Can I do a drivers school in a Formula Car?
This summer I picked up an F500 that I plan on road racing next year. I still need to do a drivers school. Will I be able to do so in my car or will I have to rent a fender-ed car with a passenger seat for an instructor?
I was leaning towards the drivers school Waterford Hills puts on but my car is too loud for Waterford's 75dB limit.
www.waterfordhills.com/driver-school.shtml
Renting a car takes a lot of the weight off of you to keep the car running. Plus for a Waterford school you'll have more fun running in the fender groups where there are a bunch more cars. A miata is a great way to go thru school. Easy to drive and zero maintenance.
SCCA schools do not put an instructor in the car with you and formula cars are fine. Well, unless they are not included. Some SCCA regions exclude formula cars from their schools. Why I do not know.
Formula cars are okay
I took two schools in Formula cars. A Formula Vee and a Formula First. I do understand the rental car option though. If you do take it in your car make sure you have plenty of crew to do everything between driving sessions. You will not have time and do not need the distraction of prepping the car between driving sessions. Your focus needs to be on the driving only.
The one day school I attended was pretty hectic. Two run groups. Fenders & Open Wheel. 1/2 hour on - 1/2 hour off & repeat thru the day. I considered bringing my Reynard. Glad I rented an arrive & drive Spec Miata, instead. Made for an enjoyable & relaxing day.
With my wife & son as crew, it would've been a real chore. Come off track, climb out, remove body, re-fuel, check fluids, nut & bolt, tire pressures, wheel nuts, install body, strap in, back on track....
Of course, being 60 & not 20, was a factor
"An analog man living in a digital world"
If you have an open wheel car, and the school has an open wheel group, I would run your open wheel car. Open wheel cars drive different than a fender car. The more seat time you can get the better. The most important thing is to have a knowledgeable crew to assist you, and maintain the car. Stay focused on driving.
I did both my driving schools in my Formula Ford years ago but like has been said, be sure you have at least one good crew person. Spend some time with that crew person to make sure they have a fair understanding of what to look at on the car between sessions and practice having them help belt you in. You'll need the crew to be helping you, not requiring you to do on the job training.
Good luck and welcome to open wheel land.
Back when they required 2 schools to get a license I did both in Formula Fords. I had a very experienced crew each time but there were still problems. One of the cars I purchased 2 weeks earlier as race ready, it wasn't. Most stressful weekends of my life.
So when I went back to school 20 years later after some time away I rented a SRF and had a great time.
Bring it here:
http://www.mcscc.org/w2w_school.php
Formula cars welcome,
highly recommended school, great instructors,
formula/SR only group, (no door cars out there with you)
experienced instructors assigned one on one
we run chase cars, to help lead you, teach you, and critique you
Midwestern Council accepts SCCA and Waterford Licenses
SCCA accepts MC license for Regionals, and pretty sure Waterford reciprocates.
Last edited by mblanc; 08.18.14 at 6:57 PM.
FFCoalition.com
Marc Blanc
You will get lots of great suggestions here. Here is another - for what its worth:
The 3 day Skip Barber school is in Formula "Barber" cars - and for a fee, you can get a Certificate of Compliance" that your regional Director can review, and then recommend you to National for your license. It is indeed hassle free, unlimited tires - you flat-spot one - get a new one. You are liable for damages to the cars - but they have an insurance program to offset that if you buy in. You get track time, coaching, and practice - including starts, restarts, autocross warm up, etc. And, its all done in 3 days - not several weekends. To me it was worth the $$ - not terrible - but to be considered.
Not a salesman - or affiliated - just a very satisfied customer. There is a Skip Barber Racing Forum - if you are interested - where you can ask specific questions - a pretty friendly group - much like this one(http://www.skippyforums.com/)
Cheers - Jim
Go for it!
I had a new to me car and for sure struggled with reliability, but I still have fond memories of my 3 driver's schools that lead to my signing off and 20 years of fun ever since. If you have big bucks, rent or do a pro school, but if you are cash strapped follow the advice and go for it with the best crew you can rustle up. If I were within a 100 miles of your school outing and not racing somewhere that weekend I would crew for you!
steve
Originally Posted by Sully
75dB ?!?! your average dishwasher makes that much noise.. what do they mow the lawn with there? and what happened to the gun range nearby? 75dB is the most ridiculous noise level I've ever heard of for a RACE TRACK!!
