Restrictors Recommended for 2015

[Jnovak]

The only way any chassis or crush structure helps the driver in a crash is through deformation of the many crushable structures around the driver. Without those crushable structures the driver will be in a world of hurt whether the chassis is tubular or composite.

My opinion is that a proper tubular structure can be very good with adequate crushable structures around the cockpit.

One of the biggest advantage to a composite chassis is that they are much "cleaner" on the inside so the driver has less chance of puncture or tube impact loads on arms and legs etc.

[urbanimports02]

Ok, must admit first, I have not read many of the posts in this thread, but have spoken with many competitors. We would have been fine with the proposed restrictor rule and did loads of dyno testing and track testing with the restrictors and lost money and sleep(returned home one night after 5am after leaving GDRE) glad to see we ended up where I have prefered all along, unrestricted. A few quick facts...
1) the 2011 Kawi is not new, it came out in 2011 and was put in a car in 2011
2) the 2011 Kawi makes more peak power, less mid, and the gear box is more of a **** box(your graphs and charts will not show this)
3) the "engine of the year" HAS NEVER HAPPENED! R1 hailed for like 5-6years in DSR and FB in the beginning and the Gsxr has hailed ever since then(2007-2008ish??)Now you fear the Kawi which again, came out in 2011.
4) Gsxr set many track records in 2014 and won many races, 3 years after the "new" Kawi, and still no one is "required to change"
5) Kawi finished 1st, 5th, 7th, and 10th at the runoffs, Suzuki all positions in between. JRO finished 1st and was the current track record holder, so let's give him and his skills a little credit here. I know his fastest lap of the weekend was very near what he did in his old Stohr with Gsxr power. I guess I could understand if a nobody suddenly knocked off the previous years champions all because he had a "new" motor
6) there is no definitive proof that the Kawi or any other new motor is better then the current Gsxr motor, just loads of charts, graphs, opinions, and theories.
7) this class was never meant to be spec, nor were motors ever meant to be made equal. It was meant for 1L engines, up to you to decide which strikes your fancy. (Honda cbr1000rr and 2008-2010 zx10 are oddly overlooked motors, either capable of hanging with the Gsxr....according to testing I have been involved with, not what I heard from a guy who knows a guy, check out the sports racers in australia and a few classes in Europe)

GC, I bought our last 2 2011 zx10's for under $3k only missing headers which we don't neeed anyway

Light weight Kawi powered car has been done before, that was 10th place at the runoffs. 1005lbs (post race)with dry sumped 2012 Kawi and 210lb driver. The elite guys at the front will remain the elite regardless of engine. Thus the comparison to JRO's times vs his Stohr Gsxr times. JRO would likely have done similar times in a Gsxr powered JDR

I for one choose the Kawi. Why? Because it is cool, and the Gsxr is boring to me, been done before. That is the appeal to some here, the open rule structure which allows tinkering, but you don't have to.....
Merry Christmas everyone!

[glenn cooper]

Damn Jessie! - You got a double smokin' deal on those engines!!
I can't touch a Gen 4 Kawi car kit for anywhere near that these days (Nor could I, EVER).
Then there's the dry sump pan required for the Kawi (approx 2k), which does not allow fitment of a wet sump pan (I know a guy who makes an excellent dry sump kit :O).

As to my crash at Runoffs/'13: Even though it was top of 6th gear, I did not come to a sudden stop, rather glancing hits that were absorbed by the suspension.
The fact that I did not have any bruising, nor blood drawn was part miracle, and part RFR being large enough in the cockpit to have a really, really, REALLY significant seat fitted which not only had very generous side thickness, but also approx 12" behind my tailbone.

I shudder to think how that hit would have felt if I was in a car that the chassis tubes were so close from L to R as to allow about the thickness of a piece of neoprene to act as impact absorbtion...

[R. Pare]

There is one thing everyone should know about Coops crash - the Firman is the only F1000 chassis I know of that meets FIA crash tests specifications. This is not a bash at other chassis but I can't help but think it might have made a difference.

