Looking to join the party.

[cheeze131]

Trying to get my duck in a row. If all goes to plan, i hopefully will be on track early summer.

Any 600's built or being built in Texas? If so what chassis/motor combo? It looks like most everyone is using Suzuki, but curious if anyone has gone down a different path since the restrictors would impact peak HP.

Will the Mychron 3 gold with the expansion box give me enough information without breaking the budget?

Are folks with the GSXR converting to hydraulic clutch or just working out a good cable operated pedal?

Are those using the paddle shifter suffering any arm pump? If so, how bad? After braking each arm 6-7 times and multiple surgeries from my MX days, i get arm pump pretty quickly and severely and was curious.

I guess that is enough questions for now.

TIA,

Scott C.

[Jnovak]

See below within your questions

Trying to get my duck in a row. If all goes to plan, i hopefully will be on track early summer.

Any 600's built or being built in Texas? If so what chassis/motor combo? It looks like most everyone is using Suzuki, but curious if anyone has gone down a different path since the restrictors would impact peak HP.

Hondas have been used and Yamahas too. Power between the honda and the GSXR are very close with the restrictors. Have not seen any dyno data from Yamaha with restrictor but suspect it will be very similar with the restrictor.

Will the Mychron 3 gold with the expansion box give me enough information without breaking the budget? Yes

Are folks with the GSXR converting to hydraulic clutch or just working out a good cable operated pedal? Cable is very easy.

Are those using the paddle shifter suffering any arm pump? If so, how bad? After braking each arm 6-7 times and multiple surgeries from my MX days, i get arm pump pretty quickly and severely and was curious. I do not know.

I guess that is enough questions for now.

TIA,

Scott C.

[jim murphy]

The drivers tell me that it takes more effort and strength to downshift than to upshift. Thus, the right handed drivers have the downshift paddle on the right.

Carl Maier is the Texas driver with a F600 - you should be able to find him on this forum or the F500 forum.

HTH,
Jim

[cheeze131]

Thanks guys.

[Mark Filip]

The drivers tell me that it takes more effort and strength to downshift than to upshift. Thus, the right handed drivers have the downshift paddle on the right.

Carl Maier is the Texas driver with a F600 - you should be able to find him on this forum or the F500 forum.

HTH,
Jim

Can you run the electronic shifters?

[Earley Motorsports]

I think the rules say must be mechanical, no air or electric.

Cheers, Graham.

[Jnovak]

Can you run the electronic shifters?

Mechanical only.

[Mark Filip]

Mechanical only.

Thank you

[Jnovak]

Come and play with us Mark. You will not spend any more that a top line Vee and you will be a lot faster.

One of the problems is that we cannot build and or modify cars fast enough. No F600s for sale that I know of.

[jim murphy]

Come and play with us Mark. You will not spend any more that a top line Vee and you will be a lot faster.

One of the problems is that we cannot build and or modify cars fast enough. No F600s for sale that I know of.

Clint is thinking about selling the Mk.5
AND the Fastline in central Florida is back up for sale - see Ken Kaplowitz in the classified's in the other F5 forum.

Sorry, just checked the Classified's down at the bottom of all these sections -

Jason Fitzpatrick's car is for sale
Erik Moody's car is for sale - http://formula500.org/viewtopic.php?t=3921

Just keep looking thru the classified's in both forums as others will show up.

Jim

[Jnovak]

Cool Jim, that is 3 cars that could bring in new drivers.

[cheeze131]

If I understand the rules correctly,
when F600 was "regional" only, new homologation was required because people were changing the class on converted cars from F500 to F600, but now that F600 has been merged, a F500 to F600 car will not required homologation? I see it no different from changing from an old 440 to a current Rotax since technically they are all under the same rules umbrella now.

I know its no big deal, send off some photos and a little paperwork, but just looking ahead.

Thanks again

Scott

[CMaier]

Scott all cars need to be dual certified. If you have your homologation certificate just send it in to SCCA and they will send you new one with the dual certification. All new cars currently being built will have required certifications when delivered to the customer.