Yeah. It's 75dB at the sound meter which is on the other side of what is meant to be a sound retaining wall on the back straight. It is ridiculous but it's what they had to do to keep the new residents happy that keep moving in around a race track and complain about the noise. Common sense.... they lack it.
The gun range is still there too.
If I were use my own car, how many people should I try to recruit to help me with the driver school?
That would be awesome. Anyone I get to crew for me would be green like me. It would be nice to have someone with me that knew what they were doing.
use your own car, find crew and remember if you were miss one of the sessions in a driver school it would likely not be held against you - at least that's how things run down here in Cent. Fla. Region - the deal with some schools not having an open wheel grid is the 'powers-that-be' bean counter sort of guys will think if only maybe something like 5 or 6 cars fill that grid then they're losing money so they eliminate the grid - stupid
The elimination of the open wheel group, in years past, was more to do with the group size. Its hard to gain wheel to wheel experience when there are only a couple open wheel cars especially when one might be a vee and the other an Atlantic.
It would be to your advantage to rent a well known tried and trued car for the school in my opinion. It doesnt matter what kind of car it is, as long as it will finish the school and make EVERY session. If your crew hasnt dealt with a F500 before its going to be challenging for them to learn quick. That may or may not leave time for you to complete the classroom time and make the track. If you have a sorted out car that has next to no problems then run your car. Just know if you're unable to complete a certian amount of track time you will not get your liscence during that school. I have watched this unfold many times before at drivers schools and I feel bad because they didnt know.
BEFORE going to school learn everything that you can about F500's in both this forum (F500 section further down this forum) and www.formula500.org/forum.php Read all the threads (take the time to do this) and then find one or more F500 drivers near you who you can either crew for or spend time at their shop and get hands-on experience in ALL aspects of the car. Become an informed consumer before you spend any more money!
Your fellow F5 drivers will help you if you will only ask. Maybe you can work a swap deal with them where you crew for them in return for crewing for you at your drivers' school.
Jim
Been messing with these cars since 1982.
This is my second F500. The last one I only had a year before my tow vehicle got totaled and I decided to sell it. I only autocrossed that one and pretty much put gas and oil in it and drove. It was 440 powered so it left alot to be desired.
This one is pretty sound mechanically. now I'm just learning carb, clutch and chassis setup. Otherwise its pretty solid and reliable so far at the few autocrosses and a Time trial I took it to. If it will last a whole 20-30 min session on track..... I don't know. I'd like to find out somehow before next year. Finding someplace to run it for testing outside of a race weekend seems difficult.
I'm trying to figure out who's going to be where and when. All of the different schedules and organizations is sort of confusing. Even just looking at the SCCA races. Regional, national, divisional, Majors....... All have different schedules in different locations. Registration links are even harder to find. I was trying to see if there are any F500 cars at a number of races and who I can contact to see if they would be willing to let me tag along. I didn't have any luck.
I have not seen you post your needs on either of the F5 forums so start posting.
It can be confusing... Terms have changed - nationals have been replaced by majors, and regionals replaced by divisionals but still called regionals in some cases. So, two levels, Majors and divisionals. There used to be two SCCA license levels as well but there is now just one, a Full Competition License.Regional, national, divisional, Majors....... All have different schedules in different locations.
There are 4 majors regions at the moment, but many more regions. Each region may organize regional (divisional) races and they may organize Majors within their respective majors region.
So, for starters you are looking for a drivers school as close as possible, within your region or the closest one you can find. Currently the only one showing on the SCCA website is at Watkins Glen the weekend of Oct 3. Sometimes the regions races/schools do not show up on the SCCA website. Schools typically are a bit earlier in the year to allow a competitor to go to a school then races.
Current rules require a single school and three regional race weekends to earn your competition license. Much easier that in past years...
Go crew for someone and you will learn all this and have a feel for the race weekend.
I thought about doing the school at the Glen. I still have rather large issues to work out. Namely car and crew.
Re: Can I do a drivers school in a Formula Car?
