New GCR rule - spin under yellow

[Paul LeCain]

Larry states, correctly, that everyone should be aware of what's in the GCR.

The problem is that this 'rule' is not in the GCR. What besides the GCR (published), supps (published as part of race entries), and FasTrack (published) am I supposed to read? Where do I find the 'guidelines' that have the same value as 'rules' established by the well doumented 'rules making process'?

The above should be easy to solve. Just post all this stuff in some public place on the SCCA web site and tell everyone about it.

That's the 'process' part; this is the substantive part: This is still a bad rule.

It's a bad rule because it establishes a single, unappealable (a black flag is not appealable in any real way) penalty for a whole range of infractions, from spinning in someone else's oil to outright reckless driving. The stewards need to be able to distinguish among the range of conduct and deal accordingly.

[Paul LeCain]

I've read that 2006MinumumPenalty.pdf document more carefully. I'd like to show a possible result from taking this literally. Remember, its purpose is to remove discretion from the hands of the stewards.

This from the GCR:

[quote]

[size=1]17.5.2. Size of Numbers and Class Letters


[/size][size=1]Numbers shall be at least eight (8) inches high, with a 1.5 inch stroke on
a contrasting background (rear winged Formula cars shall have as large
a number as possible on their rear wing side plates). Metallic (reflective)
numbers and class letters are prohibited. The distance between two (2)
numbers shall be at least as wide as the stroke of the numbers. Class
letters shall be at least four (4) inches high, with a half (1/2) inch stroke
on a contrasting background.

[unquote]

The 'minimum penalty' document says:

[/size][quote]

Car not in compliance:
Prior to the race: Chief Steward removes Tech Sticker - car may be re-submitted, and if found in compliance, may compete with loss of all qualifying times prior to removal of tech sticker.
Post race: Disqualification, loss of points.

[unquote]

Now here's what can happen:
I protest you because I think there is less than 1.5 inches between two digits in your car number. The stewards measure your numbers and find that I'm right. You're disqualified (race), or have your qualifying disallowed (qualifying). Those are the 'minimum' penalties for 'Car not in compliance'. There is no appeal that will help you. The stewards are not allowed under this set of rules (guidelines, whatever) to consider the seriousness (or lack thereof) of the offense.

Does this seem sensible to anyone?

[LolaT440]

That fact that there is so much discussion about this demonstrates why there needs to be a rule.

Use a little common sense to know you should not be spinning under a caution. 2nd, you do not have the green under a full course caution. The only time you can not be under caution is when you pass the next flag stand and it has no caution waving.

So there are always freak things that occur. But, the argument "well it was a full yellow and I was just trying to catch up to the field...." or what ever the "reason" is not good. Rain or No Rain.

So pretend there is a spin/crash. Full course yellow. Then someone half way around blows the motor. You think it is a fullcourse for the crash. Jump into 4th to catch up, hit the oil, spin and take out the car on the side of the track with the blown motor. Maybe there is a safety person there tying off the car and you kill or hurt him.

So then go explain to the person in the hospital or funeral, you were just trying to catch up to the field for your plastic 3rd place trophy.

So knowing the rule, slow yourself down and be ultra careful. Wake up, for 90% of the people it is a hobby for fun.

CAUTION - not a good chance to catch up, not daydream time, not relaxation time, not tire scrub time. It is a time to be extra alert because there is a problem on the track AND YOU DON'T know where it is, hence THE FLAG and FLAG STATIONS. There may be PEOPLE on the track, or a DISABLED car somewhere.

What is the matter with you guys, think about yourself parked in the middle of the track if YOU accidently spin in addition to the caution. Do you want someone catching up. NASCAR finally woke up to this. This is dumb.

[MartinRacing98]

I think we have all messed up from time to time. I know I have. I have only raced karts, but I remember in my second year wrecking do to a waved off start. I also remember spining after the checker in a wet condition.

Just because I have done it does not make it ok. My opinion has always been and still is that losing control of your vehicle under a yellow condition is not acceptable. If you do so being penalized seems reasonable.

[Larry]

Yep, we have all messed up at times. We have all made mistakes. We are, after all, human. The correct thing to do after making a mistake is to accept responsibility for your error, apologize, and try not to do it again. If there is a penalty associated with the mistake, accept it. The reason for the steward's penalty guidelines is to achieve a degree of standardization throughout the club (or at least the division). Regarding whether spinning under yellow is specifically called out in the GCR, it isn't. There is, however, "reckless and dangerous," and spinning under yellow could easily be construed as such.

The benefit of accepting a Chief Steward's Action is that there are no penalty points associated with it--and the range of penalties is quite limited. Appeal the CSA and it goes to the Stewards of the Meet. If they uphold the CSA, you receive penalty points and are subject to a broader range of penalties. This really isn't a big deal (the penalty points), as there are very few drivers who receive enough penalty points where it becomes an issue.

I still look at my time as a steward and see that it confirms the Pareto Principle (80/20 rule). I spend 80% of my time with the same 20% of the drivers. Most drivers will have little contact with the stewards (in their official capacity). If you find yourself spending an inordinate amount of time "chatting" with stewards, you ought to question yourself "why?"

Larry Oliver

[RussMcB]

You know, most of the time I am very proud to be part of the SCCA, and I always appreciate the hard work put in by so many volunteers, but when things like this happen (minimun penalities for unpublished rules?!), I wonder how things that seem so well organized can get so screwed up. I felt the same way last Summer with the end-run rule changes right before the Runoffs.

