A friend has been waiting for his aluminum head for quite a while.
I was curious what other people have experienced. Who they got them from, how long they waited, the quality and hp numbers, and how much they cost.
We've heard some horror stories, and are begining to wonder.
Thanks.
I waited two years for a head, then Al got approved. Then waited another year for a two and a half less HP head. I don't want to name names but this head was prepped by a VERY reputable shop. Cost is difficult to compute because there was some swaping involved but it was about a grand.
Most of the top national heads come from CCH, Ivey, Butler or my shop, RFD. I can't speak for others but I can offer what we do at my cylinder head shop. CCH and myself are the only two that just port & flow cylinder heads.
Currently turn around on a new race prepped aluminum head is about four to five weeks.
This depends if it's a "no holds barred" national head or a good reagional head.
The begining of the season and right before the Run Offs it's tougher to get work done since we're so booked up.
I would say quality from the major builders, .. Ivey, CCH, RFD, Quicksilver is top notch. ( sorry if I forget somebody )
Our recent dyno tests have shown some of the best HP numbers we have ever seen, .. so the aluminum head is good.
Cost depends on a lot of things, .. time the porter spends on it being the largest expense.
A top national head, new casting, race prepped with valves can go for $3,000 while a race prepped reagional head, new casting, with valves can go for around $2,200.
Most porting shops work based on an hourly shop rate, . so if you're on a budget let them know.
I'll be glad to answer any other questions if I can.
I'm wondering, .. what type of "horror stories" have you herd.
Curtis
[size="1"][ March 28, 2003, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: Curtis Boggs ][/size]Originally posted by fafafine:
A friend has been waiting for his aluminum head for quite a while.
I was curious what other people have experienced. Who they got them from, how long they waited, the quality and hp numbers, and how much they cost.
We've heard some horror stories, and are begining to wonder.
Thanks.
Our aluninum heads come from Arnie Loying. Cost is $2000 for a complete head (as of Sept. 2002). As far as HP, we won the runoffs twice and and were on the pole two or three times over the four years we went there (98-01). The first three years were with cast iron heads and the last year was with an aluminum head. If we were going back again, it would be with an aluminum head. Neil
The horror stories are from people waiting 2 years for an aluminum head. Also, getting no power gains to speak of.
We have begun to hear rumors that depending on who you are and who you know you'll get your head sooner or later. My friend's head has been on order for many months, and, nothing. Some people have gotten their heads already, and have ordered them after...
Next time, I'll make sure he uses RFD or Loyning. Thanks, gentlemen.
Well, we don't do things like that at my shop, ..jobs are put in the order they are received.
I don't know who you are talking about, .. but in their defense, .. most good cylinder head porters are kinda strainge people, .. much like an artist, .. forgetfull, etc.
If your friend isn't happy he should call the person and give them a chance to make it right.
Curtis
I know I am going to start a firestorm with this reply but after a good deal of soul-searching I believe that information that can help other competitors is one of the reasons this board is important. As an intro I have been spinning wrenches on race cars for almost 40 years during which I owned and ran a racing prep shop . I have purchased over the last 3 years three aluminum cylinder heads for ford 1600 engines. Two from CCH and one from Loyning. The first CCH head (non numbered head) was ordered in dec. of 2000 through Andreson Engine Development. Tom Andreson ,( 815-338-3966 )is one of four FF-1600 engine bulders I have worked with. I have found Tom to be very honest but his shop is very busy. The first CCH head produced good HP but it took 11 months to get the head out of CCH. My second CCH aluminum head (cch 1657) was ordered through Andresen on Nov. 15 2001 . This head was delivered the beginning of january 2003 , or almost 14 months later. We find it very frustrating dealing with this type of turn-a-round !!!! My third aluminum head was ordered from Loyning in April of 2002 (Loyning could never identify the head number ). By May of 2002 the new aluminum head was done and on the dyno . Very quick turn-a-round ,but unfortunatly there were problems with this head and it could not be used. In general, my experiences with aluminum heads have been poor at best. Buyer beware is my first advice . My second advice is if you are in the market to buy an aluminum head I would be happy to give you my thoughts off line @ 312-983-8980 . John.