Correction - it is the only one that has actually undergone the actual tests. More than likely, every other chassis out there would also pass the tests with flying colors, and in some cases actually perform better. Not to knock the RFR, but it is nothing special in this regard.

One of the biggest advantage to a composite chassis is that they are much "cleaner" on the inside so the driver has less chance of puncture or tube impact loads on arms and legs etc.

These chassis are allowed interior panels that can be just as clean as any composite structure, and IMHO every chassis should have them - no excuses nowadays. As Dr. Melvin puts it: "It is amazing just how much force the human body can take - as long as the body is not penetrated."

[Jnovak]

These chassis are allowed interior panels that can be just as clean as any composite structure, and IMHO every chassis should have them - no excuses nowadays. As Dr. Melvin puts it: "It is amazing just how much force the human body can take - as long as the body is not penetrated."

You are absolutely right Richard properly done interior panels are great.

[Gearslingr]

John Paul wrote:
2) A fresh gsxr will cost you $5k right now and a kawi maybe $3k. So if you spend a few more bucks converting your car from gsxr to kawi it'll probably cost the same. Plus if you can't afford to convert your car then this sport isn't for you ( I know I'm a dick that speaks the truth).

Just found this one... http://www.ebay.com/itm/251786140893...S:3160&vxp=mtr



Doug

[10rmotor]

Just found this one... http://www.ebay.com/itm/251786140893...S:3160&vxp=mtr



Doug

Doesn't mean it will sell, especially if earlier years are the same motor.

[sprocketmensch]

So Kawis have started to win or set fastest laps at many or most of the recent events on the East Coast. Is it time to institute the restrictor rule and bring parity back to FB/F1000? If we expect to see this class grow, we can't have an engine "du jour" available to only the wealthy. What will the Kawi guys say when a better engine shows up?

I'd like to see development restricted to the subtler areas like aero, drag, suspension rather than just stick in a higher HP engine.

Thoughts?

[urbanimports02]

Who ever said there was supposed to be parity???? Rules say any 1L engine, not any 1L engine as long as it makes the same power as yours. Plus it's not engine du jour, it came out nearly 5 years ago. Let this idea die, please, then we will get more interest when the wieners quit whining.

Plus, JR has been winning or setting fastest laps with a Kawi, not Kawi's in general. He also ran a fast lap of 1.23.7 at last years runoffs with the Kawi and a well developed car. He still holds the track record at a 1.23.3 with his Gsxr powered Stohr(how many runoffs has a stohr won?) so looks like the Kawi is a .4sec deficit. Face it, JR is wicked fast. All the west coast guys got to follow him around for years, your turn on the left coast.

[sccadsr31]

Jesse,
LOL
Didn't mean the right coast WE are the LEFT coast...

David

[urbanimports02]

Haha, I was looking down....

[sccadsr31]

Hay I have always looked up to you....

[RobLav]

I'm long out of this restrictor BS... but it seems to me Lime Rock Park is east coast. Last I looked, I still had the SCCA race lap record set in 2009 with a 2006 Yamaha R1 engine and grossly oversprocketed in the rear. (6th gear BEFORE the downhill! and with 6" and 8" FC rims). It was also my first ever race completion in FB. Surely the much more modern GSXR and ZX-10R engines should have beaten that by now. And I was only an OK driver. JR would be in the 48 seconds per lap there. Engine HP disparity is NOT the issue.

Hint hint for FB: LRP can be run flat from the lefthander to Big Bend with appropriate aero settings.

[JerryH]

Actually Jessie, when the FB ad hoc committee was created, the mandate from SCCA was to cap the speeds of the cars (not slow them down as some thought).

The committee did a ton of work to find a way to do that. Many options were discussed at great length. Restricting engine output was the only viable way to do that. Some other methods were examined, but inlet restrictors (different for each engine) was the only way to limit engines in way that kept all existing engines competitive (not equal, but close enough to be competitive).

The Kawi obviously has more power. Anyone who argues otherwise either hasn't seen the two best gsxr powered driver/car combos (Jeremy Hill and Alex Mayer) being handily out run on the straights everywhere.....or they are trying to protect their advantage for as long as they can.

