HAs FF replaced DSR?

[Joefisherff]

Why not propose the same engine for FF as FC - Zetec? No aero devices on FF, move to the same rim/tire size as FC thus eliminating the cantilever tires. This provides more demand for the FC size tires which should help the tire makers reduce the price. This provides for the ability to start in FF and move to FC with the addition of aero. With Cosworth/Ford providing the power for the Atlantics soon it shouldn't be too difficult to sell Ford on providing a ladder system to the Atlantic Series and CART. I agree that we need some marketing help from SCCA, they already have an agreement in place with Ford/Mazda for the FSCCA. Once again I don't recommend this change happen immediately but provide a planned path for the future. I like the idea of providing linkages to the FF's in Europe and Australia providing more of an international flair to our class.

[ccambern]

It's all about the tires! I agree the Zetec engine is great and the Kent is getting long in the tooth, but what FF really needs is a hard, spec tire. No conversion costs and a much more even playing field for those who can't afford new rubber every race.

-Clark

[Joefisherff]

Good Point Clark - Tire Cost containment is needed as well. Do any of the regional FC series run a spec tire that lasts multiple weekends? I think any way to leverage a shared platform will help reduce costs and boost participation/appeal.

[M.L.Sauce]

Clark- Great job at the Runoffs. You are the poster child for driving an older car beyond it's perceived competitive level .It should be obvious that it is the driver more than the car. I wish everyone who had a early 90's car could check their ego and realize it is more the driver than the car.Good job.DOT tires will help our class.It would also help make many different chassis competitve. The Canadian series proved that.

[Todd Rhoades]

Question I have to every-one is why is FF fields so large in Europe?..Different engine, DOT tire...maybe we should look at what they are doing and do the same.....thoughts please..Todd

[Jim Nash]

Not to nitpick but, Clark’s 8 year old RF97 is actually newer than the cars that finished in 1st and 2nd! And, can be had for $22K OBO (See FF classifieds for info and pictures.). I wonder if I could get a Runoffs podium finishing DSR for that!?


Jim Nash

[alan pike]

Question I have to every-one is why is FF fields so large in Europe?..Different engine, DOT tire...maybe we should look at what they are doing and do the same.....thoughts please..Todd

The Kent engined FF are getting stronger every year.People are buying the Zetec cars and converting them to Kent spec the reason is the Kents are better to race and watch.
The Zetec has too much weight on the top of the engine so the balance is wrong.

One race at Oulton Park this year we had 60 FFs all on the same spec tyre and engine.
Check out the main picture on WWW.BRSCCNW.COM

[Bob Devol]

Clark- Great job at the Runoffs. You are the poster child for driving an older car beyond it's perceived competitive level .It should be obvious that it is the driver more than the car. I wish everyone who had a early 90's car could check their ego and realize it is more the driver than the car.Good job.DOT tires will help our class.It would also help make many different chassis competitve. The Canadian series proved that.

For those thinking about going to DOT rubber, be careful what you wish for.

The Spec Racer crowd has been having a tough time replacing the performance of the venerable Yokohama A008 with an acceptable DOT replacement.

The new Yoke A048 spec tire doesn't come close to the durability and performance of the A008, because the key construction materials in the A008 that made it so perfect for that car are no longer manufactured.

This has led SCCA Enterprises on an exhaustive search and testing program for a replacement for the A048 DOT tire. Guess what one of the leading contenders is? A bias-ply Goodyear racing tire.

Fact is, DOT spec tires are great, until the manufacturer decides to stop making them. Then the fun begins.

I think a spec tire is a great idea. As long as it's a true, bias-ply racing slick. In fact, one possible candidate already exists: the Goodyear 600.

[LJennings]

That is why the Avon ACB10 is the most logical choice.

[ccambern]

Or the Hoosier R60... Mike- thanks for the compliment. True enough- a modern, properly set-up FF with a good engine can run at the front, regardless of the make.

While I really enjoyed driving my Ford on street tires, a spec bias ply slick would ease the transition. Set-ups would be close, so we wouldn't have to goof with geometry, extreme camber angles, etc. The DB1, for instance, would propbably struggle with DOT tires (I engineered one for the Canadian Series), but would perform just fine on R60s or GY 600s.

-Clark

[M.L.Sauce]

Clark- I won the Montreal event in the ESSo Protech series in a DB1 using the same springs I ran with the Goodyear slicks. Broke the track record too by the way. I just want to have reasonable tire costs so we can get new people into our class. It may not be the most glamorous formula car but if you learn to drive a FF well without the aero aides you ultimately learn better car control and set up experience.How do we send this message?

[lenhart05]

I agree with Mike that we need a more radical change than throwing R60's on the cars. A new set of R60's are still faster than a set with a few heat cycles. And, that will put us exactly where we are now. Instead of a hard compound tire with reduced grip, I would love to get a threaded tire with NO-grip, even when new. The tires I had on my VW rabbit in high school were crappy, but they were consistently crappy for thousands of miles autocrossing (and cheap.)

