Frozen Tires

[dereklola]

Maybe I'm getting senile. I often keep any slightly used tires over the winter and use them for early practice sessions the first few race weekends the next year.

Here's the senile bit - this year's tires are still in my storage unit and it's been freezing for the past week (only 20degF today). Are they now useless - or should I just bring them home, let them warm up, then bag them for the winter (as I usually do) and see how they are next spring?

Thx - Derek

[DonR]

Not to worry, had new tires cold cycle
many times to -30c, did not seem to bother them.

[racerdad2]

Bring 'em home. They'll be ok for some fun laps during practice.

[DaveW]

I store most of mine outside in my trailer at temperatures sometimes below zero F. IMO, the only thing you need to be careful about is flexing them too much while they are still very cold (below 32F). The brittle point on some racing tread compounds can be above or close to that, which means you could actually crack a tire by flexing it when it is that cold. I have never had that happen to me, but it is a possibility.

[dereklola]

the only thing you need to be careful about is flexing them too much while they are still very cold (below 32F). The brittle point on some racing tread compounds can be above or close to that, which means you could actually crack a tire by flexing it when it is that cold. I have never had that happen to me, but it is a possibility.

Thx all -I'll stop worrying now. Derek

[stonebridge20]

Toyo Proxis race tires have a large warning lable on them that says to not let the tires get below 32F for what it's worth.

[dereklola]

- - large warning label on them - - not let the tires get below 32F.

Mike - I liked the other advice better - not to worry though - it's too late now - I'll bring them home, carefully, and let them warm up - then see what's what in spring. Derek

[racerdad2]

The old frozen tires won't have much grip left in them. Hence, fun for practice. Generally speaking, warm them up to mount & don't run race tires under 40º.

[DaveW]

The old frozen tires won't have much grip left in them. Hence, fun for practice. Generally speaking, warm them up to mount & don't run race tires under 40º.

When I ran GY's, they always sat over winter in the trailer, as I said above, down to near 0F sometimes. Over 20+ years of doing that, I never noticed that they were any the worse for that when I used them in the spring.

[racerdad2]

Excellent ! Thx Dave

[rickb99]

Actually this should be more deeply researched with Hoosier themselves. As, I see certain advantages to a long term very low temp storage. The volatile compounds used in the tires won't 'boil' off. Certainly worth asking Hoosier about.

[DaveW]

Actually this should be more deeply researched with Hoosier themselves. As, I see certain advantages to a long term very low temp storage. The volatile compounds used in the tires won't 'boil' off. Certainly worth asking Hoosier about.

That is a valid observation. Almost anything that can have a chemical reaction stores better at lower temperatures, as long as it is not damaged by freezing or other crystallization. Two-part paints, epoxies, tires, RTV rubber, etc. all belong in that grouping.

[stonebridge20]

[QUOTE]

I see certain advantages to a long term very low temp storage.

You should have seen what happened to a set of rubber drive donuts that a customer

INSISTED get Cryo processed. 32F is one thing but -300F turns rubber to dust !

[DaveW]

...stores better at lower temperatures, as long as it is not damaged by freezing or other crystallization...

...You should have seen what happened to a set of rubber drive donuts that a customer INSISTED get Cryo processed. 32F is one thing but -300F turns rubber to dust !

Might have been that crystallization thing...

[northarrowracing]

The old frozen tires won't have much grip left in them. Hence, fun for practice. Generally speaking, warm them up to mount & don't run race tires under 40º.

When I did my school back in March at Summit Point it was around 32 or below just about all weekend. I didn't have a gauge but it was snowing Sunday when we were finishing up and it snowed about 6 inches Sunday night so it was coooold. I ran some ancient Goodyears that came with the car and they had 0 grip but no sign of cracking.
My wife on the other hand said it wasn't all that cold because she burned one whole tank of gas out of the truck keeping the heater going. Oh well, I did promise her if she went along she wouldn't have to change a tire or get cold. Promise kept.
Ric

[racerdad2]

Honesty, I like hard tires with less grip. It's certainly not as fast, but more fun

[Lynn]

From Hoosier's web site:

Freeze Crack Advisory: This advisory addresses proper storage and use of Hoosier tires in cold conditions. Hoosier Tires, especially asphalt and hard compound tires, may experience Rubber Cracking if the tires are transported, crushed, flexed or stressed when frozen. The following guidelines are provided to avoid this problem.
1. Always store Hoosier Racing Tires indoors at temperatures above 32° F.
2. If tires have been subject to 32° F or less, allow them to warm to room temperature (about 70° F)
for a minimum of 24 hrs before tire is mounted, transported or flexed.
3. Always use spare tires not intended for future competition to store vehicles for prolonged periods
of time or winter transport.
4. If below freezing temperatures are expected, please consider shipping tires once more favorable conditions exist.
Do not use tires that have evidence of Freeze Crack Damage.

I have also read that freezing a tire can break the long chain polymers in the compound. This has a severe adverse effect on grip according to the article. I will keep searching to try to find the article.

I can say from experience that Hoosier R25b compound tires have no grip below 40 degrees on my Solo Vee.

[dereklola]

Might have been that crystallization thing...

For what it's worth one more comment I got (not on ApexSpeed) was that careful handling when frozen (less than 35degF) was necessary to avoid physical distortion or bending of the compound which could damage the long molecules. Maybe associated with Dave's crystallization thing. Or maybe the molecules are longer than when I was young.

edit: ah - same message as Lynn just wrote.

[Earley Motorsports]

[/QUOTE] 32F is one thing but -300F turns rubber to dust ! [/QUOTE]

Man I hope I don't go out to the garage in morning and find 4 piles of dust. It is cold here in the mid-west tonight

[924RACR]

Even high-performance street tires definitely can crack and die in the cold; there's standing warnings (from the tire mfgr) on the higher-end Michelin Cup tires for the Corvettes about avoiding those low temps. But it's very tire and brand dependent...

