What would be the Ultimate FS

[Rick Eskola]

Just curious, what would be the ultimate or killer FS? Chassis, motor, aero package. My thoughts without really sitting down and reading the rules would be a F1000 with a DSR motor, and some ground effects (tunnels). Would the current F1000 chassis be able to handle that kind of power and stress.
Any thoughts!

Rick Eskola

[Stan Clayton]

Just curious, what would be the ultimate or killer FS? Chassis, motor, aero package. My thoughts without really sitting down and reading the rules would be a F1000 with a DSR motor, and some ground effects (tunnels). Would the current F1000 chassis be able to handle that kind of power and stress.
Any thoughts!

Rick Eskola

A 2004-spec F1 car, with the 3L V-10, better aero and tires than today.

Or, more realistically for an SCCA club racer...a modern Atlantic with a turbo-charged engine?

[RussMcB]

Way back when FS was first introduced, they had a rule limiting the size or weight of the car. They didn't want huge, super fast cars (like Indy Cars) mixed in with regional club racers. I think it was enforced at homologation request time. However, that restriction may no longer be in place. The main reason for FS at the time was to provide a playing field for cars like Fran Am, F3, Barber Saab, etc., not to create a class for open wheel monsters (i.e. early Can Am).

I would think (similar to Stan's thoughts) you should look at the type of car that is going fastest in club racing today, and eliminate some of its restrictions. I think an FB with DSR engine would be scary fast, but I might be inclined to go with a tub car rather than tube frame.

Fun to think about.

[glenn cooper]

a late model carbon fibre tubbed F Renault with a built GSXR thou, or a turbo Hayabusa.

[Matt King]

Or a turbo Powertec V-8. Hayabusa x2 FTW!

[Rick Kirchner]

F3000 with an offy......

[Herman Pahls]

Since I have a FB with a 2007 GSXR 1000 and a stock 2008 Hayabusa engine I was considering experimenting and repowering the FB with the Busa for FS.
I find the torque of the Busa easier for me to drive faster in my over weight CSR then when it had an outdated underpowered 03 Honda 954.
What performance differences can I expect going to a 40# heavier engine that does not rev as high but has more torque and horsepower than the GSXR 1000?
I would have to gear up due to redline differences.
Would I use the same Hoosier tire sizes common to FB?
The weight of the FB with out driver and fuel will go from 800 to approx. 840 #'s.
I will appreciate any comments or calls.
Thanks Herman Oregon 541 404 6464

[formulasuper]

If I had 10 grand to put a supercharger & all the required fixin's on my Busa powered RT5 I believe it would be quite fast. It has turned mid 125's at Road Atlanta on old tires with a $1500 Ebay stock Busa 1300, no Power Commander.

[Stan Clayton]

What performance differences can I expect going to a 40# heavier engine that does not rev as high but has more torque and horsepower than the GSXR 1000?

I think the ultimate performance will be very similar, though as you speculate, I suspect the car will be somewhat easier to drive with the Busa engine.

I would have to gear up due to redline differences.

Almost certainly, though it might be as simple as a front sprocket change.

Would I use the same Hoosier tire sizes common to FB?

I'd use the 8" and 10", but yes, use the same tires. No need to go up to Pro Mazda or Atlantic sizes.

Most of all, have fun...it sounds like a kick-in-the-pants fun car!

[S Lathrop]

This is motor racing, so why not a Lola T97 with a 5L V8. I think there must be some V8 version of the old Buick V6 that would allow you to change to the V8 and still use all the mounting setup from the V6.

I have been on the track racing with F5000 cars. I was racing FSV at the time. You could feel a F5000 approach from behind. It felt like they shook the track as they went by. Now that is motor racing.

[Stan Clayton]

This is motor racing, so why not a Lola T97 with a 5L V8. I think there must be some V8 version of the old Buick V6 that would allow you to change to the V8 and still use all the mounting setup from the V6.

I have been on the track racing with F5000 cars. I was racing FSV at the time. You could feel a F5000 approach from behind. It felt like they shook the track as they went by. Now that is motor racing.

Steve, I think the original aluminum-block BOP V8 is that engine. It's still in production by Rover (for the Land Rover and Ranger), and is readily available at reasonable prices. Lots of go-fast parts available for it, as well, and it comes in displacements up to 5.5L, IIRC.

[formulasuper]

Reviewing the current FS class rules I see the only weight restriction is a minimum of 750 lbs without driver. Like Russ said, the original FS max weight restriction has disappeared from the rules & since I know there are racers with unlimited budgets, why not a twin turbo monster V8 in an older IndyCar chassis or F5000. That ought to be a good mix with the FV's since all open wheel cars are reportedly going to be combined for all regional qualifying sessions in the SEDIV this year. (FS is a regional only class.)