[lancer360]

Now that F600 is rolled into F500, you don't need dual certification. Your class on the side of the car for next year will be F5 even if you are running the 600 MC engines. You only needed dual homologation when F6 was a stand alone class.

I was told by several knowledgable data engineers that a good base data system needs to do two things. 1. Record what the driver is telling the car to do. 2. Report back what the car is doing in response to the driver's inputs. So that means you should plan for the following to start with.

Driver Input:
1. Steering input sensor
2. Throttle input sensor
3. Brake pressure sensors (This can be approximated with longitudinal G's but won't give you any info on brake bias)

Car Output:
1. Lateral G
2. Longitudinal G
3. GPS Speed
4. Oil Pressure
5. Oil Temp
6. Water Temp
7. Fuel Pressure
8. Engine RPM
9. A/F Ratio

After these sensors and you get some experience reading the data you can then decide where you want to go from there. You can start looking at suspension sensors, air pressures (intake, coooling, etc), air temps, or others. The sky and your wallet are the limit.

As others have said, a cable clutch is very easy to to.

Not sure what you mean by arm pump, but it does take some force on your fingers to shift. I don't work out at all and at a track like Barber I do feel a little bit of fatigue in my forearms at the end of the race. It isn't bad though and Barber being a motorcycle track it gets very busy shifting with a couple of the corners requiring dropping 4 gears in the braking zone. This can be adjusted to some degree by changing the position of where the cable attaches to shifter paddles. By attaching it closer to the paddle pivot axis you decrease the force required but increase the stroke of the paddle. Another option that one driver did was to install a bump stick like you see on some sedans fitted with a sequential gear box instead of paddles. With a bump stick you wouldn't have any strength issues. The force it requires to shift is also related to how good you get at blipping the throttle on the downshift. You have to blip the throttle just enough to release the engine braking to get the dogs to "float" but not so much that the dogs engage the other direction trying to accelerate the car. You will know when you blip it too much as the car will buck. Jay has designed an additional cable system that attaches to the paddle shifter and to the throttle and once you get it adjusted right it blips the throttle for you on the downshift. It does increase the force on the shifter though as you are now operating the throttle with the paddle as well as the transmission. Most drivers with some practice can get the sequence down to blip the throttle manually with their foot. Even at the end of the race when I'm starting to get fatigued a bit I don't find it an issue to rip off a 4 gear downshift while pulling close to 2G's in a braking zone.

Most are staying with the Suzuki as their are tons of them available which keeps the price reasonable, between all the drivers running them you end up with lots of spare parts and knowledge at each race, and the geometry of the Suzuki makes it the best for car packaging. The Yamaha transmission output shaft ends up significantly higher than the Suzuki which makes a direct drive scenario difficult to do and still make the geometry work out for not drastically changing the length of the chain as the axle goes up and down. The Honda's are a good engine, but a little bit bigger than the Suzuki. The geometry for the Honda is similar to the Suzuki so no issues there. One plus to the Honda engine is you do qualify for Honda contingency prizes/$$$ at Majors races for running a Honda powered car. Suzuki has not shown any interest at all in supporting their MC engines in race cars.

[ktmracer]

Hello. Im in Houston.. Cheeze131 Scott is a personal friend of mine I have know a bazzilion years. He has got me wound up about this class. I own a motorcycle shop so this would be right up my ally. I have road raced for over 20 years . Currently doing supermoto.. Ready to make a change. I am looking for a car but preferably on ready for the 600 motor. If any of you have a lead I would much appreciate a heads up. Was looking at FM but I think this is best route for me now. I have several other guys that race the chump car series looking to possibly join in on this . Looking forward to this challenge!! Thanks

[jim murphy]

Hello. Im in Houston.. Cheeze131 Scott is a personal friend of mine I have know a bazzilion years. He has got me wound up about this class. I own a motorcycle shop so this would be right up my ally. I have road raced for over 20 years . Currently doing supermoto.. Ready to make a change. I am looking for a car but preferably on ready for the 600 motor. If any of you have a lead I would much appreciate a heads up. Was looking at FM but I think this is best route for me now. I have several other guys that race the chump car series looking to possibly join in on this . Looking forward to this challenge!! Thanks

Carl Maier is not too far from you in Texas (of course, distance in Texas is relative), he has a post just a couple ahead of yours. A significant portion of SCCA drivers are former MC riders so you will meet many kindred drivers. I tell everyone to become an educated consumer BEFORE you spend any money so read everything here and on F500.org AND go crew for Carl so that you can learn up close and personal. You will not regret doing this.

