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  1. #41
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    Chuck:

    I'm not sure I have any objection to the Hondas in Club Ford, er, Formula F. So far there are very few but I can see it becoming the thing to do as our engines life-out. My Nelson engine pulls great but is getting a little long in the tooth so I may consider the switch winter 2014/15.

    Phil, what do you think?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Wes Allen's Avatar
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    Default Honda vs. Ford???

    Dave and all
    The grass isnot always greener... I had a Honda. It's pretty,starts easy,doesn't leak, no vibration and suppose to last forever. But I would never consider one for a older Formula ford conversion. It will cost 10k-20k for a conversion. It is a completely new engine platform that you will have to learn. You will have to pack metric tools now. They say it is simple,but it takes an ECU and about 10 different sensors, plus coil packs to make it that way. So now you have a spares box with several thousand dollars in it. The Ford has lots more low end torgue. You will have to completely change your gearing to be fast in a Honda. The Honda is lighter but weighs more higher up, it will change the way the car handles. With all the new parts available for a Ford now it should last at least 50 hours with some care. The Williams in my Merlyn is 10 years old. We are pulling it for a refresh this weekend. You can refresh a ford at least three or four times for the cost of a conversion. When Honda 's came out there was lots of HPD support. Now that has waned and they aren't nearly as excited to help or work with cars at this level. All their effort has been directed to the Indy and Lemans series. I'm hardly a poster child for Honda,but it does have merit at the national or pro level. Sorry for my early morning rambles, but I thought I would share my experience. Plus I like the smell of 110
    octane in the morning!!!!
    Wes

  3. #43
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    Thanks Wes, that's the sort of first hand experience that helps to influence my decision.

    The cost of the spares package and the fact I would have to hook a computer up to my car are two things I was not looking forward to. I have to hook computers up to cars at work and it always seems to be hit and miss. "Oh, you didn't configure the whats-it to talk to the whos-it". "Oh, that won't work with THAT level Windows unless you do....." At least I understand Webers and points.

    Having said that, I don't think there is any reason to exclude someone from running CFF with a Honda if they want to. Do you?

  4. #44
    Senior Member Wes Allen's Avatar
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    Dave
    You don't have to connect a computer to the car. It just has an onboard ECU the size of a cigar box that manages the engine. I am not opposed at all to Honda's running in our class. Presently they are very even. I'm just a little "old school" and like my Kent.

  5. #45
    Senior Member andyllc's Avatar
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    Hopefully all regions will opt for inclusion rather than exclusion. It doesn't make sense why anyone anywhere would want to turn away entries.
    Whether someone wants to convert or not is up to them. Some will find the benefit of it, some won't. For those that are 'lifers' in CF I think it makes a lot of sense.
    We have had our car since 1989 and while it was expensive to convert I think my father (he can chime in if he wants) would do it again. We have had some issues. Actually we have only had one issue and Honda has worked with us pretty steadily to get it fixed and our issue has been isolated to our car/engine, nobody else with a Honda has had the same problem so I don't think it is a big problem.
    We like the fact that we haven't had to wipe up one drop of oil in two years, we haven't had to pull the engine at all in that time period, we haven't had to have a jumper battery in two years and the list goes on. For us (everyone is different), we like having the Honda. It makes it much simpler to go to the track. This year at ARRC we made one shock change, cleaned the car, changed tires, put fuel in it and drove. We never had to do anything else and that is very nice. For us, we know we have an engine that will be competitive and for us we haven't had to change our setups at all since converting (other than now we add lead to the car). We have a decently quick car that is now more reliable for us than it was before. We had a data system on the car before and we love that with the Honda we can choose to tap into all of the sensors that the Honda has. You don't have to by any means, and we didn't at first. However, I think it is nice to know Oil pres/temp, RPM, Water temp, Air inlet temp, fuel pressure, batt voltage, throttle position, all by just tapping into the wiring that is on the car.

  6. #46
    Contributing Member Roux's Avatar
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    Default Spares package is not nearly that high

    I have to disagree with Wes. I have killed my Honda with low oil level/pressure and no driver action. Completely my fault. Con rod was $65, brand new. Crank was $550 brand new. No machining, no guessing, just wrenching to put it all back to new. Had I done that to one of my kents it would have been way worse on my wallet. The computer that controls the engine is plugged in once and you never look at it again. Don't know why the computer shows up as a negative.

    I bought a complete engine for $750 to have a full set of spares including sensors, in the trailer at all times. I did spring for two new crank sensors ($46 each) and two ignition coil packs at about $110 each to have in the spares box since they are known to fail once in a long while. I really am ready for just about any repair now that I have that in stock. I do not carry a spare ECU, but I have also never heard of one failing.

    If you asked me which engine to invest in I would lean on the side of the Honda, but I do have a Kent coming together right now to go into the Royale, and have to admit that $12K for the Honda kit is whats driving that. If it was 8K I would be changing over
    Last edited by Roux; 11.14.13 at 9:21 PM.

  7. #47
    Contributing Member CF56's Avatar
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    Just to add a little to Andy's comments, I think the Honda vs. Kent decision depends upon the expected duration of CF/FF class participation. If one plans to be in the class long term, as I do, going with the Honda seems like a "no brainer". Yes the conversion costs a lot of money but over time it will be easily recovered in Kent engine rebuilds not to mention the other expenses and hassles. As Andy said, I bought the Crossle in 1989. I plan to race it for many more years and some day Andy will inherit the car.

    I always had the Kent professionally built but when I had the chance to get away from buying brake cleaner by the case to clean up all the oil, no longer having to lap or adjust valves, change jets etc. I was all in. I love road racing formula cars. If I wanted to be an engine tuner I would probably have gone into drag racing. Our Honda conversion has not been perfect but we've had excellent support from HPD. We had a good Kent but it was a happy day for me when it was handed off to the buyer. I won't go back to the Kent.
    Kevin
    Crossle 35F
    Van Diemen RF02

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