The rules have (since the beginning) stated that inlet restrictors could be implemented at any time. The intent was obviously to limit an engine horsepower race.

Jessie, you will sell dry sumps to people converting their car to Kawi power, so I can see your vested interest. BUT.....if you think about it, most gsxr cars are wet sump.....but the top gsxr cars are all dry sump. Mayer and Hill are both dry sump. Mayer only recently made the change....and it definitely helped. YOU WILL SELL DRY SUMPS TO GSXR GUYS WHEN THEY REALIZE THIS. So either way is good for you.

The very best thing for the class (and the pro series) is to allow all the existing car/engine packages to compete with some hope of being competitive. Otherwise, many will run fewer races, or leave the class entirely. Our numbers are way down this year. Since most are gsxr cars, what does that tell you.

Converting a car to Kawi power is no easy task. Many do not have the time, money, facilities, or possibly even the skills needed to do it. That will certainly limit how many can (or will) make the change.

There are a lot of cars sitting in garages...being run infrequently or not at all. Let's find a way to being them back. The survival of the class could well depend on what we do now.

I have heard many guys say "no reason to go to the runoffs unless you have a kawi".
The same comment has been made about the pro series.....SO ....YES IT IS TIME FOR RESTRICTORS.

Jerry Hodges

[David Locke]

Mayer and Hill are both dry sump. Mayer only recently made the change....and it definitely helped. YOU WILL SELL DRY SUMPS TO GSXR GUYS WHEN THEY REALIZE THIS.

"Helped" him in what way? If you run a wet pan that ensures good oil pressure under both heavy braking and high lateral Gs and the oil runs at the optimum temperature (all as confirmed by the data), what sort of benefit are you saying a dry sump provides?

[urbanimports02]

David, guys have recently revisited the challenge I suggested a few years back and did there own testing as I sugested years ago. Many found there is an actual advantage beyond oil pressure and keeping engines alive. One thing most guys were doing was complaining of Kawi power when they were not comparing fairly. See, all of the Kawis are running my dry sump. Most of the Gsxr's were wet except for hill.

My position has nothing to do with vested interest. I make the most money off of Gsxr kits. They are easier and faster to produce. I sold 8 Gsxr kits last month and 3 Kawi, so it has nothing to do with selling Kawi kits. I actually just sold another gsxr kit this morning. I simply do not want to see this class get neutered. Guys have been complaining about stuff that simply has not happened. JR is kicking all your butts and that is it. Maybe they have that new firman pretty sorted as well??? Come on you are grasping for straws. As I said, JR did a 1.23.3 with a gsxr powered stohr at Laguna. Have any of you other cars/drivers come close to that?? You are comparing yourselves to one driver who would still kick your ass with a restrictor or a gsxr. We put the Kawi in 3 years ago. Back then we were running a 1.27. We then got into the 26's and then at the runoffs test we got to a 25.2. Things fell apart for the runoffs with a best of 1.26. We then did a lot of work to the car with new brakes including pedal assembly all the way out to calipers and rotors and the driver went to work analyzing every corner, a new front wing and 2 weeks ago we finally got into the 23's even with a blipper hose having fallen off. Point being the Kawi was not the magic, the car and driver were. You are comparing new cars with all the bells and wistles to cars without them and even 15 year old conversion cars. You are trying to ruin what makes this class cool. Read the rule book, and make the best car you can within those rules. OR run what you have and enjoy. The guy with all the latest greatest will always be the fast guy and that is true in EVERY class except srf, fe, etc. which you are free to switch to if that is the formula you prefer.

[sprocketmensch]

I was not only referring to JR. He is a great racer, don't get me wrong, and he has excellent support in N Belling but that car is just not that slippery and if you watch it pass the best GSXR powered cars, as Jerry mentions, the advantage is obvious. The other car is Jason Slahor's Kawi powered Citation (Rob L's ex). They got the bugs worked out after technical problems sidelined them at the Glen and the car was FAST at NJMP two weeks ago. Good design in the Citation but the power plant is significant.