I will soon. I'm trying to put together exactly what I need. Apex sees more traffic than both F5 sites so that why I posted this inquiry here on driver schools.
Hey Sully - I highly recommend the Waterford drivers school. There are always some or the other F500 guys around to help with technical issues. You might need one other person to help with crewing. The school entry cost is less than any other I could find in the area, and it is a 2-weekend deal - 1st one is classroom session and 2nd is a day of track sessions. You'd obviously also save a lot on hotel and tow costs being that the track is local. You're better off running your car, the school offers a LOT of seat time that IMO would be wasted if you did it in a Miata or other slow car. The way around Waterford with a sedan or road car is a little different than it is for a F500 due to the rough track surface.
I'd do the waterford school in my car but it's too loud. You saw my car at the corvette club autocross in Hamtramck with its wonky exhaust configuration.
For the price difference between running at Waterford and renting a car or hauling the car to Mid Ohio or Grattan, I'd fix that exhaust... Doesn't seem too hard to route an extension past all the suspension bits and mount a small 8" two stroke muffler??
Come on over to the Waterford forums and make some friends:
http://www.waterfordhills.com/phpBB3/
I believe many of the 500 guys run an extra tack-on pipe and/or clamp-on turndown on their tuned pipe for some safety factor to meet sound and to be able to adjust. I'm sure they can give some suggestions.
As for running the school - for sure, you can't beat the bang for the buck and track time. Usually some current open-wheel racers will come out with their cars as well, to help fill out the field and make the learning experience more meaningful.
Being close to home helps too, for getting good rest at night and reducing the stress factor with travel etc.
To bad you don't live in the Northwest. ICSCC does their drivers school in your every day street car complete with on board instructor. Then you get a novice permit to go run 'novice races' (all observed by senior drivers) and learn how to drive fast
And once you've completed the program, you can then apply for an SCCA license. The clubs have reciprocal agreements.
CREW for Jeff 89 Reynard or Flag & Comm.
I heard that the 75dB limit is not that horrible at Waterford since the sound meter is some distance from the edge of the track. As you know, sound levels decrease with distance. Aaen Performance has some aluminum repackable mufflers at a good price (get the biggest one for best effect). Any muffler for your car will have to be supported separately from the expansion chamber - and vibration isolated (big door return spring).
Now the bumps, on the other hand, . . . . .
HTH,
Jim
Uh yeah.
Like to a newbie they're worried about that
I did my DS in a borrowed 78 Tiga Club Ford. The owner fit me to the car and was my crew for the school. Other than being painfully slow because I didn't want to bend or break a borrowed car, I passed the school.
Go over your car and make sure it's ready and reliable. Have spares and a contingency plan. Some prep shops bring an extra car for those who might have an issue with their car and rent to you on the spot if needed.
If you can find a fellow F500 driver to assist you, ply him with adult beverages, good meals and a nice hotel room, I think you will be fine in your car.
Regards,
Dan Wise
“Racing makes heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty.” -Peter Egan
The sound meter is at the top of the wall, which is about 6' off the middle of the back straight.
Bumps - no, not really an issue. Track was repaved a few years ago, and has never been close to any crappy track in condition, like Nelsons. I find it quite smooth, with of course some of the usual disturbance between concrete and asphalt, but the asphalt is in great shape. A bit abrasive, but great shape IMO.
The sound meter is at the top of the wall, which is about 6' off the middle of the back straight.
I suspect that you mean "from the EDGE of the track" and even 6' from the edge seems to be awfully close - like unsafely close. So please clarify and confirm the location of the sound meter.
Jim
Sorry, you're right - what I meant to say was, at the top of the sound wall, which is about 6' off the edge of the track, at the middle of the straight (halfway down the straight, roughly).
Typing too fast!
The wall is very close to the track too.
Exactly - and great photo, you can see the roof over the sound station.
sound requirements
I can not speak to other classes but FV can meet the sound limit without a muffler. They do have to run a muffler because that is the regulation - but it really does not have to muffle much.
I would expect there is a easy and readily available solution for F500
Mark Silverberg - SE Michigan
Lynx B FV & Royale RP3 FF
240Z Vintage Production Car
PCR, Kosmic CRG & Birel karts
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