Thanks for including the specific warnings on the Hoosiers...

PS - you think it's cold in IL... -26F this AM coming to work (not in MI right now), wind chill to -40!!!

[EACIII]

I have trouble accepting the 32 or 35 warnings. At the spring and fall races in the northeast it is no uncommon top have the temp drop below 32 over night and we all race are cars the next day and I have yet to see any tires crack. Heck, I have raced my FF in 35 F weather at a late season race at Summit Point a number of years back. But maybe the rain that was falling kept the tires moist and prevented cracking!?!

32 is ther freezing point of straight water, has nothing to do with the compounds used in tires.

I think the it is just CYA by the manufactures.

Ed

[924RACR]

I think the it is just CYA by the manufactures.

It's not. Just because you haven't encountered it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

It's a legitimate warning; whether or not you choose to pay heed, well, that's your money.

[TedV]

It's not completely CYA. In my previous life as a tire guy I've mounted tires and been at races where the high was 28 degree F. Racers said the grip sucked BIG TIME and just wasn't fun.

different compounds are made with different chemicals. Yes it is true not all race tires will shatter at 31.9 degree F but I have seen many tires at the Jan nationals ( now majors) down in Florida with cold shatter marks in their tires. Imagine what a car windshield looks like when you hit it with a hammer. That kind of spider crack can be seen in the tire rubber. FV tires from the upper Midwest who had tires shipped down usually had this in their tires because the shippers wouldn't gently move tires. Throw, bounce, roll when -7 degree F will do some damage.

Tires are part of the expense of racing. You will prep your engine cooling system for winter right? Why not think about caring for your tires through the winter too? They may age and only be good for practice anyway if they sit for 6 to 8 months. Wrapped in black plastic bags between 50 to 70 degree F down in the basement or semi heated garage is a nice winter storage. Also keep them away from Ozone and UV light.

::edit:: Compounds, like those used in tires, may harden ( freeze) above 32 degree F. Biodiesel will jell between 35 to 40 degree F. Tires are not made of water. Since the tires guys wont tell you what the compound is made of, you can't figure out what the glass transition temp is. If your engine builder says don't rev the motor over 7 grand do you crank it to 9 grand and say the engine builder don't know what he is talking about? ;-)

[mmi16]

The old frozen tires won't have much grip left in them. Hence, fun for practice. Generally speaking, warm them up to mount & don't run race tires under 40º.

I just wish some of the races I have run would have had temps above 40! Talk about no grip!

[DaveW]

The old frozen tires won't have much grip left in them. Hence, fun for practice. Generally speaking, warm them up to mount & don't run race tires under 40º.

For clarification, IMO, race tires that have been "frozen" (cooled below their brittle point or glass-transition temperature), but have not been cracked or otherwise damaged by flexing while frozen, will almost always regain their grip and handling properties when warmed to normal racing temperatures.

There can always be exceptions to anything, but I have not seen any of my new or used race tires deteriorate (more than expected from normal aging) due to "freezing" in my 45 years of racing. YMMV.

[racerdad2]

Then my previouly frozen tires were just plain Old & (like myself) their lack of performance was due to Age & too many 'heat cycles'.

[Hardingfv32]

They had a 25 hour endurance race at Thunderhill in early Dec. During the night the temps dropped into the low 20's. Would this create complications for race tires?

Brian

[northarrowracing]

I tend to believe what DaveW says on this issue. It was one year ago today I drove to Boston to buy my car. It was in an unheated storage rental unit and the parking lot was covered in ice. The old Goodyear slicks were frozen and half flat. Against sound advice I did the March school in 25-35 degree weather on those tires. They survived, of course with no grip whatsoever. It was probably a risky thing to do and I wouldn't recommend it but as slow as I was going it didn't matter. The Hoosiers I bought later are now sleeping in a warm "bed" over one of those heated floor mats from Northern Tool with a couple of towels thrown over to hold in the heat. Those mats are cheap and use very little electricity. I keep one under the block in the garage or at the track in cold weather. Its almost as good as a heated garage.

Ric

[racerdad2]

Thx for the heads up on the heated floor mats !

[rickb99]

I don't know, I think you people are taking this cold damage way beyond 'normal'. There are tires up in Alaska working at -60 degrees every day and being driven hard by State Police.

I'm guessing they don't have a special cold temperature compound.

[DB4 Tim]

Different type of construction and I believe street tires have a different basic chemical make up from racing tires

I don't know, I think you people are taking this cold damage way beyond 'normal'. There are tires up in Alaska working at -60 degrees every day and being driven hard by State Police.

I'm guessing they don't have a special cold temperature compound.

[dereklola]

There are tires up in Alaska working at -60 degrees every day and being driven hard by State Police. I'm guessing they don't have a special cold temperature compound.

Street and police tire compounds and construction are way different from race tires.

My original question was about race/slick tires - Avons in my case, Hoosiers for others - and as Ric said I think DaveW's advice is most pertinent. I did use the word 'frozen' but meant nothing more than 'cold as ice'. I was not trying to suggest or relate to the crystallization point of modern race slick compounds.

Some other good points have been raised so thanks to everyone and DaveW in particular.

Derek (waiting for spring!)

[924RACR]

I don't know, I think you people are taking this cold damage way beyond 'normal'. There are tires up in Alaska working at -60 degrees every day and being driven hard by State Police.

I'm guessing they don't have a special cold temperature compound.

Similarly, I'm pretty sure they're not stupid enough to drive on race tires or street/track tires, like Pilot Sport Cups, etc.