[teddale]

as I said in a earlier thread..{
there was a new record for P2 as well not sure about other classes. the old tack record was J Hill at 1.47.569. **** that Kawasaki is so fast we beet by a 10th. And in the first race we won by a 10th from mayer. so guys we need to start the letters }

As I remember didn't JR beat Mayer and Hill with a GSXR. We went with the Kawasaki Because of reliability and that reason only. We had a kawi all last year ZERO problems, ran the same engine all year and run offs.This year the kawi has 4 weekends on it and a million laps testing. So you GSXR guys how many engines' have you gone thru this season. The fact that we work on the car day and night and weekends between races changing stuff trying to get that extra tenth out of it. Has nothing to do with JR being fast either. JR is in Daytona This weekend testing I'm in the garage doing 10 hour days working on his car. If the kawi was that fast do you think we would go to these lengths to win. We would just rely on the extra power. We win because we out work most people and JR out drives most people' Just my 2 cents

[David Locke]

David, guys have recently revisited the challenge I suggested a few years back and did there own testing as I sugested years ago. Many found there is an actual advantage beyond oil pressure and keeping engines alive. One thing most guys were doing was complaining of Kawi power when they were not comparing fairly. See, all of the Kawis are running my dry sump. Most of the Gsxr's were wet except for hill.

Again, I ask, what kind of an (actual) advantage? Are you (and Jerry) saying that using a dry sump results in more peak horsepower or more low end torque (or both)? If so, how much more? And why would this be the case, if the pressure and temperature are where they should be when using a wet sump?

[urbanimports02]

David, if I told you, you wouldn't belive me.....it's the way of the forum and the reason I quit posting on here a long time ago. Everyone thought I was just trying to sell parts. I now suggest you do or pay to have your own dyno testing done. This is the stuff these guys that are beating you are doing. Ask Nicholas how much time he has spent in George's shop testing dry sump. As ted has said, this Kawi is freakin reliable. We have been running the same 2 motors for 3 years. We too have been busy busy busy dialing in the car. Take one look at Rod Rices Stohr and you will see it looks nothing like a Stohr. Not just her clothes, everything has been changed and improved.

[David Locke]

I now suggest you do or pay to have your own dyno testing done. This is the stuff these guys that are beating you are doing.

What?? I run a 1000cc in P1, not FB.

[10rmotor]

David, I'm surprised that you don't know why a dry sumped motor makes more Hp. Its real simple. A wet sump motor, even with a good baffle plate above the oil pan, has the oil whipped up in the crank. It should be obvious that this extra internal drag costs Hp. Now, keep all the oil in an external dry sump tank, and perhaps even draw a bit of vacuum in the crank case, and viola, more Hp.

Sure, you've added a few extra oil lines and a tank, and so a bit of extra weight, but if you gain 10 Hp and better oiling, it is more than offset. Besides, at WOT in sixth gear, those few extra pounds are insignificant, your main enemy is drag, so I'm real surprised that some would say JRs car isn't slippery. Perhaps he just has it trimmed out so that the overall drag number is lower than the competition.

[David Locke]

David, I'm surprised that you don't know why a dry sumped motor makes more Hp. Its real simple. A wet sump motor, even with a good baffle plate above the oil pan, has the oil whipped up in the crank. It should be obvious that this extra internal drag costs Hp. Now, keep all the oil in an external dry sump tank, and perhaps even draw a bit of vacuum in the crank case, and viola, more Hp.

Ted, you should know by now that I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as you.

[10rmotor]

Ted, you should know by now that I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as you.

I never assume that about anybody

[Gary Slahor]

sprocketmensch wrote:

"The other car is Jason Slahor's Kawi powered Citation (Rob L's ex). They got the bugs worked out after technical problems sidelined them at the Glen and the car was FAST at NJMP two weeks ago. Good design in the Citation but the power plant is significant."

Just FYI.....last year at NJMP we were 1.5 seconds faster in our NovaDiemen (GSXR) than we were this year in the Citation (Kawi) and top speeds were identical to the mph. Not seeing big advantage in HP..... however the Citation does have some wicked mechanical grip ! !

[Jasonrmbell]

Well at least I know who the best GSXR racers are now. LoL