[size="1"][ March 31, 2003, 03:09 PM: Message edited by: J.B.WELCH ][/size]
RFD did my aluminum head and I got it really quick (3 weeks) though it was just after the runoffs and it was created to be used there but wasn't needed. Just before sending it to me Curtis even did an update on the head after finding out some more data when the runoffs were over. Turn around time and customer service from RFD was top notch but I really don't have anyone to compare them against.
The experience was good and he stands behind everything he does.
-Chris
Chris, ..
I can’t thank you enough for the glowing report, .. that was nice.
John,
I think it’s good you bring this up, .. it’s a chance for me as a shop owner to hear how the racers really feel, .. an opening for others to share, .. and opens a discussion about porting shops and what goes on behind the curtain.
Those lead times from CCH do seem a little long, .. OK VERY long. Lead times on ported heads are quite often a few months or more, but I always work out a target date with the customer.
I’m not defending Jim ( CCH ) so please don't read that into my response. I do think those lead times where VERY outrageous.
In my shop a good 1600 head, .. Run Offs quality takes about 30 hours of porting and numerous trips to the flow bench, .. figure another 6 hours in machine work.
Cast Iron heads take longer because they are harder to grind.
Right now there are 12 heads waiting in line, .. as well as the daily season opening refresh work. This time of year and before the Run Offs porters are VERY busy.
Why does it take so long?? Well the number one problem is the casting, .. and it’s NOT just aluminum. During the casting process the sand cores that make up the mold will shift as the molten aluminum is injected into the mold. This causes the ports to be moved around a little, .. they all aren’t in the same place. So when porting each port has to be done according to it’s location. This rules out CnC porting, . so they are all hand ported.
There is also time in other things. I like to buy several sets of valves and flow them into sets. Yes even valves aren’t the same and may flow a little different.
I made a fixture to flow 1600 valves, .. it goes quick but it’s still a day or two putting them into sets. ( I’ve been accused of taking this flow thing too far )
My point to all of this, .. good porting takes time but John it does sound like you where shuffled around. If I couldn’t deliver a head for several months, .. I wouldn’t take your deposit unless you agreed to wait that long.
As for the aluminum head it’s self, .. .I think the aluminum head is the best way to go if your are building a new head. It makes great power and is 18 lbs. lighter. Properly done the Pierce casting is very good, ..
What was wrong with the head Loyning built??
Curtis
I read an article recently about a procedure where some sort of an abrasive grit is pumped through a head to smooth things out.
Can't remember what it was called but they claimed good results.
Anybody know what I'm talking about?
Yep. Extrusion honing. Can be pricey.
http://www.extrudehone.com/automotiveoem.html
tim
Mike,
I've used Extrude hone a few times, ..
it's good for some things, .. but not cylinder head porting.
The primary thing we do porting cylinder heads is change the shape of the port, .. not just smooth it and enlarge it like Extrude hone does.
One major problem with Extrude hone is is polishes the ports, .. polished ports are bad, .. sand rolled with 60 - 80 grit is about the right finish. Too smooth and the fuel seperates and sticks to the port walls.
I've used Extrude hone after porting by hand, .. and it worked ok, .. ..
It's good for FV intakes, ..
Curtis
From the get go, this project was sold as a replacement for heads that were no longer made or over serviced and the alum was to be the more cost effective replacement. There were no direct intentions of making them produce more HP so if that's the reason for the purchase you're missing the point. Granted I've heard too that they now can be made to produce one or two over a good iron head but is $1000per hp really worth it? Maybe to the most extreme competitors but I promise you; if you're a mid packer now, spending $2k here won't put you on the podium. But in some case is sounds like you'll have ample time to think about it....