[Rick Ross]

I vote for the 5L V8! However, if you do not have a Lola T97 handy, then I think that Stan's idea is the most practical (modern Atlantic chassis with a mega motor). You definitely want a carbon tub -- much stiffer and safer than a tube frame, and you will be going very fast in this type of car. Make sure that the tub you select will allow the use of full ground effects. Some flat bottom designs have tubs which may not easily allow the use of full-size tunnels. Also be sure that the suspension and drive train can handle the increased loads associated with the increased hp and cornering speeds.

[Ty_Handke_83]

I'd like to put of of those future 1.6 litre F1 engines in my Ralt. Yet again, the weak powerplant that's in it now already has the car too fast to be safe with the local competition.

It's kinda off topic, but right now it's probably making about 205-210HP, and a few years ago when I bought it, was at a test day at Mosport, I was running 1:20's easy, could probably get down to the high/mid teens if I pushed. I was on track with all other open wheel cars, one of them was an FST running 2:05-2:10 laps. It's not all that pleasant lapping a car every 2-3 laps, on top of other slower cars.
Not safe, or fun in my mind
but anyways.

Another option would be a Swift .016, and put a turbo on the 2.3 that comes with it, you should be able to get up to 500HP, if not more.

[mousecatcher]

Just curious, what would be the ultimate or killer FS? Chassis, motor, aero package. My thoughts without really sitting down and reading the rules would be a F1000 with a DSR motor, and some ground effects (tunnels). Would the current F1000 chassis be able to handle that kind of power and stress.

Ultimate? Definitely not a tube frame car.

Outside of the truly ultimate but probably not realistic ex-F1 car, I'd say a champ car. I love those things.

[PMD]

I think the powerplant of choice for some low(ish) cost would be either Powertech or Hartley (still around??) double 'Busa 2.8 or 3.0 litre with the Quaiffe gearbox. WELL over 400HP. Tunnel car, carbon tub for sure.

[Stan Clayton]

Since it seems to be the time of the year for this topic again...

How about a Swift 014 with a turbocharger? It's gearbox is way better than any earlier FA, and the version of the engine used for FA from the late 80's until the 016 came along was originally supercharged in the street car, so it can surely withstand the punishment of a turbo. The Gurney Eagle GTP Mk1 used a 1.4L Toyota engine that was essentially a short-stroked 4age, and it was rated at 700+ hp. I can't help but believe that a turbo'd 4age could get the job done.

[Jnovak]

I think it would have to be a modern composite chassis with lots of Df, a turbo Atlantic of some form has to be the way to go IMO.

Another idea might be a VERY light car with a turbo bike engine. any of the current FB cars would be at least 150lbs too heavy. I am thinking 850lbs ready to race.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

[-pru-]

Another idea might be a VERY light car with a turbo bike engine. any of the current FB cars would be at least 150lbs too heavy. I am thinking 850lbs ready to race.

Thanks ... Jay Novak

How about a Piper DF5 F1000 w a Turbo Busa? I recall reading rumors of this type of set up to challenge the Waterford overall track record ....

[Stan Clayton]

Another idea might be a VERY light car with a turbo bike engine. any of the current FB cars would be at least 150lbs too heavy. I am thinking 850lbs ready to race.

Jay, our Ralt RT-41 weighs 1060 lbs without fuel or driver, but otherwise ready to race. That's with an iron block engine and separate gearbox. Lose those items like converting an FC to FB and one would be right at your hypothetical weight of 850...

[TTMRacing]

a late model carbon fibre tubbed F Renault with a built GSXR thou, or a turbo Hayabusa.

I'll second that!

Mike G.

[RussMcB]

I assume "ultimate" in the context of this thread means fastest, but if budget is a factor, a Club FM would be a fun starting point. Admittedly not the fastest chassis or aero, but if not limited by FM rules you could make it pretty fast. I'll bet a lot of CFM drivers have fantasized about what they could do to their cars in FS.

[Rick Kirchner]

a 3-rotor in just about anything....... heck - put a blower on each rotor.

Unfortunately the radiator, oil cooler, and exhaust for that beast would weigh as much as the motor!

[provamo]

circa mid-eighties IMSA GTP twin turbo Buick V6 in a nineties Lola Lites car

[B17overhead]

The next step beyond this is probably NOT bike motored cars-but bikes are probably still an economical alternative. Graeme is apparently leapfrogging over the bike motors and F-1 technology now to develop an electric powered hillclimb car. Having watched even turbocharged Hayabusa formula cars running in this class, the V6 Cossy's and this V-10 Cossy appear to have outdone them all.

