiators are free and a function of the chassis, does that open the door to fans?

Speaking as one steward in a club with more stewards opinions than stewards, I read the lack of freedom in the Fit section vs the open fan allowance in the Kent/Cortina sections as a no, fans are not permitted in Fit powered cars regardless of what was in the car previously.

So, due to the lack of a 'Fans are unrestricted' authorization item in Honda Fit section o. Cooling System, fans are prohibited because of the a.1 General section's: No modifications to this engine are allowed except where specifically authorized within these rules. This includes, but is not limited to, all fuel injection and engine management components, electrical, cooling and lubrication systems.

Is that the GCR logic in use here? Or, for instance, can I re-use the cooling fans I had on my car prior to Honda Fit conversion, as they are attached to my 'o. Cooling Systems 4. Radiator is unrestricted' rad?

[Rick Kean]

Mmm...page 21 of the F1600 technical regulations:

q. Cooling System
Cooling system is unrestricted. Any radiator, fan, water pump and drive belt permitted.Pump/fan/generator drive belt: Unrestricted

Yes, the F1600 Kent-engined competitors' Cooling Systems are unrestricted!

So, Messrs Wright and Frog, why did Chip ask them to remove their fans?
Trying to avoid someone throwing a Fit perhaps?

(I had not made the connection that the fans in question were removed from Kents, not Fits until just earlier. Please correct me if I'm still all wet)

Damn, 2:46am; I need a sedative!

[problemchild]

Thanks Art, for bringing this to attention. My letter has been submitted for the recommended changes (as below).


FF
1. #14645 (Formula/Sports Racing Committee) FF and FC: Disallow Fans for Radiators
Thank you for your letter.
The CRB recommends eliminating the use of cooling fans in FF and FC cars so cooling systems are
not developed into aerodynamic systems in these cars.

Make the below changes:

Kent/Cortina:
Change 9.1.1.12.q: q. Cooling System Cooling system is unrestricted. Any radiator,
fan,water pump and drive belt permitted. Pump/fan/generator/alternator drive belt: Unrestricted.
Cooling fans are not allowed.

Honda Fit: Add 9.1.1.14.o.5.:
5.
Cooling fans are not allowed.

Pinto: Change 9.1.1.15.y.:y. Pump, fan, and generator/alternator drive pulleys are unrestricted.

Cooling fans are not allowed.

Zetec: Change 9.1.1.16.q. and .t.:
q. A liquid cooling system is mandatory, but radiator and water pump are unrestricted. Cooling fans
are not permitted
t. Pump, fan,and generator/alternator drive pulleys are unrestricted.

[swiftdrivr]

I couldn't give a rip about green tech in ANY race car, and it surely isn't likely to be good for FF. Make your transporter green, if you feel the need, but leave the race cars alone.
Just my 2 cents worth.

[reidhazelton]

Do I sense excitement from the FF/FC community to be leaders in "green technology" and hybrid power?

Easier fellers....I think this is sarcasm here from John. Are we really wound up so tight over this?

If so, we better outlaw model rocket engines 'cause I have heard someone with a plan to line up some Estes E-5s on the rear control arms and light them up at the sprint to the checkered at Leguna. Also, should outlaw putting the transponder on a shotgun shell and shooting it across the finish line. While we are thinking ahead we should also consider banning nuclear power in cars. I saw Wren working on that for the new Citation.

[Wren]

While we are thinking ahead we should also consider banning nuclear power in cars. I saw Wren working on that for the new Citation.

Yep, I've got a meeting set up in the mall parking lot with some Libyans who drive a VW van.