Todd,
All good points, .. yes the aluminum head was intended as a replacement., .. .. but the porting & race prep costs the same, .. iron or Aluminum.
Todd, .. racers look for every last HP, .. so maybe you are missing the point. Who cares what the intentions where, .. the fact is it makes more power.
You're right too, .. if you are a mid pack racer, .. an aluminum head and a few HP will not make a podium finish. But, .. the difference between a mid pack car and a front running car is in the details.
There is no huge leap in performence once you get mid pack or so, .. it's the collection of a .10 sec. here, .. a .20 sec. there added up to get to the front. If you are getting killed on the straits, .. passed in drag races at the start, ..then yes you may need a new head. One to two HP in a FF or CF is a huge gain.
Simple fact of racing, .. the closer to the front you are, .. the harder the gains are to find, .. the smaller each one is, .. and the more expensive they are.
Curtis
I'm staring down the barrel of a crappy aluminum head situation, but, let me digress.
Last year, I got a newer car. A flash little set up, I'll spare the details, but it's going to be a fairly good ride, now, after all the kinks are worked out. I had no brakes, and only front ones for half of the season. The rear suspension arms were too narrow I found out when I spun it in the Kink at Road America. The front suspension had only .5" of travel upward from horizontal, and, needless to say, caused the car to misbehave slightly. The shocks, who knows. Same with the springs. The engine dynoed at 95hp peak, with a really low average hp.
I ran the season with the above as the car. Scared myself silly, was concussed, but learned a lot. All of this has been taken care of; life is looking good. Everything, that is, except for the aluminum cylinder head for which I've spent thousands. I ordered it in November/early-December. It was supposed to take 6-8 weeks to complete. I was told it shipped 2 weeks ago, today. There is a frustrated engine builder, a prep shop at wits-end, and a lowly Andy Graff who is out some serious cash and left only with stardusted dreams of a formula ford season that would've, could've, should've been interesting.
If I crap in one hand, and hold my aluminum cylinder head in the other which one do you think fills up faster?
I am curious if people have been bumped out of the production order for others, for considerations nefarious, so-to-speak? Normally, I'm reserved, however, I cant help but begin to question aloud why some, and not others?
Glory is fleeting. The champions of today will someday be tending their roses. The champions of tomorrow are those people that, today, are oft overlooked. And we will remember.
Crutis,
I'd tend to agree with most of that except for the fact that many of the club level racers may not see it quite as clearly as you do. They understand the desire to get every last bit they can out of the car (same as the nat's ass drive line things like drilled axles) but they cannot justify the cost of some changes vs. what they have now. Working on between 3-10 CFF here in Phoenix the past couple of years while this part has been available I've not had one person tell me they just 'gotta have it'.
Don't get me wrong, I see the value to the big picture/package, but on the weekend level this cost alone is worth a couple of weekends of racing. I think a lot of folks care about what the intentions were. They were told this part was a replacement part and would not likel offer any HP gain but be CHEAPER in the long run as it was easier to port etc. Your post indicates somewhat the opposite. You stated correctly the time needed to work an iron head (god love ya for doing that!) but the same costs associated with the Alum one? The reality I believe is that it IS easier to port the alum one, BUT the fact that it can be done easier and OVER AND OVER with some grinding and welding etc. makes the head work more of an art. What once took days to change and test now take hours. In this case you and others spend countless amounts of time looking and experimenting on different shapes. Great job in doing so and a plus for the customer, but sadly for the club level racer this only goes to force him to step up to this level.
Please keep up the good work for those who can afford this level of support but don't be down on those who can't see the value of such changes. I've commented a few times that I'd like to see CFF ban this part and still feel this way. This is a win-win for the budget racer. Yes, I know there are those who disagree and want the weight savings and such. At this level though it's less about the weight and more about the cost effectiveness of running a club car. Don't think there are not those out there who look at this and other 'issues' with the class and keep and eye on what is happening in FSCCA.....