Jim
Been messing with these cars since 1982.

[ktmracer]

Thanks for the reply Jim. Will research more. Still may go FM seems to be about same cost. But leaning to F600. Between me and Scott we will be researching this a lot. And yes in Texas. Different zip code different weather!!!

[bimmer635csi]

I tell everyone to become an educated consumer BEFORE you spend any money so read everything here and on F500.org AND go crew for Carl so that you can learn up close and personal. You will not regret doing this.

There's a small chance I will be at Sebring this weekend. Does anyone need a volunteer crew man with no experience on F600s, but lots of experience on Late Model circle track cars?

[cory mcleod]

Thanks for the reply Jim. Will research more. Still may go FM seems to be about same cost. But leaning to F600. Between me and Scott we will be researching this a lot. And yes in Texas. Different zip code different weather!!!

If "FM" in your post refers to Formula Mazda, I think you may have some bad data. The cost to campaign and maintain a Formula Mazda is significanly more than an F500/F600. Even though there is still an open dabate regarding cost escalation in the F500/F600 class, it is still significantly cheaper than any other SCCA formula car class, except maybe regional level racing in an FV.

We have a great group of F500/F600 racers in TX. I'm sure they will be glad to help you in any way possible.

Cory

(TCU Horned Frog living in NC)

[cory mcleod]

There's a small chance I will be at Sebring this weekend. Does anyone need a volunteer crew man with no experience on F600s, but lots of experience on Late Model circle track cars?

To my knowledge, no F600s are planning to run Sebring, but if you can handle some 2-cycle smoke, there will be at least 5 F500s there. I will be crewing for Chris Smith and Al Saurland. Stop by and say hello.

Cory

[lancer360]

Most of the F600's will be running the F600 Challenger Pro Series next year. We have some really exciting things in the works for next years schedule, but can't talk about them yet until we get contracts signed and in place. The series has sponsers and paid out over $38,000 last year in prize money, tow fund, and gift certificates. There are a couple of F600's for sale if your interested. Send me a PM if your interested and I'll get you in touch with the owners.

[fgeor6]

I'm a novice racer, but have been fortunate to have run Clint and Dan's cars with both Honda and Suzuki power. I've not seen Dyno data on either engine, but can offer some input based on what they feel like in the "seat of the pants".

The Suzuki engine is lighter and more compact. Clint and Dan would be the guys to ask for the exact differences in size, weight, etc. I can tell you though, that the Suzuki revs faster and more freely, and tends to make it's power in the higher RPM range. To me, it feels like the Suzuki is a bit easier to manage under acceleration.

The Honda, on the other hand, seems to have a wider power band (there again ask Clint and Dan). The power comes on at much lower RPM and one must be careful when applying the throttle out of the corners. As Clint said "Think squeeze" so as not to upset the car.

The biggest difference between the two engines, to me, is in the gear boxes. Both engine/gearbox combos upshift quite positively and with very little effort. On the downshift, however, the Honda gearbox seems much easier to use. The Suzuki seems vague, causing me some "fumble-itis", the Honda is more positive (Ka-thunk) and I don't feel like I'm "fishing" for gears!

Again, this is coming from a novice, so take with a liberal dose of salt. Hope this helps.

[ktmracer]

Sent PM to Fitzpatrick and Dan. And called Lance360. Left message.