Graeme's V-10 sounds better than anything you may EVER hear-even in current lame overly-shrill-sounding watered down F-1 now. See attached video links for Graeme Wight's record-beating hill climb car using F1 V10 technology. 600-700 HP with 3.4L Arrows Cosworth V-10.

One of the best sounds to be heard at Shelsley Walsh. Watch for the black lines as Graeme opens the throttle all the way for the Finish Line straight. (about the 52 sec point in the 1st video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFMuXe80-a4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bk89EqfGme4


Automotive production car motor still a player?

Watch what a BMW straight 6 is capable of: Sports racer video on a less hilly course where the driver FRANZ TSCHAGER almost puts it into the railings about 5 times but prevails to win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=191HU...eature=related



-Chuck

[Bob Wright]

http://www.race-cars.com/carsold/rey...07716305ss.htm

[blewbayou]

Chassis: Carbon fiber monocoque Dallara T12
Aerodynamic: Drag Reduction System (DRS)
Engine: Zytek Motorsport V8 ZRS03 ) 3,396cc - Naturally aspired. 530bhp at 9,250rpm. 445Nm at 7,250rpm
Transmission: Ricardo 6-speed sequential gearbox with Shiftec pneumatic control
Brakes: Carbon
Length / Width / Height: 5,070 / 1,930 / 1,048mm
Wheelbase: 3,125 mm
Front/rear track: 1,630 / 1,529mm
Fuel tank capacity: 110 L
Weight (unladen): 623 kg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REDbwTxbkwo

[tige00]

I would go with a turbo mazda peripheral port 4 rotor in a current atlantic chassis and make over 1000 bhp now that is unbeatable .

[Kazis31]

GP3 chassis with GP2 power plant .
That should smoke everything.
Including your bank account.

I had to pitch in ,,too tempting.


Audi LMP2 would be great too.

[tige00]

Nice but the gp2 power plant wont make more than a 1000 plus hp mazda

[Kazis31]

To be honest i don't think that chassis would last 5 hours with 1000 hp motor.
Also might be very hard to drive without totally loosing control under heavy throttle.
But it is a very fun idea.

[Kazis31]

Still ,i don't think 2004 F1 could be beaten if dinero isn't an issue.
Look up Ferrari Clienti days at laguna seca on youtube ,you'll get the idea.

[Swift17]

This is motor racing, so why not a Lola T97 with a 5L V8. ....

I have been on the track racing with F5000 cars. I was racing FSV at the time. You could feel a F5000 approach from behind. It felt like they shook the track as they went by. Now that is motor racing.

I tested once at PBIR and John Gunn came by in his Gunn's Goodies Lola 332 -whew !! I am not sure to this day how my face shield remained on ...........

OPTION:

I understand the "leased" and last Champ Cars are in a warehouse in the "Georgia Mountains" ALL OF THEM - the rumor was/is they were bought not knowing/not caring they did NOT come with their Cosworth Motors - the plan to 'electrify" them seeming to be the plan

How cool of a car/FS would be to to have those chassis retro-equipped with a latest gen all ally Chevy crate motor (Z06 -LT-4) -- hell, there may be enough interest to start another class to race on the F1600/2000/AtL weekends - F6000 .... and hang on !!!

[glenn cooper]

I tested once at PBIR and John Gunn came by in his Gunn's Goodies Lola 332 -whew !! I am not sure to this day how my face shield remained on ...........

OPTION:

I understand the "leased" and last Champ Cars are in a warehouse in the "Georgia Mountains" ALL OF THEM - the rumor was/is they were bought not knowing/not caring they did NOT come with their Cosworth Motors - the plan to 'electrify" them seeming to be the plan

How cool of a car/FS would be to to have those chassis retro-equipped with a latest gen all ally Chevy crate motor (Z06 -LT-4) -- hell, there may be enough interest to start another class to race on the F1600/2000/AtL weekends - F6000 .... and hang on !!!

That bolded part WAS the intent, but those engines do not fit those chassis...

[provamo]

"but those engines do not fit those chassis"...

we have hammers, tape, and wire!!!

[Brett Lane]

The new supercharged Kawasaki 1 liter bike/motor making 300hp? In an F1000?

[Jnovak]

The new supercharged Kawasaki 1 liter bike/motor making 300hp? In an F1000?

Who wants one? I will build it.

[Dan Lipperini Jr]

Just a thought.

http://toledo.craigslist.org/cto/4808025642.html

[provamo]

just a thought.

http://toledo.craigslist.org/cto/4808025642.html

holy toledo !