There may be a reasonable explanation, and I'd like to hear it. I think it's too bad that Eye didn't protest & appeal - not necessarily because he felt like he was in the right, but because he was penalized for a rule that there's no way he could have been expected to know!

[hgmobile]

In my region the Supps always contain the following line:
"During a mid-race full course yellow, competitors should make every effort to safely bunch up the
field. "
I understand that it says safely but this wording seems to encourage a driver to take the chance of running afoul of the new policy. Am I missing something here or should this standard admonition be modified now.

[EYERACE]

Russ, the rule has been at the SEDIV / SARRC website since the end of 2005....i've been in there and probably even read it.....but didn't remember it until all this occurred. so some will claim it's no secret and in a way they are correct with that attitude......but to have no FasTrack publication of rules stinks. Now we must all check out the divisional websites and the national scca website too...and read the subs. I can do that....maybe my little pea brain can remember what i read there next time. and i still object to the thought of a group of 8 RE's coming up with a rule out of thin air....it may be a good rule but a black flag is a good thing too.

by the way, of course i was wanting to catch the field behind the pace car.....i was going as fast as conditions would allow [and was a little over i found out] but i was trying to be as slow as was prudent. i sure could have gone slower.......but where's the challange in that? if you're not pushing the edge of the envelope, you're not trying.

[Steve Demeter]

After reading Eye's account it sounds to me like some official types are trying to make a point.

That point is that there are way too many instances of drivers doing things that endanger workers and it has to stop. Talk to someone who works corners sometime and you will understand what I mean.

The really sad part is that, to me, it sounds like Eye did nothing to endanger anyone, but was caught in a "rule" that was not necessairly put there for what he did.

[RussMcB]

I agree, but if they truly wanted to decrease the chances and occurances of it happening they would have made it a commonly known, well published rule.

After reading Eye's account it sounds to me like some official types are trying to make a point.

That point is that there are way too many instances of drivers doing things that endanger workers and it has to stop. Talk to someone who works corners sometime and you will understand what I mean.

The really sad part is that, to me, it sounds like Eye did nothing to endanger anyone, but was caught in a "rule" that was not necessairly put there for what he did.

[Alan Oppel]

One thing that may have influenced the penalty imposed upon Eyerace was the fact that another car spun and completed 720 degrees of rotation in the very near space of cornerworkers who were extracting a car from a precarious position partially on the track. I am quite sure that if a penalty were imposed to that driver, Eye's penalty comes as justice metered evenly to all offenders. If it were not for the other incident which put our workers at great risk, Eye may not have had a penalty levied against him, as is the Stewards perogitive.
However the salient point of this is that this rule was created and implemented without many knowing of it's existence. Am I correct that only changes made at times other than the reprint time of the GCR are the ones posted in Fastrack? In other words can changes be made to the GCR at a time that they do not appear in Fastrack? Or did I just not read all the gobbeldy-gook fine print and only look at the rules changes that are under my car class designation? That is possible.
Alan

[jim morgan]

stupid rule just another way for the officious whoops officials to screw up competition unsafe driving is already dealt with in the rules why after all these years are we trying to turn racing into a drive around

[EYERACE]

jim, the only parade lap i want to be part of is driving the vintage car for the one lapper just before the 12 hours of sebring on that saturday morning......other than that......it's explore the edge of the envelope!

[Jakester]

[font=Arial]also think....ok there's a full course yellow [so the corners are now out of extra yellow flags] due to a couple of incidents on course, i spin elsewhere on the track, the cars coming up to that corner see double yellows that they've been seeing all around the track but nothing to warn them that something else just happened around the next corner......what else can they do...wave like mad the double yellows?......wave a third yellow and hold out the double yellows?......so in a way, it's a good rule[/font]

Rule #1 is flag your corner. If the incident is at your corner, and needs a waving yellow, the waving yellow is the first priority. The double yellow is second priority. Preferably, you wave one yellow and hold the second stationary.

[font=Arial]Correct me if I'm wrong but under a single steady yellow, corner workers are not on the track or in a dangerous position as there is still racing going on and under a full course caution there could be emergency vehicals on the track therefore again nobody should be in a dangerous postion. If this is true why should you be penalized for spinning as you are not endangering anybody. This penalty should be used under a single or double waved yellow situation when there is the danger of corner workers or stationary service vehicals on the track. If corner workers need to go to the track surface for any reason then put out a full course waved yellow.[/font]

Read the SCCA GCR. There is standing yellow, waving yellow and full course (double) yellow. Unlike FIA flag rules, there are no double waving yellows nor full course waved yellows. Under a full course caution, there may be emergency vehicles and workers on the course. They may be at the scene of the incident that caused the full course yellow or they may be elsewhere taking care of a previous incident or other track 'maintenance' so that it does not affect the race after the end of the double yellow.

[size=3][font=Arial]i sure could have gone slower.......but where's the challange in that? if you're not pushing the edge of the envelope, you're not trying.[/font][/size]

Eye, a full course yellow is not the time to push ANY edge of the envelope! I hope you meant this comment differently from the way it came across.


Regarding being black flagged. Most experienced stewards will not black flag a driver during the race unless necessary. Whenever possible, stewards prefer to deal with the potential infraction after the race. A black flag effectively ends that driver's race, and cannot be taken back if later or additional evidence indicates a penalty was not the right thing to do.

[Jim Gustafson]

If you spin under yellow, go straight to jail! As soon as the hangman sobers up, we will go git 'em.