[ktmracer]

Cory. Im still doing due diligence here. Im seeing a few FM's for sale at $16G to $23G depending on year. Im not a fan of the spec motor idea only 1 builder. They can set their own pricing in this case which seems to be. Im seeing $8900.00 for a rebuild. Ouch. I have a local mazda guy and he said should not cost nowhere near that much for a refresh. Just missed local FM with trailer and spare motor for $20G. I agree the cost will be cheaper especially since motorcycles is my living. Doing my own motors will curve a lot of the cost for sure. Thanks for your input. W

[bimmer635csi]

Most of the F600's will be running the F600 Challenger Pro Series next year. We have some really exciting things in the works for next years schedule, but can't talk about them yet until we get contracts signed and in place. The series has sponsors and paid out over $38,000 last year in prize money, tow fund, and gift certificates. There are a couple of F600's for sale if your interested. Send me a PM if your interested and I'll get you in touch with the owners.

To my knowledge, no F600s are planning to run Sebring, but if you can handle some 2-cycle smoke, there will be at least 5 F500s there. I will be crewing for Chris Smith and Al Saurland. Stop by and say hello.

I will stop by if a magical price reduction occurs. It is my own fault for waiting so long, but sometimes you get lucky and can find a "last minute" deal. This is what I'm hoping for right now.

I've autocrossed a lot. We have smaller events ... but ... is there a "current registered list" of some kind (like autocrosses have) so that I can look for F600s in upcoming races? I looked for the 2014 F600 Challenge(r) Pro Series but was unable to determine which races include this sub-series. And now that F5 & F6 are one class, it makes it more difficult other than asking "who will be where" questions because my google skills have come up short.

I'm going to add alot of this info to my running question list also, just to keep it together and easier for future hopefuls to find information in one location. So feel free to just answer once.

Cheers,
Chris

[jim murphy]

The Challenge Series schedule will be out soon and will have 5 or 6 race weekends plus the finale at Road Atlanta in November.

HTH,
Jim

[cheeze131]

I will start a new build thread as I progress.
Novakar with 2006 gsxr600.

[Jnovak]

I will start a new build thread as I progress.
Novakar with 2006 gsxr600.

Cool.

[cheeze131]

Been making progress, slowly, here are some pics:









So far, so good.

Scott

[jim murphy]

Looking good. I hope that you have been reading all the threads in both forums to make sure you don't make an expensive mistake. Since 2009, we have found that oil pressure and temperature are absolutely critical (enclosed drivetrain with not much air flow) so cool it with a BIG oil cooler, extra oil in system, oil pan really done right, higher temperature oil viscosity and heat shielding EVERYWHERE there is any heat (and heat transfers thru chassis tubing to items far away from the heat source - ouch!!).

HTH,
Jim
F6R

[clint]

I am glad to see some more new blood coming into the class! With Chris Ross moving to texas, I would engage him as much as possible along with Carl Maier. Chris has a new Nova Blade and has a ton of experience with the 600s. The way your build looks so far, it looks like you're very good at the fabrication end of things. If you have any questions, anyone on this forum can help you with whatever you may need. Please ask as many questions as you would like. I hope to see you out soon! When do you think you will be on the track?

[cheeze131]

Jim,

Yes, I have been reading the both forums, as well as the FB board, and am aware of the oil cooling issues as well as the heat build up in the engine area.

Clint,
Thanks. I was shooting for end of the year, but in reality it will probably be early next year. I have talked to Carl but he is around 250 miles away, so it just isn't feasible to hop over to look at something I may have a question about. I looked his Red Devil over fairly well and picked his brain at a race in May and that help alot. Chris will be a lot closer depending on what area they settle in, but I had definitely planned to pick his brain once he gets settled in down here.

Scott

[tedsimmons2]

Hey Scott,

I have the same car (Novakar) with the same engine (2006 GSXR-600). Send PM if you'd like to talk or email me with any questions you might have. You're going to like the package once you hit the track! Ted

[cheeze131]

Ted,

I have been using your photos as a go-by.

[jim murphy]

I am so glad to see that you are on the right track - no pun intended!

Jim