Point well made...yet don't you think the hand holding your aluminum cylinder head will smell somewhat fresher?If I crap in one hand, and hold my aluminum cylinder head in the other which one do you think fills up faster?
There's one point that I haven't seen mentioned here - that the weight reduction that goes with the aluminum head at, essentially, the highest part of the car, will reduce weight transfer and will, therefore, improve cornering and braking.
So, it's not only about the HP.
Dave Weitzenhof
ajg:
If indeed your head actually WAS shipped 2 weeks ago, I'd go back to the builder and ask for the tracking number. If they say they ain't got one.............
Say that too loud Dave, and the Comp Board will mandate 15 Lbs of lead bolted to the valve cover!
The main reason we bought an aluminum head was what Super Dave brought up. That and the fact our car was approximately 1120-1122 every time we weighed in. Since my switch to Bud Light didn't bring the desired weight reduction, the aluminum head was the way to go. The fact that we got 3 more HP on the dyno with a CCH aluminum head over a very good iron BLC was a bonus. I was certainly nearer the front at CenDiv nationals than I had been previously (and without pedaling so damn hard!!).
Of course Justin P. won the runoffs with an iron head! The only one in the top ten, I believe.
Competition One Racing
racer6@mchsi.com
Pound for pound I doubt the head was the difference, but if you can really NOW get 3HP out of it that would likely be seen on the end of the long straight.
Todd,
A few things here, .. I don't remember anyone saying this aluminum head was supposed to be cheaper. It was only propsed as a replacement part for something hard to get.Don't get me wrong, I see the value to the big picture/package, but on the weekend level this cost alone is worth a couple of weekends of racing. I think a lot of folks care about what the intentions were. They were told this part was a replacement part and would not likel offer any HP gain but be CHEAPER in the long run as it was easier to port etc. Your post indicates somewhat the opposite. You stated correctly the time needed to work an iron head (god love ya for doing that!) but the same costs associated with the Alum one? The reality I believe is that it IS easier to port the alum one, BUT the fact that it can be done easier and OVER AND OVER with some grinding and welding etc. makes the head work more of an art. What once took days to change and test now take hours.
I also wouldn't say they are easier to port. The port design / shape in the aluminum head is the same as the cast iron. The difference may be aluminum grinds a little easier, .. but this is a small difference if the proper carbide cutters are used.
Iron or aluminum it still takes "days" not hours.
The reason for this has nothing to do with it being cast iron or aluminum and how long it takes to grind metel out. It's all about the time to properly shape each port, ..
As I stated before, .. iron or aluminum, .. the ports are not all in the same place. So when porting, .. I flow each port before I start, .. measure to find locations, .. port and flow each port several times to get them all the same.
It's the time going on & off the flow bench, correcting port locations and getting optimal flow that takes the time.
The performence gains with the aluminum head may have nothing to do with it being aluminum and is more likely just the product of constant development by head porters.
All this being said, .. I hope nobody feels I "look down" on the club guy who can't afford or justify a top national head. Keep in mind I run a FF that I can't afford too, .. so I can relate.
In fact, .. I offered, .. and still offer a "club" level aluminum head, .. but I have NEVER sold one.
Every racer I've talked to wants the fastest they can get. I also will never sacrafice quality for cost.
As a club guy, .. If I wanted or needed a new cylinder head but where low on bucks. I'd have an aluminum head built with the right basic stuff, .. new high quality guides, .. new valves, .. and give the porter a budget for flow work.
Spend $500 on porting now, .. and when you can afford it send the head back for flow updates.
Andy, .. as for your comment about people being "bumped" in the production line. The only time this happens in my shop is when the deposit checks don't show up. I hate to be so blunt about it, ..but some one calls and orders a head, .. promisses a check but never sends it, .. and a week before they need the head wonder why I haven't started on it.
A production schedule based on the deposit date is the only fair way to handle it.
Curtis
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