Also, the technology and costs in fords is nearly identical to FF2000 (minus the wings). Why would some kid want to run the 1600's? If we can broaden the gap finacially between the 1600's and 2000's, we should be able to draw from two different pools of potential racers. This could also produce two obviously different classes. FF2000 should have slicks, wings, and semi-pro teams. FF1600 should have threaded tires that last the season, kent engines, open car trailers, and large fields. Maybe a new Cooper Tire EWC series on Avon Threaded tires. I would consider running the EWC next year on some threaded tires.

Tad Lenhart

[Bob Devol]

True, R60s and GY 600s have a slight first heat cycle edge. While that may not be a major cost issue, except for those few how simply have to chuck new tires on the car just for a few tenths, there's still another alternative: the Hoosier R70, as run in RCCA. That's a super hard slick that wears like iron (and slides like it too!).

Or maybe there's another alternative with no first heat cycle advantage that could be engineered for FF by Goodyear or Avon.

My point is that it's a lot easier to get a manufacturer that's committed to building and marketing road racing slicks to create a tire for us than it is to adapt a DOT passenger car tire that can be withdrawn from the market at any time, leaving us in the lurch.

[LJennings]

You are all missing the point on the DOT tire. Look at how long Avon has produced the ACB10 for Europa.

It is a proven product and backed by a company that is willing to stick it out. Plus with the added market of the US, I am sure they will not discontinue production for many seasons.


And what keeps Goodyear, Hoosier, or any other manufacture in these economy conditions to pull the plug on their racing operations?

Everyone could be out of tires by Monday.

[Bob Devol]

I think you may want to strike Hoosier from your list of companies that would pull out of the racing tire business, because that's their only business.

[Scott Hanba]

Wouldn't most of the English cars benefit from the Avon type tire, since all of their suspensions were optimized for a DOT radial? Except maybe a newer VD designed for the slicks used in the 1800 cars.

[James Hakewill]

Please note that whilst the Avon ACB9 (old style) and ACB10 (newer style) are classed as road legal tyres (tires), they are cross-ply construction and not radials. So they are race tires..!

They are great tyres, go on forever and don't give up after a couple of cycles. Things can get quite exciting in the wet however, since they're not as sticky as a real wet tyre. These tyres have been used by FF1600 in the UK and Australia for many years, and continue to be used. They're not going to go away any time soon.

The ACB9 was originally manufactured by Dunlop as the Formula Ford tyre back in the 70's and 80's, before the RACMSA (UK sanctioning body) switched the contract to Avon and introduced the ACB10 as an alternative.

Check out section 6.3 of the Australian FF1600 rules - the ACB10 is described as a 'semi-slick compund cross-ply":
http://www.formulaford.com.au/acroba...ech%20regs.pdf

The Avon site is here:
http://www.avonracing.com
http://www.avonracing.com/tyres/tyregroup.asp?ID=3

Frankly it is crazy to be spending so much money on tires for club racing - there is no reason or excuse for it whatsoever.

James

[Pinecone]

My atek. Background: I love open wheel cars. First and always. But I race an SRF. Why?

Spec car, engine, tires. I do not have to chase the latest go fast goody. When I get beat, it is because the other guy drove better, not that he spent more money on engines, tires, shocks, new chassis, etc.

Time. To me, and many people, time is more precious than money in modern life. My car lives at the CSR. I call, the car is at the track, ready to run, and all trackside stuff is taken care of. At the end of the weekend, I change, say goodbye, and drive home. No loading, tying down, towing home. If I want, I can get dirty working on the car, but if I don't, I don't HAVE to. Between races, I do go to the shop and do little projects (install video, data logger, etc). But I don't HAVE to do that myself.

Crash damage is less. The car is more robust (heavy) and the parts are simple. Also I don't have to stock parts, because the CSR is at the track with spares (even for those who bring and work on their own cars). It is rare to actually strip a corner off a car.

I have, and still consider an FF for autocross and regional racing as a CF. It may happen. But really, I don't have the TIME to do that. Oh, and let's not forget space. How many people these days live in condos or townhouses, and don't have space to put their street cars, much less a trailer and race car?

As for a new engine for FF, it sounds GREAT, I thought the Kent motor was obsolete back in 1985 when I ran them in a Skip Barber class. But take a look at the trouble the FC guys are in getting a well thought out, well researched Zetec proposal approved. And forget any HP increase as SCCA is about keeping the status quo. Can't upset anyone if at all possible. Can't leave anybody out of tpssibly racing by updating the classes.

I think that a lot of the success in Europe and other places is due to rational updating as time goes on. And limiting tire costs.

BTW yes, the SRF community has had tire problems this year. A combo of a tire that is faster on many tracks on the first heat cycle, and less life. But realize the life issue is compared to the A008 which was amazing. Last year at VIR the fastest race lap in one race was set on tires with 18 (yes EIGHTEEN) heat cycles. The A048s seem to have quality control problems, one set will run 8 - 10 heat ycles fine, the next set will go away in 3 - 4. But at least things are moving forward with anew tire for next year, and for the year after, we will see. But yes, even these tire problems have hurt the fields.

[Bob Devol]

Pinecone:

I raced Club Ford for several seasons, then SRF for six and a half seasons, and then returned to FF this summer.

SRF is a great class and I may even go back there one day, but to try to convince FF guys that SRF is the be-all and end-all is kind of futile.

First off, what you don't understand is that FF guys actually like to work on their cars some. So the maintenance issue is moot in this case. An FF takes about four to six hours more between-race maintenance than an SRF. However, thanks to all those acres of fiberglass, fixing crash damage usually takes a lot more time on an SRF. In fact, a frontal shunt to an SRF takes considerably longer to fix than an FF.

For pure driving pleasure, virtually any FF will beat an SRF. While an SRF is a real racecar that's fun to drive, the sheer joy of actually taking all the corners in the right gear makes a big difference to me. And that's just for starters.

[T.A. Treat]

This could be way out in left field but what about the Toyo tire just locked in for the National Miata class? According to the Novermebr Sports Car article, they did extensive tire testing over multiple days with multiple brands before making the selection. They offer prize money to boot!

I am too lazy to do the research on whether Toyo even makes the same tire for FF but ditching the 5.5 inch rim rule and overhung sidewall could be another benefit.

I took this year off and sold everything. I agree with James, the insane tire expense is silly. I want to come back next year but only if I can force myself to run on 250's. Fat chance of THAT happening.

[Shayne]

Guys, guys, guys!

Come up here and race with us in the Canadian series in '06 with Hankook ZR1 (Radial racing compound tyer) and learn how to control your FF or show your stuff at big events like MTL GP/INDY/Mont-Trembalant.....no need to change your rims or anything......I'm sure hankook will make the tyers available if you guys want to race with them in US as well.......

Shayne

[Pinecone]

Pinecone:

I raced Club Ford for several seasons, then SRF for six and a half seasons, and then returned to FF this summer.

SRF is a great class and I may even go back there one day, but to try to convince FF guys that SRF is the be-all and end-all is kind of futile.

First off, what you don't understand is that FF guys actually like to work on their cars some. So the maintenance issue is moot in this case. An FF takes about four to six hours more between-race maintenance than an SRF. However, thanks to all those acres of fiberglass, fixing crash damage usually takes a lot more time on an SRF. In fact, a frontal shunt to an SRF takes considerably longer to fix than an FF.

For pure driving pleasure, virtually any FF will beat an SRF. While an SRF is a real racecar that's fun to drive, the sheer joy of actually taking all the corners in the right gear makes a big difference to me. And that's just for starters.

Sorry, my intent was not to try to convince people that SRF is the way to go, but to expalin why a lover of open wheel ended up in SRFs instead of FF or CF or FC or CFC or FSCCA.

It was intended to shed some light on possibly why I see 1 -2 FF and maybe 4 FCs at a regional, that starts 30 SRFs.

And I LIKE to work on cars, but have no time. to HAVE to do it. I have worked on cars since building my first car (55 Chevy hot rod, before learning abou being able to turn corners) during the year before I got my drivers license, and have never owned a car that remained stock.

But ti doesn't help when I hear of some new shock that obsoleted every other shock or a new car that obsoleted every other car, etc. I think with SRF they started with an obsolete car in some ways, so there was no where lower to go.

[calracer]

Whats wrong with you guys are you blind.
I run my crossle in Vara and the San Fran region we allways have 20 -32 cars. FF is great fun I can get any part (engine chassis ect..)anytime. Its more bang for you buck and I can work on my own car. I'll take an open wheel car that costs $6500 - $12000 anytime and most of all I have a blast at these races. Try it your like it.

[Joefisherff]

I think they should have approved the use of the Zetec for FF as well in a de-tuned manner. This would provide a stable platform for 3 series, modern technology, durability and a path for a person buying a chassis. Buy a Piper FF with a Zetec engine learn to drive and tune a car progress by adding wings and diffuser and finally have you ECU modified and race in a pro-series. This also assumes we go with a univeral rim width versus continuing with the obsolete cantilever designed FF rear. If we hope to advance open wheel racing you have to give people entering the open wheel community a path and current technology. Keep the Kent around and adjust the ECU mapping on the Zetec to be close on the power adding diversity to the class and providing some investment protection. That's my thoughts.

[Dave Gomberg]

I think they should have approved the use of the Zetec for FF as well in a de-tuned manner. ...

The CRB has received at least one such request already. The advisory committee has recommended that we hold off on such requests until we have more experience with the Zetec in FC. Once the requisite parity between the Pinto and Zetec engines has been achieved, it will make sense to examine similar efforts in other classes. However, rest assured that nothing will change in FF unless a significant majority of the FF community agrees to it.

Dave

[jonbaytos]

Avon ACB-10's and the 1.6 duratec.If your going to change you may as well do something that is already developed.That is unless someone out there is going to shoulder this exspense.Besides you would have 6 new chassis to choose from that have installations.Forget the Zetec,remember there are none left!It has taken 5 years for the Ford 2000 guys to see the light,and they are somewhat less fanatical than the 1600 crowd.